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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby IcePack on Sat May 19, 2012 10:25 pm

Its not CL5, does CL have upgrade / downgrade each year? No...they have assignments to Group A B C D etc for placement into divisions afterwards.

This is based on yearly results and x clans move up, and x clans move down etc.

Although I would like to see a clan "playoff" at the end of sorts, maybe top 4 in Premier, top 2 in first and second league?

Angola, as far as other leagues i was refering to qwert's here, eddie2 is talking about a league, we just started the ICL...thats 3 leagues discussing start ups / rules within a couple months.

While i understand not everyone needs to sign up for every event, at some point they lose the excitement factor when all clans are choosing between 3-4 different leagues and not filling up.

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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby xman5151 on Sat May 19, 2012 10:41 pm

I do like this idea for a league a lot - as for the ICL I would be fine with some kinda merger with this, or however you guys are looking at doing it, I agree having too many of these leagues does take out some of the excitement factor, at some point.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby IcePack on Sat May 19, 2012 10:56 pm

I think my changes to the suggestion would be this:

Premier League: top 12
First League: 13-24
Second League: 25-36

I would add a playoff (even if its technically a seperate "event") that includes top 4 of Premier, top 2 of First and Second League.

I would downgrade bottom 3 Premier's each year.
I would downgrade bottom 3 First each year.
I would upgrade top 2 from First each year to Premier.
I would upgrade top 1 from Second each year to Premier (to make room for hot new clans or something, ex: the pack)
I would upgrade #2, and 3 from Second each year to First.

These are my suggestions. I also like jefjef's about map usage and a few other things maybe (unlimited forts, nukes, with some restrictions? maybe like % of overall games) but those are final points of the league. This is big picture post (mainly).

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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby chapcrap on Sat May 19, 2012 11:10 pm

I agree with Ice mostly.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby stahrgazer on Sun May 20, 2012 12:48 am

Chariot of Fire wrote: Every map on CC is to be used, and once only. This would really decide who is the best 'all round' clan on CC.


No. A "best 2 of 3" or "best 3 of 5" games on a same map is more likely to separate luck from skill, which would require each map on CC used 3 to 5 times to get to your "best all around clan on CC," if that's what you're aiming for.

Pretty lengthy, but more accurate than 1 game per map. So, if you're not going to do 3 to 5 games per map, then a reasonable setup like qwert has provided, that provides a systematic method for moving up and down league divisions (as opposed to a popularity vote) can work pretty well to identify top clans.

IcePack wrote:I think my changes to the suggestion would be this:

Premier League: top 12
First League: 13-24
Second League: 25-36

I would add a playoff (even if its technically a seperate "event") that includes top 4 of Premier, top 2 of First and Second League.


Seems unreasonable introduce a playoff between the top of the next lower league, with a separation of 8 to 13 clans between premier/first, and 11-13 clans between first and second league.

If you must have playoffs between divisions, shouldn't those playoffs be the bottom of the next higher league (those slated to degrade) vs the top of the next lower league (those slated to upgrade) ?
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby uckuki on Sun May 20, 2012 1:00 am

can you do a survey on nukes? I'm sure plenty of clan people like playing nukes.

I don't see 1 good reason why not allow them. I understand that some people
like doing the same old thing over and over, but they should not get a
preference over those who like to have fun. the argument that nukes favor luck
element is the silliest thing I have heard on this site. last time I checked, the
game when you throw dice is by very definition a game of chance. saying that
luck plays bigger role in nukes than in other spoils (flat or escalating) is just
nonsense. how many games are decided by someone having 2 pairs or a 3 carder at
crucial point in game: good chunk at the least.

vote for nukes is vote for fun.

nukes nukes nukes
:)
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby angola on Sun May 20, 2012 1:21 am

I agree with uckuki, a straight vote should be taken on nukes. I would much rather ban flat rate than nukes. Flat rate is luckier than nukes.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby ViperOverLord on Sun May 20, 2012 2:00 am

My only issue with the initial proposal (and someone can correct me if I have this wrong) is the initial placement of teams in the various tiers. I think the rankings are somewhat arbitrary and subject relative to how good a clan currently is. I think that there's plenty of teams that would start in the second tier that think they are good enough to be in the first tier and plenty of clans that start in the third tier that think they're good enough to start in the second tier.

I would like to see an initial qualification process put into place; and something with a critical mass of games that it's not flukey.

However (and I need to learn the details better), if proposals are accepted that include second/third tier teams in the playoffs then I think that's not so much of an issue.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Crarg on Sun May 20, 2012 3:39 am

I think this is really great idea.

