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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Sniper08 on Sun May 20, 2012 11:56 am

MudPuppy wrote:I too have concerns about the problems of a straight promotion/demotion league format being able to adequately keep up to date with the dynamic shifts of strength in the clan world. I think any rules built to reduce this risk would be little more than a bandaid for an inherently flawed approach. I'd much prefer a tournament where everyone enters the year at the same level.

Perhaps something along the lines of a modified CL4 with just two phases: the first to determine league placement and second would be straight league play to determine the winner of each league. Having just two phases would allow more games in the first phase which would reduce chances of having a clan placed incorrectly due to a relatively short streak of good or bad luck. It would almost certainly lead to placement of clans which more accurately represents their current level of strength.


but every clan isnt the same level, some are clearly better than others, so a league format is a great way to solve the divide in strength the lower clans can face similar strength clans and improve/

the CL system as it is currently is not a league and is in no way shape or form could become a true league. promotion/demotion type is the best league and is long overdue in CC clan world. we finally have enough clans to make a good two teir league.

Chariot of Fire wrote:MP makes a good point. Have to say, part of the pleasure of the current CL4 was the ability to face clans we otherwise would not have done. So an 'equal footing for all' each season is a good & fair principle. I expect a lot of clans also don't want to be facing the same ones year after year which would happen if we pigeonhole clans into divisions.


that might be the trade off we face in order to get a true league but there is the CCup to face those clans we wouldnt normally face.

Chariot of Fire wrote:Say, for instance......

Each division has 20 clans.

There are 195 official maps + 14 beta maps

A clan sets up 11 home games once every 2 weeks

A clan joins 11 away games once every 2 weeks (the week in between the home games)

A map can only be used once

This means

The league runs over 38 weeks (longer if holiday breaks are included)

A clan will play 209 home games, each on a different map, and 209 away games, also each on a different map (so most maps will be played twice, with home & away settings)

Home 'advantage' is therefore just choosing type & settings, e.g trips esc adjacent fog (plus of course picking the right map for the opponents you are about to face)

Random is not an option

This is how a league should be. A decent number of games over a whole season and being tested on every map CC has to offer.

Thus we can determine league champions (CC Clan League) and cup champions (Conqueror's Cup) each calendar year, and these would be the 2 big events for every clan to participate in.


im not in favour of this as there are just too many straight forward maps where luck/drop and who goes first will win it without strategy. afterall the champions should be the best not the luckiest.

limiting selection of maps to lets say 2 - 4 - 5(up for debate) for all game types so minimun 40 different maps,max 100 maps(if 200 home map season) for a season if a 20 clan league system is in place.i think its the best compromise . that way dumb maps wont be a factor and there is a little flexibilty for clans in choosing but it also would force clans to move out of there comfort zone

also something which i dont think has been discussed will this league allow trench games? and if so will it be limited like map selection?
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Crazyirishman on Sun May 20, 2012 12:03 pm

One things that I would like to see allowed is trench, it seems like nobody has any love for it. There are some maps where it changes the strategy completely and I'd like to be able to use it in clan league (not sure how others feel about this, I may be on my own lil' island).
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby IcePack on Sun May 20, 2012 12:06 pm

I would be in favor ultimately of allowing nuke, trench, and unlimited but say they can't be used more then X % of the time. Where X is decided by someone other then me :D

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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby cookie0117 on Sun May 20, 2012 12:56 pm

You would have to limit trench or the leagues would take years to finish!!

Also a league where you know where your playing next year is a much easier to follow and plan for competition. Also a larger game set against each competitor will give a more accurate result.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby uckuki on Sun May 20, 2012 1:04 pm

trench and unlimited are tricky settings. they can be used, though I'd suggest different limitations:
not the number of games they can be used it but the type of maps.

Trench: definitely impractical for large maps. it's impossible to make chain kill with esc spoils. I'm playing few of those
and it feels they'll take a year to finish. Suggested limit would be something like: Trench can only be used in
maps with total number of terrs of 35 or less. that would guarantee games wouldn't stall the progression
of the league.

