F400 Ranking [Nov 15th Updated!]

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Re: [New] F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby Dako on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:22 am

They should be added if they are moved to completed challenges and have finished. Are they?
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Re: [New] F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby IcePack on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:11 am

josko.ri wrote:I think it is better to not update all before you include Random League II results from December. You have already ranking which is not accurate excluding those 100+ games, so when on inaccurate rankings you chain more results which are directly related to the inaccurate ones because strength of an opponents also has important role in rankings, then the final standings become even more inaccurate.


As previousky mentioned, Random League II is waiting on the organizer (benga) to provide the information. If you participated in a League and want the results included, the basic F400 info needs to be provided and so far that hasn't happened. I know last we spoke benga was working on that, I haven't gotten an update as to we're it is. If you'd like the data included, perhaps helping or following up with organizers will help.

After the CL4, it was clear that organizers needed to step up and provide more info since the CD's treat the wars differently (they don't log final dates, and scores in threads weren't accurate or completed in some cases) that it needed to be addressed.

The simplest way to address it is to require organizers to provide the information. If no info is provided, it won't be included (same goes for CL5). I feel if large events like this don't see any improvement in organization, either the community will cry foul loud enough it improves, the community will step up, or the organizers will do the work to attract clans in the competition. Nobody will sign up for an event of they know the organizer won't provide info for F400 and it won't be included, for example. (this was mentioned several times in CL5 thread w little comment).

Organizers of an event need to be held responsible for accurate and complete data of competition, otherwise why run an event when someone else can who would provide the data?
Bracket events (like CC3) are already included by CD's so there is no change to this.

As far as accuracy, when / if I receive the info it won't make inaccurate ranks. There will be very minor reflection in the +/- catagory. I'm happy to hold off for RL2, but I'm not delaying forever on one event.

IcePack
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Re: [New] F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby IcePack on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:13 am

Dako wrote:They should be added if they are moved to completed challenges and have finished. Are they?


The last several months the wars being moved to completed are regularly 2-8 weeks behind.
I have had to get the completed info from active challenge area for awhile now once all games complete and final score is marked.
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Re: [New] F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby Keefie on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:32 am

I feel that the above comments regarding organisation of the Random League to be rather harsh.

Benga runs a great competition that is regularly updated and all of the results are available at this website. It's far better organised than the last Clan League was.

http://randoml.leaguerepublic.com/ProcessPublicSelect.do;jsessionid=CE6B6CDC73FB7F8B485B9A9D8DCEFC8D.cmsreporting2?psSelectedSeason=909254707&psSelectedDivision=1957542&psSelectedLeague=2988246

Does the exact finish date of all of these 12 game mini wars really have that much impact ???? The start dates for all of them are available at the above site, just add a couple of weeks to them for each war and you wont be far wrong. Seems to me that some folks on here are just being a little to pedantic/demanding.
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Re: [New] F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby betiko on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:34 am

i think that like in tennis there should be seasons and put an end date where the best clan of the year is nominated (the one with the best ranking...). could be the 31st of december, or could be around april with the end of the cc?

oh and yeah i like the opticians as a nickname! :lol:
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Re: [New] F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby IcePack on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:34 am

Keefie,
Most of those "harsh" comments were about CL4 not random league. Benga runs a great league, but I don't have the final info on his event so it hasn't been included.
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Re: [New] F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby Keefie on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:37 am

It's all available on the website. Does the exact finish date really matter that much ???? As I said add 14 days to the start date and you wont be far wrong.
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Re: [New] F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby IcePack on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:40 am

Keefie wrote:It's all available on the website. Does the exact finish date really matter that much ???? As I said add 14 days to the start date and you wont be far wrong.


Yes I know it is. Just like it was for CL4. But after that fiasco it was said that organizers need to provide better info (CL4 had scores wrong or not updated even). Final scores and end dates do matter.

