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Resign button - Extension ( Revised by ADMIN)

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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby Donelladan on Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:17 am

I might be slightly less of a gamer than you ( I don't design game) but I don't do giving up either. Just there is cases in which it simply doesn't make sense.
I am not the kind of people that flip the board when I lose, or stand up and go complaining.
But sometimes it's simply pointless, and boring.
Many people play dozen or even hundreds of games at the same time here on CC. You said don't compare it with chess, then why you compare it with all other kind of games ?
We are on a online website, we want fun, we don't know the people we are facing, when the game is lost and past behind recovery, we think resigning make sense.
I think in 99% of the situation, at least, we'd both agree not to resign.
Just trench is a different thing, because it take ages to finish way after the game is already over.

Game 16114389

You don't think it was worth playing the 20 more turns to finish against GoranZ ?


I've told you before, you don't play enough trench game to understand the feeling of the trench player. I want to resign, but I also want my opponent to resign because I also hate having to clean the map. Resign button is for both side, every regular trench player would tell you so, at least all the ones I ever met here on CC. The resigning player isn't stealing the fun from the winner. It's plainly boring when you are on a feudal epic poly(4)trench, you won, but you always have minimum 15 turns to play before you can actually end the game. Just because of that I actually quit playing feudal epic trench, too long even when I win.
It's the same on spanish armada obviously, I just don't play that one.

Yeah, I do that IRL with my friends. And they are also happy to do so. Some of the most fun moments while playing games are when you are rolling the last dice and they "know" they are dead, and you can enjoy the final moments of victory or you trash talk or make some amazing roll in defense as the loser and it really doesn't matter but you can use it as smack talk as you aren't focused on the game anymore, just enjoying the fun now that its reaching its conclusion.


I still seriously think you are comparing with other settings/game with that sentence not thinking of what's actually happening in a trench 1vs1 situation.
I can't imagine what fun you have with that :
show


But as you said, it's different because you are sitting at a table, with your friends, trash talking. On a 24h trench game, 1vs1 here on CC, you don't trash talk, you just deploy/end click next if you are the loser, deploy/attack/click end, click next if you are the winner. 0% fun !



About me forcing my way and not debating. You can't seriously tell me the previous suggestion topic had no debate in it ? Too bad I can't find it, there was way more than 20 pages of people arguing about it, we were going in a circle.
Just like we're doing here.

I told DJENRE the discussion had already been made because we already have a resign button. We aren't talking about whether we should have a resign button or not ( and thus all my above post is actually pointless sorry). We are talking about extending the same resign button to other settings.

I'd sum up like that. Everyone agree ( ok probably not you IcePack) it make sense to extend the resign button from speed trench 1vs1 and poly to 24h trench 1vs1 and poly.
For team team there is different opinions. I guess we should not do it.
( hope you talked about it with the trench player of FALL, maybe they'd agree with me).
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby Mad777 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:05 am

".....Fallait pas m'inviter....."
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby Donelladan on Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:20 am

Yes Mad, thx, dunno why I didn't find it when I looked for it. 81 pages indeed.
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby Extreme Ways on Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:43 am

Everyone agree ( ok probably not you IcePack) it make sense to extend the resign button from speed trench 1vs1 and poly to 24h trench 1vs1 and poly.

Bold statement. I think both Ice and Keefie dont want a resign button in clangames, and perhaps to an extent tournament games in general. I personally think clan/tribe games are fine, however consider a tribe tournament in which you can help your tribemate by losing vs someone. In this case, there is clear abuse possible. If this is a problem is another point to argue, but purposefully losing is easier with a resign button than without one.