Unlimited: also impractical for large maps, gives advantage to whoever goes first. I suggest similar limit like
with trench: Unlimited setting can only be used in maps with total number of terrs 45 or less.

something like that. I'm not sure what number of maps would be available. numbers of terrs are approximate,
could be few more or less.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Sniper08 on Sun May 20, 2012 1:10 pm

cookie0117 wrote:You would have to limit trench or the leagues would take years to finish!!


round limits?
IcePack wrote:I would be in favor ultimately of allowing nuke, trench, and unlimited but say they can't be used more then X % of the time. Where X is decided by someone other then me :D

IcePack


lets stick to trench for the minute , i agree that it would have to be limited but to what extent, no one has used it for a clan war yet to my knowledge so we dont have any prescendent to it likely frequence to show up. i would assume atleast 10% of games would be trench so limit it to idk 25% of all games(50 by 20 league system) and 20%(2 of 10) of the home games each week?
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Crazyirishman on Sun May 20, 2012 1:19 pm

If trench is allowed, its not like people are going to go batshit and make every game of there's trench, much like in clan wars, clans don't make every game unlimited, as a smaller % of people prefer those settings. round limits could also be used to make sure those games don't drag on forever.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby stahrgazer on Sun May 20, 2012 1:22 pm

Well, one thing that could solve all the problems is to require that x% (some small percent, or one game) of each round be one of the odd settings, like unlimited, like trench, like nuclear, perhaps on a map of the leaguemaker's choice rather than the teams' choices. (Not dissimilar from some tournaments or past league play that added W2.1 quads as a required tiebreaker)

This way, these unusual settings could be included, which is "fair" considering these are valid settings on Conquer Club which means folks are playing them, which means identifying who's good and who's not, is fair to determine in league play.

And having the leaguemaker determine which map(s) get thrown in for those unusual settings eliminates some of the problems of folks choosing a map that totally skews the play.

Well. The problem then is, aren't there rules in place, that tournaments and etc. cannot use those sorts of settings if they want medals to be awarded?
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Qwert on Sun May 20, 2012 5:35 pm

Ok ,people i implement some things,
First i remove second league, and this will be Qualification tournament ,where will play Bracket system competition all clans who are not ranked in first 28 positions, also in this Qualification tournament will play all new formed clans.
Second- reduce Premier and First LEague to 14 teams each, and this is last reasonable number for any kind of normal League.
Third-League will be played like real league, round robin system- 14 teams- 26 weeks, plus 10 free weeks,where you will not need to create any games if we get some holidays or some other things, so this mean that each week Home team need to create 2 doubles-2 triple and 2 quads game. Total duration of league 36 weeks.
Promotion -relegation, now its reduced to 3 teams promotion-3 teams relegation. Im totaly against play offs, because this give chance to team who are play so bad, that in one match ,manage to again stay in League.
Well this its small move,and i see that more and more things come.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby AgentSmith88 on Sun May 20, 2012 5:52 pm

IcePack wrote:I would be in favor ultimately of allowing nuke, trench, and unlimited but say they can't be used more then X % of the time. Where X is decided by someone other then me :D

IcePack


You won't find much support for this, especially among the elite clans. They got to where they are using the older settings, so adding in new ones don't usually fly. Ultimately, there is no good reason for disallowing any settings other than freestyle and speed (due to time constraints of the players being a factor). Yes, things like trench would drag games out, but how can you say a clan is the best when they refuse to play half the settings available. And I agree with what someone posted earlier; flat rate probably involves more luck than nukes does, but it is still allowed.

And I knew nobody would go for the all random approach. At least I tried. :roll:
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Bruceswar on Sun May 20, 2012 5:56 pm

uckuki wrote:Unlimited: also impractical for large maps, gives advantage to whoever goes first. I suggest similar limit like
with trench: Unlimited setting can only be used in maps with total number of terrs 45 or less.



You cannot be serious can you? If you think that then I must say you do not know how to play unlimited forts correctly.