Thanks,
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Re: [New] F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby Keefie on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:28 pm

Of course the bloody scores matter. But if your out by a day or two on the end date of a 12 game mini war - DOES IT REALLY MATTER !!!!!
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Re: [New] F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby benga on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:34 pm

I am making the update as we speak, will have it by the end of day or night :)
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Re: [New] F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby IcePack on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:37 pm

benga wrote:I am making the update as we speak, will have it by the end of day or night :)


Sounds good thanks benga :)
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Re: [New] F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby Keefie on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:47 pm

"You are clearly not understanding what I've said. Its up to the organizers. You arent really contributing to the discussion by repeating the same thing over and over. Unless you have something more constructive to say, i wont be reaponding to you anymore in F400. Thanks and have a great day."

Thanks for the pm Ice :(

I was hoping for an answer to my question.

Gunn never used to put in the CL results and when he did, he stated quite clearly that their impact was minimal. I'm all for these mini war results being included but if having the exact end dates makes the data collection onerous for the organisers, then what would the impact be if the end date was input as 14 days after the start date (which is freely available). If the difference is zero or negligible, is the extra data collection worth the effort ?
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Re: [New] F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby IcePack on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:00 pm

Keefie wrote:"You are clearly not understanding what I've said. Its up to the organizers. You arent really contributing to the discussion by repeating the same thing over and over. Unless you have something more constructive to say, i wont be reaponding to you anymore in F400. Thanks and have a great day."

Thanks for the pm Ice :(

I was hoping for an answer to my question.

Gunn never used to put in the CL results and when he did, he stated quite clearly that their impact was minimal. I'm all for these mini war results being included but if having the exact end dates makes the data collection onerous for the organisers, then what would the impact be if the end date was input as 14 days after the start date (which is freely available). If the difference is zero or negligible, is the extra data collection worth the effort ?


Gunn didn't do it because it was a lot of work to do CL on his own. I agree, but it does matter for accurate results. It's "minimal" but when the top few clans are only a few points apart, minimal can determine first and third. To date you are correct, this wasn't done. But whether it's a small 12 game mini war like RL or giant CL behemoth they should be treated equally. Generally speaking its not "a day or two" difference in games, but sometimes weeks.

So whether it's a 12 mini RL or full CL it will be up to the organizers to provide accurate information.

Hope the answer is clearer this time and thanks for calmly discussing the matter more constructively. It's appreciated.

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Re: [New] F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby Keefie on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:06 pm

Ok thanks mate.
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Re: [New] F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby benga on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:09 pm

RL II

PIG-TFFS 4-8
2012-07-28 19:25:50 - Bigroo4601, beeps, jakevv won the game

MD-TNC 3-9
2012-07-27 16:04:12 - germwarfare, LordDusan, ViperOverLord, Annexator won the game

FOED-HH 9-3
2012-08-04 04:13:52 - snuden, Keefie, Googilibear, leapfrog won the game

OSA-DYN 7-5
2012-08-30 14:47:11 - emporium, Mizzou3181, privatejj, sandman175 won the game

MB-TFFS 1-11
2012-08-10 05:26:11 - beeps, Bigroo4601, hambone won the game

PIG-HH 6-6
2012-08-03 09:44:47 - joeaggie98, istanbul39, Mr_Adams won the game

DYN-MD 5-7
2012-08-04 12:48:01 - brakh, blindman30, sarphinius, LordDusan won the gam

FOED-OSA 6-6
2012-08-26 00:04:31 - TX AG 90, privatejj, Mizzou3181, dakky21 won the game

MB-TNC 6-6
2012-08-26 00:59:33 - AlamoJake, alf300, B.L.Sebub, biomansalisbury won the game

TFFS-HH 10-2
2012-08-22 03:57:28 - patrickaa317, shoop76, SpiteMalice won the game

PIG-OSA 6-6
2012-08-20 01:59:23 - Mizzou3181, killboy108, dakky21, rh-headhunter won the game

FOED-MD 5-7
2012-09-10 18:15:57 - KiIIface, Pantheon, ViperOverLord, VikingRage won the game

MB-HH 1-11
2012-09-07 16:04:37 - Googilibear, snuden, Johnny Dickshot, Awesome A won the game

DYN-TNC 7-5
2012-09-04 00:40:54 - ckyrias, MoB Deadly, mcshanester29 won the game