I do think most trench players agree on extending functionality to 24h poly trench. I am not sure about 1v1 trench, since it takes less time to finish.
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby Seinfeld1 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:45 am

I am for the button
It should also be possible to make a button in wich all players at a team must click resign before its activated.
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby IcePack on Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:52 am

Donelladan wrote:I might be slightly less of a gamer than you ( I don't design game) but I don't do giving up either. Just there is cases in which it simply doesn't make sense.
I am not the kind of people that flip the board when I lose, or stand up and go complaining.
But sometimes it's simply pointless, and boring.
Many people play dozen or even hundreds of games at the same time here on CC. You said don't compare it with chess, then why you compare it with all other kind of games ?
We are on a online website, we want fun, we don't know the people we are facing, when the game is lost and past behind recovery, we think resigning make sense.
I think in 99% of the situation, at least, we'd both agree not to resign.
Just trench is a different thing, because it take ages to finish way after the game is already over.

Game 16114389

You don't think it was worth playing the 20 more turns to finish against GoranZ ?


I've told you before, you don't play enough trench game to understand the feeling of the trench player. I want to resign, but I also want my opponent to resign because I also hate having to clean the map. Resign button is for both side, every regular trench player would tell you so, at least all the ones I ever met here on CC. The resigning player isn't stealing the fun from the winner. It's plainly boring when you are on a feudal epic poly(4)trench, you won, but you always have minimum 15 turns to play before you can actually end the game. Just because of that I actually quit playing feudal epic trench, too long even when I win.
It's the same on spanish armada obviously, I just don't play that one.

Yeah, I do that IRL with my friends. And they are also happy to do so. Some of the most fun moments while playing games are when you are rolling the last dice and they "know" they are dead, and you can enjoy the final moments of victory or you trash talk or make some amazing roll in defense as the loser and it really doesn't matter but you can use it as smack talk as you aren't focused on the game anymore, just enjoying the fun now that its reaching its conclusion.


I still seriously think you are comparing with other settings/game with that sentence not thinking of what's actually happening in a trench 1vs1 situation.
I can't imagine what fun you have with that :
show


But as you said, it's different because you are sitting at a table, with your friends, trash talking. On a 24h trench game, 1vs1 here on CC, you don't trash talk, you just deploy/end click next if you are the loser, deploy/attack/click end, click next if you are the winner. 0% fun !



About me forcing my way and not debating. You can't seriously tell me the previous suggestion topic had no debate in it ? Too bad I can't find it, there was way more than 20 pages of people arguing about it, we were going in a circle.
Just like we're doing here.

I told DJENRE the discussion had already been made because we already have a resign button. We aren't talking about whether we should have a resign button or not ( and thus all my above post is actually pointless sorry). We are talking about extending the same resign button to other settings.

I'd sum up like that. Everyone agree ( ok probably not you IcePack) it make sense to extend the resign button from speed trench 1vs1 and poly to 24h trench 1vs1 and poly.
For team team there is different opinions. I guess we should not do it.
( hope you talked about it with the trench player of FALL, maybe they'd agree with me).


Ok - so you find the process pointless and boring. Others dont. Why does your opinion trump theirs? Why can't it be designed where both parties are happy?
Instead as I siad, you are just pushing yours and the rest be damned. If you look through that thread, you'll see we were debating it. Then you walled everyone and it just drowned out any discussion.
But even during the debate, it was you and mets dismissing anyone elses opinion all the way to "its coming and in beta". And during that time you said "dont worry clans not affected" dont worry its only speed, its only this, its only that. Its easy to jump from one to the other now because its implimented, now that you've ignored all the initial apprehension over it.

I did say dont compare to chess, and I didn't compare to "all other kinds of games". I explained my background and then I specifically said it was uncommon in risk games.
I'm glad you are speaking for everyone saying we want fun, so when the resign button ruins fun for someone why aren't you considering them? Because they dont think the same? Or you just dont care baout the other side?

Before you dismiss things like clan games and anything outside of non trench speed, but now you are pushing this for team games, and i assume your next step is to push for all games. So saying / arguing for only trench now no longer is the only thing to discuss, because you clearly aren't staying with the original design arugments and pushing now to further points of the game.

I dont know what Goran thinks, nor am I going to guess for him. Hes a totally different person then I with his own thoughts and opinions. Maybe you should ask him? And the rest of the clan world about what they think about resigning clan games? Ask them to offer their opinion, not their "support" because then you are only looking for people who agree with you. Actually TRY to have a discussion instead of pushing your own way and you might actually hear the other side.