Regarding the process of selecting the initial leagues we can only go on the rankings we have. It would not make sense to have a whole bunch of qualifications or even a once off qualification to select the different tiers. In a league format the best always rise to the top as it is consistency that wins a league.

When new clubs enter leagues, they enter at the bottom no matter how good they are. It may take them a year or two but they will get there.

I really don't beleive we need to have playoff's either because as mentioned earlier the winner should be the most consistent team of the year and not rely on a once off game/war to win. The only playoff that may be considered is the promotion relegation game between the 2nd/3rd last of the higher league against the 2nd/3rd placed team of the lower division looking for promotion. The rest should be automatic promotions and relegations.

This format can also run for a calendar year and ending with a clear Clan champion each year.

There are way more pro's than cons on this idea and I think it should be investigated fully and replace the other league formats we currently have.

There can also be a cup competition running that is a once off war each round and will allow the smaller clans to compete with the big boys every now and then, but the league will remain the pinnacle of everything. As the smaller clans gets bigger and more experienced they will move up and start getting promoted to the higher leagues.

Good idea Qwert and I really hope this gets off the ground.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Chariot of Fire on Sun May 20, 2012 9:17 am

Say, for instance......

Each division has 20 clans.

There are 195 official maps + 14 beta maps

A clan sets up 11 home games once every 2 weeks

A clan joins 11 away games once every 2 weeks (the week in between the home games)

A map can only be used once

This means

The league runs over 38 weeks (longer if holiday breaks are included)

A clan will play 209 home games, each on a different map, and 209 away games, also each on a different map (so most maps will be played twice, with home & away settings)

Home 'advantage' is therefore just choosing type & settings, e.g trips esc adjacent fog (plus of course picking the right map for the opponents you are about to face)

Random is not an option

This is how a league should be. A decent number of games over a whole season and being tested on every map CC has to offer.

Thus we can determine league champions (CC Clan League) and cup champions (Conqueror's Cup) each calendar year, and these would be the 2 big events for every clan to participate in.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby freakns on Sun May 20, 2012 9:37 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:Say, for instance......

Each division has 20 clans.

There are 195 official maps + 14 beta maps

A clan sets up 11 home games once every 2 weeks

A clan joins 11 away games once every 2 weeks (the week in between the home games)

A map can only be used once

This means

The league runs over 38 weeks (longer if holiday breaks are included)

A clan will play 209 home games, each on a different map, and 209 away games, also each on a different map (so most maps will be played twice, with home & away settings)

Home 'advantage' is therefore just choosing type & settings, e.g trips esc adjacent fog (plus of course picking the right map for the opponents you are about to face)

Random is not an option

This is how a league should be. A decent number of games over a whole season and being tested on every map CC has to offer.

Thus we can determine league champions (CC Clan League) and cup champions (Conqueror's Cup) each calendar year, and these would be the 2 big events for every clan to participate in.

wrong
this means every clan would play 209 home games, each on different map, but your away games are not necessary on different maps. you can get to play Luxemburg quads 19 times, if your opponents chose so...
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Chariot of Fire on Sun May 20, 2012 10:06 am

true....this could happen (unlikely of course, but feasible). All that really matters is each clan HAS TO pick 209 different maps for its home games.

Think of the fun it would be picking the set of 11 maps for each clan you have to play against, instead of just churning out the same old standard home maps week after week.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby freakns on Sun May 20, 2012 10:14 am

oh, i can agree with it, i just said youd probably face some maps 5-6 times as away team, and some youll never see... im sure TOFU wouldnt get Ardennes, KORT wouldnt get First Nation, PACK wouldnt get Middle Ages, and so on and so on...
but bottom line is, as you said, you will at the end of day play 209 different maps... that would surely give better picture who is best clan(although, if you ask me, im sure same 5 clans would come on top as they are now :D)
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby MudPuppy on Sun May 20, 2012 11:27 am

qwert wrote:
by MichelSableheart » Sat May 19, 2012 11:27 am

I like the idea of a promotion/degradation league system, but I have some doubts whether it's maintainable. My main concern is the stability of the clan world. With a season lasting a year, I'm affraid we may see more changes then a promotion/degradation system can handle. Clans split, fall apart, new clans are formed, clans can pick up a set of strong players...

If I remember correctly, Tofu had to start in the bottom division as a new clan in CL2, but due to it's roster everyone knew that they would trounce that division. Similar problems may happen in this structure, where new but very good clans get paired against the weakest clans around. Also, what would happen if one of the top clans in the premier division disbanded?