TFFS-OSA 3-9
2012-09-16 16:09:52 - V.J., sandman175, jug68, emporium won the game

MD-PIG 7-5
2012-08-30 14:32:13 - IR1SH ACE, Conchobar, rabid_rabbit, tkr4lf won the game

MB-DYN 1-11
2012-09-22 11:45:57 - Spino, CAPK81, dunewarr, TheProwler won the game

HH-OSA 4-8
2012-09-13 22:37:11 - Keefie, Mr_Adams, leapfrog, vragus won the game

TNC-FOED 5-7
2012-10-01 07:20:02 - ddgrimes, clanger35, Namliam, Kabanellas won the game

OSA-MB 12-0
2012-10-05 14:59:57 - Field-Marshal Ot, geko, hutchkov, Dario77 won the game

FOED-DYN 5-7
2012-10-27 03:20:06 - WPBRJ, hotfire, pearljamrox2 won the game

MD-HH 5-7
2012-09-26 01:29:47 - snuden, Awesome A, Googilibear, Johnny Dickshot won the game

PIG-TNC 7-5
2012-10-08 10:39:29 - EminenceGrise, dana1971, Claudard, BlackKnight_6 won the game

MB-FOED 3-9
2012-10-14 10:43:08 - Imyahuckleberry, Kabanellas, Namliam won the game

TNC-TFFS 10-2
2012-10-18 04:57:57 - EminenceGrise, dana1971, tenbar, uyumaykimaw won the game

DYN-PIG 2-10
2012-10-31 20:06:20 - IR1SH ACE, Conchobar, rabid_rabbit won the game

OSA-MD 6-6
2012-10-18 02:20:50 - LordDusan, deantursx, blindman30, Gigi1 won the game

TFFS-MD 5-7
2012-09-29 18:04:24 - aspalm, beeps, dgkb99, jakevv won the game

MB-MD 10-2
2012-10-20 00:36:19 - KiIIface, Pantheon, ViperOverLord, fiction won the game

PIG-FOED 9-3
2012-11-01 03:42:37 - IR1SH ACE, Conchobar, rabid_rabbit, tkr4lf won the game

DYN-TFFS 5-7
2012-11-02 21:37:06 - beeps, dgkb99, jakevv won the game

TNC-HH 8-4
2012-11-04 04:06:01 - dana1971, Epitaph1, pricejam2 won the game

DYN-HH 5-7
2012-11-08 03:01:01 - dunewarr, Drew483, hotfire, KraphtOne won the game

PIG-MB 11-1
2012-11-03 01:47:06 - joe snuffy eliminated donnynewnan from the game

OSA-TNC 6-6
2012-11-15 03:13:44 - Dario77, dakky21, V.J., Zoki77 won the game

FOED-TFFS 8-4
2012-11-17 07:23:08 - aaronvollrath eliminated Imyahuckleberry from the game
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby Chariot of Fire on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:28 pm

"If a job's worth doing it's worth doing well"

Both Josko and Ice are right in respect of wanting to record the results in proper chronological order, so yeah....a couple of weeks out can make a difference. As Ice says it can come down to a single point here or there. It may not seem like much, but when this ladder is the basis on which seedings are done for Clan League and Conqueror's Cup it can have a huge impact as it could put a clan either in a different division (league) or other half of the draw (cup).

The best solution is if the responsibility is placed on the warring clans to post their results here (we can't expect TO's to do it, nor for them to be prompt when moving a challenge to 'Completed'). So if every clan head is given implicit instructions to post clan vs clan results in this thread they will only have themselves to blame if they're not moving up the ladder (obviously I'd expect the winning clan to be the one to post).

This is Ice's baby though, so I'll butt out and leave him to administer it as he sees fit. If he'd like help though in promoting the idea of all clans posting results here then I can help with some suggestions.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby IcePack on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:37 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:"If a job's worth doing it's worth doing well"

Both Josko and Ice are right in respect of wanting to record the results in proper chronological order, so yeah....a couple of weeks out can make a difference. As Ice says it can come down to a single point here or there. It may not seem like much, but when this ladder is the basis on which seedings are done for Clan League and Conqueror's Cup it can have a huge impact as it could put a clan either in a different division (league) or other half of the draw (cup).