I do understand the feeling of a trench player. Thats like saying someone without kids can't comment on being a parent. Its totally stupid argument. Just because I dont play trench here doesn't mean I haven't before or haven't elsewhere. I understand trench games, and yet you continue to push this point and ignore my responses. It must be easy to dismiss everyone elses opinion to think that everyone supports it when you stop listening to other people.

You seriously think I'm comparing other settings and games with that sentence? Again, instead of listening to me you just assume something that fits your argument stance. Seriously how arrogant is that?
"You cant have meant what you are saying, I know better than you and you must mean something else that doesn't hurt my position as much". Seriously don?

0% fun for you. There are others out there.

We were going in a circle cuz you refuse to actually consider the other side. I've tried multiple times to meet in the middle or find a compromise that works for both. Instead you just push your own way. So yeah, I do think you push it and ignore the rest. There was "some debate" but if you read it, its you and one or two others dismissing anything others brought up just like above.

I think you are wrong to assume everyone agree it makes sense to extend the resign button. But you wont listen to the others anyway, so what does it matter?
For team games there are some other opinions, I agree. The guys in fallen might agree with you, and they are free to do so. I dont speak for them, and maybe you shouldn't speak for "everyone" either.

The central point in my position is, it can be done well, and it can be done where both you and I are able to enjoy the site. But you seem to be ignoring the other people not in line with your position.
Why not focus on a way to move forward where you can have it everywhere, but everyone can enjoy it? instead of having your way and constantly bringing this fight along every time you try to expand it?
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby Donelladan on Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:26 am

Well just to be sure I went and read again all the discussion we had together in the previous topic ( it start bottom of page 73 if you want to do the same).

So :
And during that time you said "dont worry clans not affected" dont worry its only speed, its only this, its only that. Its easy to jump from one to the other now because its implimented, now that you've ignored all the initial apprehension over it.


That's wrong. My initial suggestion was a resign button for every settings, I edited it after a few exchange with you on the topic. Also middle of page 79 I also repeated that I hope that after testing the resign button for speed trench we could extend it further. Hence my suggestion here.

I dont know what Goran thinks, nor am I going to guess for him


You've read me too fast, I wasn't asking you what GoranZ thinks, I was using a game you had against GoranZ that you deadbeated, thus proving my point it's not fun to play it out and it's so boring even you decided to deadbeat.


The central point in my position is, it can be done well, and it can be done where both you and I are able to enjoy the site. But you seem to be ignoring the other people not in line with your position.
Why not focus on a way to move forward where you can have it everywhere, but everyone can enjoy it? instead of having your way and constantly bringing this fight along every time you try to expand it?


Are you speaking of DJENRE suggestion that the resignation should be accepted by the opponent ?If so, just so you know,in the previous thread I actually wrote that I didn't care and that I was fine with such a resign button. It's not what was implemented but it's not my doing.
I also wished that the resignation was possible round 4 but it was decided round 10 for 1vs1 and round 6 for poly ( way to late in the game imho).

But to me, that's off topic now because button is here thus I only suggest we extend it, not modify it. If we want to modify the already existing button, I think we should create another suggestion. That's what I mean to say to DJENRE.


The guys in fallen might agree with you, and they are free to do so. I dont speak for them, and maybe you shouldn't speak for "everyone" either.

Well I didn't mean you are talking for FALL, I just meant that maybe they would convince you because you are closer to them than me.
Also I don't mean to speak for everyone, only for everyone that support the resign button and its extension.

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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby DJENRE on Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:45 am

Hello Donelladan, Hello Ice,

I was thinking about not telling anymore thought about this resign until I've been quoted several times by both of you. :D
Indeed, I spoke with you both a lot by Pm about thisresign, trying to found a suitable solution for all CC players.
As you're representing the two sides of the Force! ;)
It seems it's an endless war beetween you.