In footbal, a promotional/degradational system works because you can be reasonably sure that teams won't vary in strength too much from season to season.
I like the idea of a promotion/degradation league system, but I have some doubts whether it's maintainable. My main concern is the stability of the clan world. With a season lasting a year, I'm affraid we may see more changes then a promotion/degradation system can handle. Clans split, fall apart, new clans are formed, clans can pick up a set of strong players...

If I remember correctly, Tofu had to start in the bottom division as a new clan in CL2, but due to it's roster everyone knew that they would trounce that division. Similar problems may happen in this structure, where new but very good clans get paired against the weakest clans around. Also, what would happen if one of the top clans in the premier division disbanded?

In footbal, a promotional/degradational system works because you can be reasonably sure that teams won't vary in strength too much from season to season.
----------------------------------------
Im aware of this, but we will build rules for to also.

I too have concerns about the problems of a straight promotion/demotion league format being able to adequately keep up to date with the dynamic shifts of strength in the clan world. I think any rules built to reduce this risk would be little more than a bandaid for an inherently flawed approach. I'd much prefer a tournament where everyone enters the year at the same level.

Perhaps something along the lines of a modified CL4 with just two phases: the first to determine league placement and second would be straight league play to determine the winner of each league. Having just two phases would allow more games in the first phase which would reduce chances of having a clan placed incorrectly due to a relatively short streak of good or bad luck. It would almost certainly lead to placement of clans which more accurately represents their current level of strength.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Chariot of Fire on Sun May 20, 2012 11:51 am

MP makes a good point. Have to say, part of the pleasure of the current CL4 was the ability to face clans we otherwise would not have done. So an 'equal footing for all' each season is a good & fair principle. I expect a lot of clans also don't want to be facing the same ones year after year which would happen if we pigeonhole clans into divisions.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Sniper08 on Sun May 20, 2012 11:56 am

MudPuppy wrote:I too have concerns about the problems of a straight promotion/demotion league format being able to adequately keep up to date with the dynamic shifts of strength in the clan world. I think any rules built to reduce this risk would be little more than a bandaid for an inherently flawed approach. I'd much prefer a tournament where everyone enters the year at the same level.

Perhaps something along the lines of a modified CL4 with just two phases: the first to determine league placement and second would be straight league play to determine the winner of each league. Having just two phases would allow more games in the first phase which would reduce chances of having a clan placed incorrectly due to a relatively short streak of good or bad luck. It would almost certainly lead to placement of clans which more accurately represents their current level of strength.


but every clan isnt the same level, some are clearly better than others, so a league format is a great way to solve the divide in strength the lower clans can face similar strength clans and improve/

the CL system as it is currently is not a league and is in no way shape or form could become a true league. promotion/demotion type is the best league and is long overdue in CC clan world. we finally have enough clans to make a good two teir league.

Chariot of Fire wrote:MP makes a good point. Have to say, part of the pleasure of the current CL4 was the ability to face clans we otherwise would not have done. So an 'equal footing for all' each season is a good & fair principle. I expect a lot of clans also don't want to be facing the same ones year after year which would happen if we pigeonhole clans into divisions.


that might be the trade off we face in order to get a true league but there is the CCup to face those clans we wouldnt normally face.

Chariot of Fire wrote:Say, for instance......

Each division has 20 clans.

There are 195 official maps + 14 beta maps

A clan sets up 11 home games once every 2 weeks

A clan joins 11 away games once every 2 weeks (the week in between the home games)

A map can only be used once

This means

The league runs over 38 weeks (longer if holiday breaks are included)

A clan will play 209 home games, each on a different map, and 209 away games, also each on a different map (so most maps will be played twice, with home & away settings)

Home 'advantage' is therefore just choosing type & settings, e.g trips esc adjacent fog (plus of course picking the right map for the opponents you are about to face)

Random is not an option

This is how a league should be. A decent number of games over a whole season and being tested on every map CC has to offer.

Thus we can determine league champions (CC Clan League) and cup champions (Conqueror's Cup) each calendar year, and these would be the 2 big events for every clan to participate in.


im not in favour of this as there are just too many straight forward maps where luck/drop and who goes first will win it without strategy. afterall the champions should be the best not the luckiest.

limiting selection of maps to lets say 2 - 4 - 5(up for debate) for all game types so minimun 40 different maps,max 100 maps(if 200 home map season) for a season if a 20 clan league system is in place.i think its the best compromise . that way dumb maps wont be a factor and there is a little flexibilty for clans in choosing but it also would force clans to move out of there comfort zone

also something which i dont think has been discussed will this league allow trench games? and if so will it be limited like map selection?
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Crazyirishman on Sun May 20, 2012 12:03 pm

One things that I would like to see allowed is trench, it seems like nobody has any love for it. There are some maps where it changes the strategy completely and I'd like to be able to use it in clan league (not sure how others feel about this, I may be on my own lil' island).
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby IcePack on Sun May 20, 2012 12:06 pm

I would be in favor ultimately of allowing nuke, trench, and unlimited but say they can't be used more then X % of the time. Where X is decided by someone other then me :D

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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby cookie0117 on Sun May 20, 2012 12:56 pm

You would have to limit trench or the leagues would take years to finish!!

