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Make homophobia unacceptable under the Community Guidelines

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Make homophobia unacceptable under the Community Guidelines

Postby Symmetry on Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:51 pm

Concise description:
Homophobia, like racism, deserves to be listed as unacceptable under the Community Guidelines

Specifics/Details:
  • Homophobia is a form of bigotry. The former guidelines took this into account. The current ones take racism in to account but left out homophobic abuse when they were revised.
  • The removal of homophobic bigotry from the forum guidelines tacitly suggests that CC finds it now to be acceptable
  • Homophobic bigotry is unacceptable, and CC's guidelines should again reflect that.
  • There should be no special exceptions to the rule.

Benefits
  • Site returns to a state where homophobia is considered against the community guidelines
  • Players who want to join know that they are welcome no matter their sexual orientation
  • Guidelines are clear that race is not the only thing that is off limits for bigots.
Last edited by Symmetry on Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby riskllama on Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:56 pm


look sym, kittens!!!
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby mrswdk on Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:16 am

Ditto Trump-phobia, trollphobia, all the phobias.

As Jez said in Peep Show, real multiculturalism is seen when you have the Jews, the blacks and the racists all living happily side-by-side in perfect harmony. Let's end bigot-phobia right here, right now people.
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby betiko on Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:51 am

Why was it so obvious to me that symmetry had started a thread with such title?

I don't really know if something particularly homophobic happened lately on the forums, but 95% of the time it's just you being annoying and over reacting... a bit like owen with black people.
While I agree that some remarks shouldn t be accepted, I think that most of the time you should stop trolling and or grow a thicker skin.
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby Lord Arioch on Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:12 am

context man context ...
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby Symmetry on Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:48 pm

betiko wrote:Why was it so obvious to me that symmetry had started a thread with such title?

I don't really know if something particularly homophobic happened lately on the forums, but 95% of the time it's just you being annoying and over reacting... a bit like owen with black people.
While I agree that some remarks shouldn t be accepted, I think that most of the time you should stop trolling and or grow a thicker skin.


I don't really see the problem with people advocating for causes they believe in. You may consider that to be trolling, and for racist and homophobic attacks to be perfectly justifiable responses that people should simply shrug off, but I don't.

It's good that you sort of agree that some remarks shouldn't be accepted, but you seem to be arguing that people who are targeted by those remarks are to blame. What sort of remarks were you talking about, if not homophobic and racist ones? Or do you only object to people who object to that kind of comment?
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby Metsfanmax on Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:55 am

The previous forum guidelines banned bigotry, defined as including "racism, sexism, ageism, homophobia/sexual orientation bashing, religion bashing, lack of religion bashing, or wishing violence on any group of people, etc." Do you wish CC would return to that stance?
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby Symmetry on Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:15 am

Metsfanmax wrote:The previous forum guidelines banned bigotry, defined as including "racism, sexism, ageism, homophobia/sexual orientation bashing, religion bashing, lack of religion bashing, or wishing violence on any group of people, etc." Do you wish CC would return to that stance?


I'd certainly like to know why only racism was kept (and even then, selectively). I personally think that homophobia and gay bashing are forms of bigotry. I'd be open to hearing people out on other suggestions if they were to make a thread though. It'd be interesting to see what people thought.

My feeling is that the old rules were confusingly written, and often contradictory- I like the idea of an evolving new set of guidelines.

What's your opinion?
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby TeeGee on Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:55 am

Some time ago i asked for all those who wanted to be involved in rewriting the guidelines to put there hand up and get involved.
Everybody that requested to join was added... It took a long time before the current rule set was agreed upon.

Are there gaps? For sure, but the global mod team is small and we do not want to spend hours sifting through reports, especially when most of us have very limited time. That is why you have a FOE function. You can self moderate with it.
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby Symmetry on Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:18 am

TeeGee wrote:Some time ago i asked for all those who wanted to be involved in rewriting the guidelines to put there hand up and get involved.
Everybody that requested to join was added... It took a long time before the current rule set was agreed upon.

Are there gaps? For sure, but the global mod team is small and we do not want to spend hours sifting through reports, especially when most of us have very limited time. That is why you have a FOE function. You can self moderate with it.