The best solution is if the responsibility is placed on the warring clans to post their results here (we can't expect TO's to do it, nor for them to be prompt when moving a challenge to 'Completed'). So if every clan head is given implicit instructions to post clan vs clan results in this thread they will only have themselves to blame if they're not moving up the ladder (obviously I'd expect the winning clan to be the one to post).

This is Ice's baby though, so I'll butt out and leave him to administer it as he sees fit. If he'd like help though in promoting the idea of all clans posting results here then I can help with some suggestions.


Thanks for the feedback CoF. Essentially, as the organizers are the ones who are running the event I'm leaving it up to them to decide how to gather and give me the data. If they want to take it upon themselves, that's fine. If they want to require clans to do it, and create some sort of system that holds them responsible to do so, thats fine as well. I'll accept the data from anyone as long as its complete, and accurate.

By holding the organizers responisble, one of three things will occur. Either 1) the organizers will produce a way to get the data and continue, or 2) organizers will quit and those who are willing to do the work will tkae their place, or 3) the event will continue, but results not included in the official ranking system and they will have to let people know at sign up that it wont be included (which may or may not affect the number of clans signing up for the event).

Either way, its hard for me to hold a dozen (or more) individual clan leaders responsible, so i will keep it at the organizer level who can delegate the duty as they see fit.

IcePack
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby Chariot of Fire on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:42 pm

OK mate, fair comment. There are certainly fewer organizers to be held accountable than there are clans, but I just wonder if they mind that onus of responsibility? Clans (esp clan heads) tend to remain stable, whereas organizers change and new ones may not be aware of the requirement to post data promptly (or at all).
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby IcePack on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:26 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:OK mate, fair comment. There are certainly fewer organizers to be held accountable than there are clans, but I just wonder if they mind that onus of responsibility? Clans (esp clan heads) tend to remain stable, whereas organizers change and new ones may not be aware of the requirement to post data promptly (or at all).


Which is where clans involved will need to ensure the organizer of event(s) are aware, and either have them do it or organize something for the event. If the organizer clearly shows no interest in doing so, its something for clans to think about when signing up for it.

Essentially, its a large task and someone (specific person) needs to be responsible, not 1-3 dozen clan leaders participating in an event that already have a lot of prep work etc on their plate for clan leagues. Organizers dont have THAT much to run an event, the least they can do is organize a group of people to track the data if they dont want to themselves.

If its kept up with from the very beginning, it really wont be that much work for the organizer. Its only coming in at the end trying to gather ALL the data all at once that becomes burdensome. I dont think its unreasonable to expect an organizer to make sure they provide minimal information (i'm not asking for a ton of info, but the CD's dont treat them like normal wars so its not provided by CD's like other wars are)

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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby IcePack on Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:30 pm

Ok working on this now. Things to be included this issue:

RL2 Results
CL4 Div 4 Final (FOED TNC)
CL4 Div 1 Final (KORT AOC)
AOC EMP
TOFU PACK
FALL GG
LEG DBC
TFFS FOED

And a few minor corrections and date syncing with CD dates. IGNI going social. Its late, so the changing of war from oldest to newest to newest to oldest will occur when im more awake :)

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Last edited by IcePack on Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby IcePack on Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:33 pm

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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:25 am

Great job Ice, thank you.

The significance of this TOFU/KORT challenge in the Conqueror's Cup cannot be overstated. Winner takes all!
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby jetsetwilly on Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:44 am

So the cup is 1st vs 2nd and 3rd vs 4th :)
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby John Deere on Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:47 am

LOL we went down by 2.... dont see that being realistic but we will prove this whole chart wrong this year ;)
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:10 am

John Deere wrote:LOL we went down by 2.... dont see that being realistic but we will prove this whole chart wrong this year ;)


I guess your loss, in conjunction with the wins by 4th & 5th, makes the difference. Still damn close between the three of you.

Funny how it does happen to be the Top 4 ranked clans in the semis though. Don't think anyone would have predicted that.
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