Also a league where you know where your playing next year is a much easier to follow and plan for competition. Also a larger game set against each competitor will give a more accurate result.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby uckuki on Sun May 20, 2012 1:04 pm

trench and unlimited are tricky settings. they can be used, though I'd suggest different limitations:
not the number of games they can be used it but the type of maps.

Trench: definitely impractical for large maps. it's impossible to make chain kill with esc spoils. I'm playing few of those
and it feels they'll take a year to finish. Suggested limit would be something like: Trench can only be used in
maps with total number of terrs of 35 or less. that would guarantee games wouldn't stall the progression
of the league.

Unlimited: also impractical for large maps, gives advantage to whoever goes first. I suggest similar limit like
with trench: Unlimited setting can only be used in maps with total number of terrs 45 or less.

something like that. I'm not sure what number of maps would be available. numbers of terrs are approximate,
could be few more or less.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Sniper08 on Sun May 20, 2012 1:10 pm

cookie0117 wrote:You would have to limit trench or the leagues would take years to finish!!


round limits?
IcePack wrote:I would be in favor ultimately of allowing nuke, trench, and unlimited but say they can't be used more then X % of the time. Where X is decided by someone other then me :D

IcePack


lets stick to trench for the minute , i agree that it would have to be limited but to what extent, no one has used it for a clan war yet to my knowledge so we dont have any prescendent to it likely frequence to show up. i would assume atleast 10% of games would be trench so limit it to idk 25% of all games(50 by 20 league system) and 20%(2 of 10) of the home games each week?
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Crazyirishman on Sun May 20, 2012 1:19 pm

If trench is allowed, its not like people are going to go batshit and make every game of there's trench, much like in clan wars, clans don't make every game unlimited, as a smaller % of people prefer those settings. round limits could also be used to make sure those games don't drag on forever.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby stahrgazer on Sun May 20, 2012 1:22 pm

Well, one thing that could solve all the problems is to require that x% (some small percent, or one game) of each round be one of the odd settings, like unlimited, like trench, like nuclear, perhaps on a map of the leaguemaker's choice rather than the teams' choices. (Not dissimilar from some tournaments or past league play that added W2.1 quads as a required tiebreaker)

This way, these unusual settings could be included, which is "fair" considering these are valid settings on Conquer Club which means folks are playing them, which means identifying who's good and who's not, is fair to determine in league play.

And having the leaguemaker determine which map(s) get thrown in for those unusual settings eliminates some of the problems of folks choosing a map that totally skews the play.

Well. The problem then is, aren't there rules in place, that tournaments and etc. cannot use those sorts of settings if they want medals to be awarded?
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Qwert on Sun May 20, 2012 5:35 pm

Ok ,people i implement some things,
First i remove second league, and this will be Qualification tournament ,where will play Bracket system competition all clans who are not ranked in first 28 positions, also in this Qualification tournament will play all new formed clans.
Second- reduce Premier and First LEague to 14 teams each, and this is last reasonable number for any kind of normal League.
Third-League will be played like real league, round robin system- 14 teams- 26 weeks, plus 10 free weeks,where you will not need to create any games if we get some holidays or some other things, so this mean that each week Home team need to create 2 doubles-2 triple and 2 quads game. Total duration of league 36 weeks.
Promotion -relegation, now its reduced to 3 teams promotion-3 teams relegation. Im totaly against play offs, because this give chance to team who are play so bad, that in one match ,manage to again stay in League.
Well this its small move,and i see that more and more things come.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby AgentSmith88 on Sun May 20, 2012 5:52 pm

IcePack wrote:I would be in favor ultimately of allowing nuke, trench, and unlimited but say they can't be used more then X % of the time. Where X is decided by someone other then me :D

IcePack


You won't find much support for this, especially among the elite clans. They got to where they are using the older settings, so adding in new ones don't usually fly. Ultimately, there is no good reason for disallowing any settings other than freestyle and speed (due to time constraints of the players being a factor). Yes, things like trench would drag games out, but how can you say a clan is the best when they refuse to play half the settings available. And I agree with what someone posted earlier; flat rate probably involves more luck than nukes does, but it is still allowed.

And I knew nobody would go for the all random approach. At least I tried. :roll:
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