As far as trench.. No, just no... It would take forever and clog up everything.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby uckuki on Mon May 21, 2012 12:03 am

Bruceswar wrote:You cannot be serious can you? If you think that then I must say you do not know how to play unlimited forts correctly.


this thread is for discussion on how to improve CL, not irrelevant opinions. stick to the topic people.
if you have any questions or opinions unrelated to CL, pm will do.

Bruceswar wrote:As far as trench.. No, just no... It would take forever and clog up everything.


you haven't read my post carefully enough. I clearly state large maps shouldn't be allowed. trench is practical
for small maps. we would just need a ceiling on total number of terrs allowed.

any news regarding opinion poll on nukes?
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby chemefreak on Mon May 21, 2012 12:10 am

When does the ICL start?
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby deantursx on Mon May 21, 2012 1:42 pm

uckuki wrote:trench and unlimited are tricky settings. they can be used, though I'd suggest different limitations:
not the number of games they can be used it but the type of maps.

Trench: definitely impractical for large maps. it's impossible to make chain kill with esc spoils. I'm playing few of those
and it feels they'll take a year to finish. Suggested limit would be something like: Trench can only be used in
maps with total number of terrs of 35 or less. that would guarantee games wouldn't stall the progression
of the league.

Unlimited: also impractical for large maps, gives advantage to whoever goes first. I suggest similar limit like
with trench: Unlimited setting can only be used in maps with total number of terrs 45 or less.

something like that. I'm not sure what number of maps would be available. numbers of terrs are approximate,
could be few more or less.


I agree with all of this.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby MNDuke on Tue May 22, 2012 2:20 am

chemefreak wrote:When does the ICL start?


June 1st?
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Pirlo on Tue May 22, 2012 8:26 pm

Couldn't read a lot in this thread or even the OP.. but I believe the suggestion in the OP is pretty similar to this I made last year:

viewtopic.php?f=443&t=132387&start=180#p3200796
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Fewnix on Thu May 24, 2012 1:21 am

Let's do it.

and thank you Qwert for all you have done, are doing and will do.
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qwert wrote:Ok ,people i implement some things,
First i remove second league, and this will be Qualification tournament ,where will play Bracket system competition all clans who are not ranked in first 28 positions, also in this Qualification tournament will play all new formed clans.
Second- reduce Premier and First LEague to 14 teams each, and this is last reasonable number for any kind of normal League.
Third-League will be played like real league, round robin system- 14 teams- 26 weeks, plus 10 free weeks,where you will not need to create any games if we get some holidays or some other things, so this mean that each week Home team need to create 2 doubles-2 triple and 2 quads game. Total duration of league 36 weeks.
Promotion -relegation, now its reduced to 3 teams promotion-3 teams relegation. Im totaly against play offs, because this give chance to team who are play so bad, that in one match ,manage to again stay in League.
Well this its small move,and i see that more and more things come.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby chemefreak on Thu May 24, 2012 7:12 am

Pirlo wrote:Couldn't read a lot in this thread or even the OP.. but I believe the suggestion in the OP is pretty similar to this I made last year:

viewtopic.php?f=443&t=132387&start=180#p3200796


Actually, it looks a lot like an already tried and failed clan league format. But that is just my opinion.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Qwert on Fri May 25, 2012 12:48 pm

add two more things
====================================
League Games, Settings, Maps, & Players
Weekly

Home Games (for Premier and First League)

2 Doubles - Clan's Choice of Maps & Settings
2 Triples - Clan's Choice of Maps & Settings
2 Quadruples - Clan's Choice of Maps & Settings

Home Games (for Qualification Tournament)

3 Doubles - Clan's Choice of Maps & Settings
3 Triples - Clan's Choice of Maps & Settings
4 Quadruples - Clan's Choice of Maps & Settings
1 Tiebreak Quadruples - random map, esc,chain, fog
=============================================
Schedule
round robin ( 26 play week and 10 free week)