For me the resign button is sooooooooooooo helpfull and should be extended for sure, also many players are waiting for it.
I understand Donelladan who said that it was already a huge process to get this resign button.
Change it to another system (I mean Resign + Accept resign) would not be difficult to implement but difficult only because it's CC.
I don't even know who take care of that on CC. :idea: Maybe this person could give his thought too.

When I read your posts, I keep thinking it could be the middle solution for all. Or at least the better solution to end this discussion beetween you both. Maybe I'm wrong.
Like I told Done, I won't use the accept resign I presume. If a player want to resign, I'll accept for 99% of my games.
Actually, I have like 60 games trench ongoing, and most of them are already over even if we keep playing for nothing...... or deadbeating......
But I understand some players (like ICE) would like to have the opportunity to accept or not the resign.

I also understand that the 'format' of this resign button has already been discussed (I won't feed the debate on how it's been discussed and voted).
But maybe this first resign button was a kind of testing. It works, but it can be updated to a better one (wich suits more players).
Also, now the players have tested this resign during speed games, they maybe have changed their mind.
You could organize another vote too if needed (I'm not sure a vote is the proper solution, when looking at the previous posts but...)

So I have only one question for you :
Done, would you agree to re-think about this new format (Resign + Accept Resign)? Or it's 200% over for technical (or other) reasons. (It seems you accepted it in a previous thread).
And ICE, if so, would you agree for this resign to be extended this way?
If we have two YES there, maybe you could start working together.

:-$ :-$ :-$ :-$ This will be my last post into this thread. I don't want to be in trouble with one of you while trying to help.
I'm sure you'll found a suitable solution for all.
I'm just waiting for the resign to be extended quickly.
Take care. :D
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby Donelladan on Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:20 am

I am not against such a modification. I think it deserves another suggestion thread though, and serious discussion.
The first reason I campaigned for a resign button it's because of the deadbeating that went out of control in speed game, for such setting (speed), refusing the resign would probably simply lead to your opponent deadbeat, thus it wasn't suitable anyway.
For 24h game it is another story. I personally don't really care.
I think vast majority of people will accept the resign. I think that those refusing will probably expose themselves to some trash talking unless they explain their refusal in the chat. I am not 100% sure it's a good idea. But I think we can try and see how it works.
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby betiko on Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:25 am

resigning in chess is perfectly within the rules... i'm not going to bother reading all this text....
just tell me why it s ok in professional chess to resign once you're done, but not ok in an online risk platform?
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby IcePack on Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:08 am

DJENRE
That is the compromise I’ve suggested for awhile now. I’ve already exchanged pm with Donelladan and my thoughts on it in detail. The ones pushing for resign and expansion don’t care enough about the others, as you can see from the reactions above.
As I told Donelladan, I’m already resigned (haha) to accept that this is going to happen and he will push its expansion to more / all games. I stated in the last thread, and others and explained to don that once that happens it’ll be my last day on the site.

Betiko - it’s ok in professional chess - to compare professional sports have a draft for players so we should accept that model? No, if we wanted to play chess where that’s common we’d be on a chess site. It’s not common in Risk (or other board games) so why does chess model take precedent? Only cuz it fits the narrative
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby Extreme Ways on Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:00 pm

IcePack wrote:DJENRE
That is the compromise I’ve suggested for awhile now. I’ve already exchanged pm with Donelladan and my thoughts on it in detail. The ones pushing for resign and expansion don’t care enough about the others, as you can see from the reactions above.

Thanks

Betiko - it’s ok in professional chess - to compare professional sports have a draft for players so we should accept that model? No, if we wanted to play chess where that’s common we’d be on a chess site. It’s not common in Risk (or other board games) so why does chess model take precedent? Only cuz it fits the narrative

Not that the whole chess-analogy is important, but low-level chess players forfeit a lot as well. The amount you have to be behind for you to think "I can't win this anymore" just changes. When I play vs bad players and am a piece behind I'll continue, if I blunder a piece and my overall position is in shambles I'll just forfeit.
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby IcePack on Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:16 pm

Donelladan wrote:I am not against such a modification. I think it deserves another suggestion thread though, and serious discussion.
The first reason I campaigned for a resign button it's because of the deadbeating that went out of control in speed game, for such setting (speed), refusing the resign would probably simply lead to your opponent deadbeat, thus it wasn't suitable anyway.
For 24h game it is another story. I personally don't really care.
I think vast majority of people will accept the resign. I think that those refusing will probably expose themselves to some trash talking unless they explain their refusal in the chat. I am not 100% sure it's a good idea. But I think we can try and see how it works.