I'm not sure what you're saying here, to be honest. You seem to be skirting around giving an opinion. My take is that setting up guidelines and rules is part of an adult society. Simply not talking to people seems a little bit childish, no matter how you dress it up.

I was not aware of a previous community guidelines callout. I am aware of a set of guidelines that recently got re-written to account for bigotry though. I think you might be overplaying the difficulties of changing guidelines.

I realise that the mods are busy, but perhaps clearer guidelines are part of the solution.
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby BoganGod on Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:08 am

TeeGee wrote:Some time ago i asked for all those who wanted to be involved in rewriting the guidelines to put there hand up and get involved.
Everybody that requested to join was added... It took a long time before the current rule set was agreed upon.

Are there gaps? For sure, but the global mod team is small and we do not want to spend hours sifting through reports, especially when most of us have very limited time. That is why you have a FOE function. You can self moderate with it.

Snowflakes don't want to help. Only bleat about a perceived problem that with their perfect vision they have been able to identify. TeeGee you harmful, bigot, excluding Symmetry by not treating him differently to everyone. You should have given our leading melting snowflake a personal invitation in public, so he could find excuses for not helping, and look big, self aware and benevolent.
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby DoomYoshi on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:09 am

Well, I need clear definitions on what homophobia is. Is homophobia a form of bigotry over what people are or what they do? I'm pretty sure most "homophobic" remarks are not about what people are but are rather about the sinful choices they make. It's like if I was "murdering-rapistophobic" (which I am) I would be bigoted towards the actions of murdering rapists and not who they are.

Simply not learning to resist your urges seems a little childish, no matter how you dress it up. I don't pee my pants because I'm an adult living in society, although deep down in the very essential fabric of who I am, I am a pants-peer.
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby riskllama on Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:14 pm

seriously, sym - just report xtra's posts you find offensive/homophobic. the guy's gotta be on thin ice already, i'd think.
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby trapyoung on Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:27 pm

Why not just change the guidelines to prohibit hate speech of any kind? Is there defensible reason to limiting it to that motivated by race? The removal of Flame Wars would seem to suggest the site didn't like that type of speech.

"Foe and move" seems to be the common admonition. But that doesn't change what's been posted on the forum. You leave it up, it normalizes the behavior.
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby DoomYoshi on Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:01 pm

trapyoung wrote:Why not just change the guidelines to prohibit hate speech of any kind? Is there defensible reason to limiting it to that motivated by race? The removal of Flame Wars would seem to suggest the site didn't like that type of speech.

"Foe and move" seems to be the common admonition. But that doesn't change what's been posted on the forum. You leave it up, it normalizes the behavior.


All speech is hate speech. Hate of silence and empty fora.
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby GoranZ on Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:56 am

Symmetry wrote:Concise description:
Homophobia, like racism, deserves to be listed as unacceptable under the Community Guidelines

Specifics/Details:
  • Homophobia is a form of bigotry. The former guidelines took this into account. The current ones take racism in to account but left out homophobic abuse when they were revised.
  • The removal of homophobic bigotry from the forum guidelines tacitly suggests that CC finds it now to be acceptable
  • Homophobic bigotry is unacceptable, and CC's guidelines should again reflect that.
  • There should be no special exceptions to the rule.

Benefits
  • Site returns to a state where homophobia is considered against the community guidelines
  • Players who want to join know that they are welcome no matter their sexual orientation
  • Guidelines are clear that race is not the only thing that is off limits for bigots.

Simpler solution... You being banned. After all you are the biggest bigot in here.
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby Symmetry on Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:09 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Well, I need clear definitions on what homophobia is. Is homophobia a form of bigotry over what people are or what they do? I'm pretty sure most "homophobic" remarks are not about what people are but are rather about the sinful choices they make. It's like if I was "murdering-rapistophobic" (which I am) I would be bigoted towards the actions of murdering rapists and not who they are.

Simply not learning to resist your urges seems a little childish, no matter how you dress it up. I don't pee my pants because I'm an adult living in society, although deep down in the very essential fabric of who I am, I am a pants-peer.