Week 1 [play or free]
Week 2 [play or free]
Week 3 [play or free]
Week 4 [play or free]
Week 5 [play or free]
Week 6 [play or free]
Week 7 [play or free]
Week 8 [play or free]
Week 9 [play or free]
Week 10 [play or free]
Week 11 [play or free]
Week 12 [play or free]
Week 13 [play or free]
Week 14 [play or free]
Week 15 [play or free]
Week 16 [play or free]
Week 17 [play or free]
Week 18 [play or free]
Week 19
Week 20
Week 21
Week 22
Week 23
Week 24
Week 25
Week 26
Week 27
Week 28
Week 29
Week 30
Week 31
Week 32
Week 33
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Crazyirishman on Sun May 27, 2012 6:11 pm

Bruceswar wrote:
uckuki wrote:Unlimited: also impractical for large maps, gives advantage to whoever goes first. I suggest similar limit like
with trench: Unlimited setting can only be used in maps with total number of terrs 45 or less.



You cannot be serious can you? If you think that then I must say you do not know how to play unlimited forts correctly.


As far as trench.. No, just no... It would take forever and clog up everything.


I agree with you bruce on the part about unlimited forts, even if the general consensus is "they are more up to luck" that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed and the away team should be happy that the home team chose to use unlimited because there is more luck which would be a disadvantage to the home team. I personally don't think it is any more or less luck than getting a mixed set in round 3 or a flat rate game or 3 cashing/ getting stuck with a 2 pair in a escalating game. If there was a clan that used adjacent forts all the time and were really good with them, there wouldn't be such an huss fuss about whether they should be allowed or not.

However with trench, I disagree based on my experiences, I think most would end or be close to ending within 15 rounds. Yes conquest maps would take longer but a round limit could be used to stop them from dragging on. Team escalating would probably not run as smoothly but flat rate/ no spoils games have an added dynamic.
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Pirlo on Sun May 27, 2012 6:48 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:- don't do a 'game exchange' system where 2 clans swap home games. Instead just have one clan send its games to the other clan (a 'Home' week)
- later in the season those 2 clans meet again, this time the other clan sends its home games (copying the football format)


Great point!
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Re: CC Clan League -Premier-First-Second

Postby Qwert on Tue May 29, 2012 5:17 am

new add
----------------------
promotion:
premier league/league 1: 3 teams from premier league will drop to league 1, and top 3 teams from league 1 will advance to premier league. if one team decide not to participate in premier league before season start, their place will fill 4th team from league 1. if two or more clans decide not to participate, their places will be filled with equal number of best teams from league 1.

league 1/Qualification Tournament: 3 teams from league 1 will drop to Qualification Tournament, and their places will be filled with finalists and winner of match for 3rd place from Qualification Tournament. if one or more teams from league 1 decide not to participate, empty places in league 1 will be filled with best teams from Qualification Tournament (acording to finished positions)

for example: if 1 clan from premier league and 2 clans from league 1 decide not to participate, premier league will then have all the clans that stayed in premier league plus 4 best teams from league 1. league 1 will then have all the clans stayed in league 1, plus 3 teams who dropped from premier league, plus 3 best teams from Qualification Tournament, plus 4th best clan from Qualification Tournament to fill a place for 4th clan advance to premier league, plus 5th and 6th clan in Qualification Tournament to fill the places from clans that dropped out from league 1.
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Re: CC Clan League - Premier <> First <> Qualification

Postby ahunda on Thu May 31, 2012 11:54 am

Ok. I like the basic idea of this a lot. So I want to add some thoughts & suggestions:

1. Get this whole thing into CLA & get it approved as the set-up for the next CLA League season(s). This thread here clearly shows, that there is a lot of support for the idea. And I think, it is in the best interest of everyone to not have too many competing clan events at the same time. Have the Conquerors Cup & this here as the new CLA League format as the 2 main & regular clan events, where (almost) all competitive clans participate, instead of 2-3 different leagues with different set-ups and a couple of clans participating in each of them.