It was implimented for speed game trench because of desdbeating yes. As you said it’s not the same reason for 24 hour trench. So the accept button is relevant to this discussion not a separate discussion. You are now expanding beyond the original concept and justification completely.

1vs1 and poly do not have the same chronic deadbeat problem that speed trench did. Neither does team games which you included in your OP.
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:56 pm

betiko wrote:resigning in chess is perfectly within the rules... i'm not going to bother reading all this text....
just tell me why it s ok in professional chess to resign once you're done, but not ok in an online risk platform?


We need to stop having this debate, because it has already concluded. The people who were against the concept of resigning on CC lost. Continuing the debate for no reason creates complications when none need to exist.

The only purpose of this thread is to discuss what the proper game conditions are for when the resign option should be available. Any argument against extending it to other options, that relies primarily on the argument that we shouldn't have the resign option, is faulty and should be disregarded. The only valid arguments at this time are ones that discuss why it shouldn't exist in particular game options, due to possibilities for abuse or other bad consequences within those game options. I urge you all not to engage in any discussion on any other point.
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby IcePack on Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:03 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
betiko wrote:resigning in chess is perfectly within the rules... i'm not going to bother reading all this text....
just tell me why it s ok in professional chess to resign once you're done, but not ok in an online risk platform?


We need to stop having this debate, because it has already concluded. The people who were against the concept of resigning on CC lost. Continuing the debate for no reason creates complications when none need to exist.

The only purpose of this thread is to discuss what the proper game conditions are for when the resign option should be available. Any argument against extending it to other options, that relies primarily on the argument that we shouldn't have the resign option, is faulty and should be disregarded. The only valid arguments at this time are ones that discuss why it shouldn't exist in particular game options, due to possibilities for abuse or other bad consequences within those game options. I urge you all not to engage in any discussion on any other point.


The original thread covered only speed trench. This is now getting expanded FAR beyond the original debate. So has nothing to do with who won or lost. It is regarding the other game types and not about speed + trench anymore.

Purpose of this thread is to bring up support, opposition, or concerns with the expansion. It’s not just defined by you (thank god). You are good at dismissing and disregarding others opinions but that doesn’t mean others should. But arguments are valid whether you say they are or not
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby Donelladan on Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:39 am

Suggestion edited.
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby Extreme Ways on Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:10 pm

While I commend the proposals to get closer to eachother, I dont think an "accept resign" button makes much sense. In a way, doesn't refusing a surrender mean you're holding hostage? I like the idea, but I dont think it fairs well with the current rules in place.

Thoughts on this matter?
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby IcePack on Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:14 pm

Extreme Ways wrote:While I commend the proposals to get closer to eachother, I dont think an "accept resign" button makes much sense. In a way, doesn't refusing a surrender mean you're holding hostage? I like the idea, but I dont think it fairs well with the current rules in place.

Thoughts on this matter?


It’s no more holding hostage then resigning = deadbeating.
Holding hostage is when you vastly outnumber opponents and just stack
Instead of finishing. Resigning can be done much earlier.
Holding hostage is also generally vs freemium in which game slots are taken up.
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby Extreme Ways on Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:55 pm

IcePack wrote:
Extreme Ways wrote:While I commend the proposals to get closer to eachother, I dont think an "accept resign" button makes much sense. In a way, doesn't refusing a surrender mean you're holding hostage? I like the idea, but I dont think it fairs well with the current rules in place.

Thoughts on this matter?