Have you considered consulting a dictionary? If not:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homophobia

irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals


Seems like a fairly clear and simple way to start thinking about the issue.
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby Symmetry on Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:17 pm

trapyoung wrote:Why not just change the guidelines to prohibit hate speech of any kind? Is there defensible reason to limiting it to that motivated by race? The removal of Flame Wars would seem to suggest the site didn't like that type of speech.

"Foe and move" seems to be the common admonition. But that doesn't change what's been posted on the forum. You leave it up, it normalizes the behavior.


The old guidelines kind of did that, but they were a weird mess. I'd rather see a more active discussion of the guidelines building to something. As it stands though, removing homophobia from the community guidelines sends a message that it is now acceptable, and as you say, normalises it.
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby betiko on Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:35 pm

Symmetry wrote:
betiko wrote:Why was it so obvious to me that symmetry had started a thread with such title?

I don't really know if something particularly homophobic happened lately on the forums, but 95% of the time it's just you being annoying and over reacting... a bit like owen with black people.
While I agree that some remarks shouldn t be accepted, I think that most of the time you should stop trolling and or grow a thicker skin.


I don't really see the problem with people advocating for causes they believe in. You may consider that to be trolling, and for racist and homophobic attacks to be perfectly justifiable responses that people should simply shrug off, but I don't.

It's good that you sort of agree that some remarks shouldn't be accepted, but you seem to be arguing that people who are targeted by those remarks are to blame. What sort of remarks were you talking about, if not homophobic and racist ones? Or do you only object to people who object to that kind of comment?


I m against hatefull remarks against homosexuals and people who don't tolerate their existence and the fact that people don't chose to be gay, but I am against banning all sorts of banter against homosexuals. There is banter against lots of groups, why would homosexuality deserve a special treatment?
Like gillipig showing off his wierd sexual orientations (he likes morbidly obese women); it would be fine to express our opinion on that, but not guys who like to be sodomised?
I guess your view would be that we shouldn't be allowed to comment on any of the two, nor to comment on morbidly obese people. Well, I disagree.
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby Symmetry on Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:32 pm

betiko wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
betiko wrote:Why was it so obvious to me that symmetry had started a thread with such title?

I don't really know if something particularly homophobic happened lately on the forums, but 95% of the time it's just you being annoying and over reacting... a bit like owen with black people.
While I agree that some remarks shouldn t be accepted, I think that most of the time you should stop trolling and or grow a thicker skin.


I don't really see the problem with people advocating for causes they believe in. You may consider that to be trolling, and for racist and homophobic attacks to be perfectly justifiable responses that people should simply shrug off, but I don't.

It's good that you sort of agree that some remarks shouldn't be accepted, but you seem to be arguing that people who are targeted by those remarks are to blame. What sort of remarks were you talking about, if not homophobic and racist ones? Or do you only object to people who object to that kind of comment?


I m against hatefull remarks against homosexuals and people who don't tolerate their existence and the fact that people don't chose to be gay, but I am against banning all sorts of banter against homosexuals. There is banter against lots of groups, why would homosexuality deserve a special treatment?
Like gillipig showing off his wierd sexual orientations (he likes morbidly obese women); it would be fine to express our opinion on that, but not guys who like to be sodomised?
I guess your view would be that we shouldn't be allowed to comment on any of the two, nor to comment on morbidly obese people. Well, I disagree.


I think that, in this discussion, you're making a lot of guesses about what I would say, and then arguing against your guesses.

I don't suggest a blanket ban on banter, although I am a bit wary of the term and how it's sometimes used to dismiss bullying in general (but that's more a wider world thing than something CC specific).

Would you be willing to accept a modification to the community guidelines that took that distinction into account- between hateful attacks and harmless banter?
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby BoganGod on Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:06 am

GoranZ wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Concise description:
Homophobia, like racism, deserves to be listed as unacceptable under the Community Guidelines

Specifics/Details:
  • Homophobia is a form of bigotry. The former guidelines took this into account. The current ones take racism in to account but left out homophobic abuse when they were revised.
  • The removal of homophobic bigotry from the forum guidelines tacitly suggests that CC finds it now to be acceptable
  • Homophobic bigotry is unacceptable, and CC's guidelines should again reflect that.
  • There should be no special exceptions to the rule.