2. Keep the pure league format, and do not add a play-off. That´s the whole point of a league format after all. The winner is the one, who played best continuously throughout an entire season, not in one or two matches at the very end of it. The play-off idea degrades the regular season to a mere qualifier event. We have the Conquerors Cup as a true knock-out tournament, let´s have a true League too.

3. I very much support the idea of having bigger breaks between the single sets/matches, for several reasons: Work-load for both TOs & clan contacts (giving them longer breaks between the sets/matches), game load for players (not as many over-laps between sets/matches), but also: Looking at the current Division 1, where we are now about to start the last set/match, only a handful of the first rounds sets/matches are finished yet. This does not allow for a true League feeling, where you can see, how your clan is doing from match to match and see it progress up & down in the divisions table. Instead we will probably now see a lot of results coming in day by day, and the table changing drastically from day to day too. It takes a part of the excitement out of it to not know for example, that you need a win in your next match to make it to number 1 spot, or whatever.

4. Looking at division size & scheduling: With 12 clans in a division we would have 11 sets/matches in total, with 16 clans 15 sets/matches. Starting new sets/matches every 2 weeks would make for 22 or 30 weeks (plus a couple of weeks for the last sets/matches to finish), starting every 3 weeks for 33 or 45 weeks. Both could work to play an entire season per year. If we want to add a few weeks break during summer and/or Christmas time, 12 clans 3-weekly or 16 clans 2-weekly seems good.

5. The single sets/matches: Looking at the ongoing CLA League, 12 games per set/match should be absolute minimum (as results can swing easily in such small samples). With longer breaks between the sets/matches, a bit more might be possible (striking a balance in regards to game load for participating clans there). Dividing sets into home & away matches taking place at different dates & being counted separately doesn´t sound practical to me (both in terms of scheduling & size of single sets/matches). Beyond that: Keep it as simple as possible. Map limitations seem appropriate (every map only to be used once or twice in the season), otherwise as little limitations as possible (let people play what they want = have fun). I would stick with the old proven thing of home & away games as it has always been in clan competitions, but if a majority wants it, a certain number on "neutral ground" could be added to each set/match, either on Random or some pre-selected maps, for example: 1/3 home games, 1/3 away games, 1/3 neutral ground.

Well, yeah. Just some ideas added to the mix ...

O:)
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Re: CC Clan League - Premier <> First <> Qualification

Postby Pirlo on Thu May 31, 2012 12:17 pm

ahunda wrote:2. Keep the pure league format, and do not add a play-off. That´s the whole point of a league format after all. The winner is the one, who played best continuously throughout an entire season, not in one or two matches at the very end of it. The play-off idea degrades the regular season to a mere qualifier event. We have the Conquerors Cup as a true knock-out tournament, let´s have a true League too.


I tried to express this point last year.. less luck.. if you lose a set or two or even more, you can still win the overall league. Less stress too!

ahunda wrote:Dividing sets into home & away matches taking place at different dates & being counted separately doesn´t sound practical to me (both in terms of scheduling & size of single sets/matches).


I support the opposite. I think it's more exciting to have them separated. It's a thrill to know you have to pull a win off your home, so you need to be very good at other people's homes and try to win as many sets as possible, while knowing you can't afford too many home defeats if you want to claim the title as the best clan on the site. This will also allow the lower clans to stand a chance to beat a top clan. I think of it as a motivation for them even when they found themselves out of contention after few sets in a long-run tourney!

Just my 2 cents!
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Re: CC Clan League - Premier <> First <> Qualification

Postby Qwert on Thu May 31, 2012 12:32 pm

ahunda wrote:Ok. I like the basic idea of this a lot. So I want to add some thoughts & suggestions:

1. Get this whole thing into CLA & get it approved as the set-up for the next CLA League season(s). This thread here clearly shows, that there is a lot of support for the idea. And I think, it is in the best interest of everyone to not have too many competing clan events at the same time. Have the Conquerors Cup & this here as the new CLA League format as the 2 main & regular clan events, where (almost) all competitive clans participate, instead of 2-3 different leagues with different set-ups and a couple of clans participating in each of them.