It’s no more holding hostage then resigning = deadbeating.
Holding hostage is when you vastly outnumber opponents and just stack
Instead of finishing. Resigning can be done much earlier.
Holding hostage is also generally vs freemium in which game slots are taken up.

Personally I won't mind if someone won't resign or accept my resign, however I could understand if freemiums would get mad if the oppo wouldnt accept a resign. In that case I'd rather not have a button at all, because it takes away an option you thought/hoped you had.
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby DJENRE on Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:24 pm

Donelladan wrote:EDIT :
"Accept button"
( accepting opponent's resignation )

=D> I'm 100% for it (to suit most of the players).
Extreme Ways wrote:however I could understand if freemiums would get mad if the oppo wouldnt accept a resign.

They have to buy PREMIUM :lol: :lol:
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby grt on Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:42 pm

I would like to see the resign button for 24hr trench games - it's a pain to keep playing when it is clearly over. I have many such examples which have gone on for weeks when the game is already over.
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby groovysmurf on Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:50 pm

I am 100% against having any kind of resign option in team/clan games. If this is available, there will never be a "clean" win or a true victor. For one thing, in most cases, not all members would agree to resign and one may be pressured into it by his teammates. Even if all members of a team agree to resign, there can never be a true win. When I play a game, I want to win with no ambiguity, not because my opponent surrenders. Playing an extra 10 rounds (or more) of a game in order to declare an actual winner is completely worth it, in my opinion.
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby Extreme Ways on Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:00 pm

groovysmurf wrote:I am 100% against having any kind of resign option in team/clan games. If this is available, there will never be a "clean" win or a true victor. For one thing, in most cases, not all members would agree to resign and one may be pressured into it by his teammates. Even if all members of a team agree to resign, there can never be a true win. When I play a game, I want to win with no ambiguity, not because my opponent surrenders. Playing an extra 10 rounds (or more) of a game in order to declare an actual winner is completely worth it, in my opinion.

Do you differentiate between clan and tournament games? Because that might be hard to implement.
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby groovysmurf on Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:23 pm

Extreme Ways wrote:Do you differentiate between clan and tournament games? Because that might be hard to implement.

I don't think it should be available on ANY clan or tournament games or ANY 24 hr team games at all.
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Re: Resign button - Extension

Postby Donelladan on Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:13 pm

groovysmurf wrote: For one thing, in most cases, not all members would agree to resign


Hello,
would you care to explain such a surprising comment ? Because if you took time to read all the posts in this topic, you may have noticed I said exactly the contrary.

groovysmurf wrote:] one may be pressured into it by his teammates.


Just like for the previous one I'd be really surprised to see that. I played lot of tournament, clan and regular game. With people I know and with people I don't know.
Playing with team game people I know ( clanmate ) it absolutely never ever happen to me that we had a disagreement about when a game is lost.
Playing with team game people I don't know in the vast majority of case I never had problem either. But when my teammates decided to give up without my agreement, well they did so already. They did NOT need a resign button, they just stop trying to win and game was lost no matter what.

Everything you are accusing a resign button to provoke in team game, actually already can and does happen without a resign button. For example :

groovysmurf wrote:When I play a game, I want to win with no ambiguity, not because my opponent surrenders.


People already surrender, they already stop trying to win, often if not always before the end of the game ( except in escalating game ofc).

For example, this game that you played :
Game 17762307 you said gg, 3 days before you actually won. So you knew you won way before game was over, without any ambiguity.

It seems to me, you think people will just start quitting game for no reason if we implement a resign button. But I don't see why they would. They will keep trying to win, because that's simply what everyone does when they play a risk game.

THe resign button is to be able to avoid those last useless turns in trench game like for example :
Game 17743296

Didn't you give up in this game several days before it actually finished ?
That is the purpose of the resign button.


Also, and that's the most important point really : People already give up trying to win and we don't have a resign button. Resign button doesn't make people stop trying to win. It simply end the game faster when they already decided do to so.



And thus, really, sorry but saying because people "resigned" it's not a clean win or a true victor is really wrong, because people already give up, don't you accept your win when they do ?
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