Benefits
  • Site returns to a state where homophobia is considered against the community guidelines
  • Players who want to join know that they are welcome no matter their sexual orientation
  • Guidelines are clear that race is not the only thing that is off limits for bigots.

Simpler solution... You being banned. After all you are the biggest bigot in here.

Normally I'm not for banning those that don't agree with me, I like a good argument. I don't however like the mewling, single issue tub bashing of a cut n paste troll who contributes zero to the site. Just self righteously flounces around loudly shouting his/her/zee's opinion on topics of which he/she/zir has no experience, let alone competency to comment. Symmetries very existence on this site has done more damage to gay rights than even the most bigoted and vulgar comment by xbasco or fake bernie. PLAYERS ARE WELCOME, doesn't matter their orientation, every clan I've been in has had at any given time at least 3gay and/or bi players(not including myself). Note the word PLAYER, someone that plays the game. Is here to play the game. A parasitic bleater like Symmetry who does not play the game, should have nothing to do with suggesting anything to do with a site that he/she/zir contributes zero to, and has never contributed to. In the words of Steve Hughes "If you can take a dick in the arse, you can surely take a joke." Asking for gay people to be treated differently is homophobia and bigotry of the highest order. Sick reasoning of this nature is what one would expect from a narcissistic intellectual lightweight.
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:00 am

BoganGod wrote:
GoranZ wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Concise description:
Homophobia, like racism, deserves to be listed as unacceptable under the Community Guidelines

Specifics/Details:
  • Homophobia is a form of bigotry. The former guidelines took this into account. The current ones take racism in to account but left out homophobic abuse when they were revised.
  • The removal of homophobic bigotry from the forum guidelines tacitly suggests that CC finds it now to be acceptable
  • Homophobic bigotry is unacceptable, and CC's guidelines should again reflect that.
  • There should be no special exceptions to the rule.

Benefits
  • Site returns to a state where homophobia is considered against the community guidelines
  • Players who want to join know that they are welcome no matter their sexual orientation
  • Guidelines are clear that race is not the only thing that is off limits for bigots.

Simpler solution... You being banned. After all you are the biggest bigot in here.

Normally I'm not for banning those that don't agree with me, I like a good argument. I don't however like the mewling, single issue tub bashing of a cut n paste troll who contributes zero to the site. Just self righteously flounces around loudly shouting his/her/zee's opinion on topics of which he/she/zir has no experience, let alone competency to comment. Symmetries very existence on this site has done more damage to gay rights than even the most bigoted and vulgar comment by xbasco or fake bernie. PLAYERS ARE WELCOME, doesn't matter their orientation, every clan I've been in has had at any given time at least 3gay and/or bi players(not including myself). Note the word PLAYER, someone that plays the game. Is here to play the game. A parasitic bleater like Symmetry who does not play the game, should have nothing to do with suggesting anything to do with a site that he/she/zir contributes zero to, and has never contributed to. In the words of Steve Hughes "If you can take a dick in the arse, you can surely take a joke." Asking for gay people to be treated differently is homophobia and bigotry of the highest order. Sick reasoning of this nature is what one would expect from a narcissistic intellectual lightweight.


This type of flaming is unacceptable in this forum. If you cannot limit yourself to commenting on the suggestion instead of the person making the suggestion, please choose not to post.
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby mrswdk on Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:54 am

DoomYoshi wrote:
trapyoung wrote:Why not just change the guidelines to prohibit hate speech of any kind? Is there defensible reason to limiting it to that motivated by race? The removal of Flame Wars would seem to suggest the site didn't like that type of speech.

"Foe and move" seems to be the common admonition. But that doesn't change what's been posted on the forum. You leave it up, it normalizes the behavior.


All speech is hate speech. Hate of silence and empty fora.


But isn't silence therefore a hatred of discussion?

Seems like the only way to move forward from here is to delete CC.
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Re: Make homophobia unnaceptable under the Community Guidlin

Postby Symmetry on Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:07 pm

CC did ok with the old guidelines on homophobia in place, so I'm kind of unsure how reinstating a guideline would lead to a CC apocalypse.

Is it a "slippery slope" kind of argument for people?
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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