2. Keep the pure league format, and do not add a play-off. That´s the whole point of a league format after all. The winner is the one, who played best continuously throughout an entire season, not in one or two matches at the very end of it. The play-off idea degrades the regular season to a mere qualifier event. We have the Conquerors Cup as a true knock-out tournament, let´s have a true League too.

3. I very much support the idea of having bigger breaks between the single sets/matches, for several reasons: Work-load for both TOs & clan contacts (giving them longer breaks between the sets/matches), game load for players (not as many over-laps between sets/matches), but also: Looking at the current Division 1, where we are now about to start the last set/match, only a handful of the first rounds sets/matches are finished yet. This does not allow for a true League feeling, where you can see, how your clan is doing from match to match and see it progress up & down in the divisions table. Instead we will probably now see a lot of results coming in day by day, and the table changing drastically from day to day too. It takes a part of the excitement out of it to not know for example, that you need a win in your next match to make it to number 1 spot, or whatever.

4. Looking at division size & scheduling: With 12 clans in a division we would have 11 sets/matches in total, with 16 clans 15 sets/matches. Starting new sets/matches every 2 weeks would make for 22 or 30 weeks (plus a couple of weeks for the last sets/matches to finish), starting every 3 weeks for 33 or 45 weeks. Both could work to play an entire season per year. If we want to add a few weeks break during summer and/or Christmas time, 12 clans 3-weekly or 16 clans 2-weekly seems good.

5. The single sets/matches: Looking at the ongoing CLA League, 12 games per set/match should be absolute minimum (as results can swing easily in such small samples). With longer breaks between the sets/matches, a bit more might be possible (striking a balance in regards to game load for participating clans there). Dividing sets into home & away matches taking place at different dates & being counted separately doesn´t sound practical to me (both in terms of scheduling & size of single sets/matches). Beyond that: Keep it as simple as possible. Map limitations seem appropriate (every map only to be used once or twice in the season), otherwise as little limitations as possible (let people play what they want = have fun). I would stick with the old proven thing of home & away games as it has always been in clan competitions, but if a majority wants it, a certain number on "neutral ground" could be added to each set/match, either on Random or some pre-selected maps, for example: 1/3 home games, 1/3 away games, 1/3 neutral ground.

Well, yeah. Just some ideas added to the mix ...

O:)


i will try to answer.

1. Well i think that things in CLA work totaly diferent,because you need to have several proposition, where people decide what its best, so i dont know what CLA think of this format

2.Like i say previously,i dont like playoffs, Clan who play all league best then he deserve to be champion of league, and i will not apply this.

3. and 4. After long thinking, first i create that bouth leagues have 16 teams, but then problem with all clans belove 32 place, its to little left to create Division 3, so i change to be 14 clans in Premier and First League each, and all belove 28 will play Qualification tournament .
If you read carefull , League will play round robin (13 home and 13 away matches) win will be awarded with 3 points and tie will be awarded with 1 points. This give you 26 weeks of play, plus addition 10 weeks to be added for vacation, and this give you total of 36 weeks of competition duration. Still not decide what round will be play,and what round will be vacation.
5.Well for now i split Home and away to play separate, maybe will people vote that imediatly play Together ,and maybe will people vote for round robin, so its still open for discusion.
===========================================================================
No beta
Clan's cannot use the same map more than one time in League.Consider that we have 201 approved maps, this means you have to pick up to 78 home maps.(for first two League lvl, only for Qualification Tournament,its depend on how many round will be played)
Random maps can be used as many times as so desired and what ever map it turns out to be will not be counted towards the 1 map rule.

Well for Premier and First LEague are know how much will have participiants(14 each), and Qualification tournament its depend of how much join to play.

Each round no one player should play more than 12% of the games, 2 game maximum per player per round.
No restriction on who plays in what game.
There needs to be a minimum of 10 different players per set.

i think its perfectly clear here,each round consist of -2 double,2 triple and 2 quads games, so 2 game maximum per player are good number.
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