F400 Ranking [Nov 15th Updated!]

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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby grifftron on Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:30 am

AFOS & AOC are both top clans, and have been in the clan world for years now. They deserve those spots. I still believe in this system, its the best we got.

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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby IcePack on Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:59 am

Thanks for catching josko I'll correct the graph tonight
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:20 am

but that was KORT #3 v THOTA #1 so was not really top 2 clans at the time


It would have been TOFU #2 vs THOTA #1 had our victory over you stood and a 21 game forfeit not been imposed.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby Masli on Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:03 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:
but that was KORT #3 v THOTA #1 so was not really top 2 clans at the time


It would have been TOFU #2 vs THOTA #1 had our victory over you stood and a 21 game forfeit not been imposed.


=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby Arama86n on Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:54 pm

John Deere wrote:LOL we went down by 2.... don't see that being realistic but we will prove this whole chart wrong this year ;)


Well, a ranking system can really only be a subjective and limited view, trying to be as objective as possible. Any given week you have players leaving and joining clans all over CC, not to mention players IRL situations changing, going on vacation, getting a new job, a new girlfriend or even a baby...
To make an extreme example, at some point during the last month perhaps the Pack was the strongest clan on CC, or RL circumstances for your players took another turn and you couldn't even have beaten any top ten clan that week, we'll never know.

The point ofc, is that this system is fantastic, but don't stare yourself blind at it. It gives us a very accurate general view of the clan world, but it can't tell you if you or Empire or Aoc are 3rd or 4th or whatever. That certainly changes from month to month, perhaps even week to week, where as the system only updates with incoming war results. The world is ever-changing.

I beleive I read somewhere that the pack had a fair few of it's core less active lately (might be confusing with another clan, but nvm this is all just an example). When a Pack member ponders over how good his clan is he naturally thinks in terms of when everyone is present and active. This though is that shadow world of potential, how good the clan could be on that perfect day. How often does that coincide with reality for any of us though? When you beat that opponent that only relates to the time-frame in question, you were stronger than them at that time, that either of you were at your peak is unlikely, or even impossible depending on how you wish to define it.

And this is where the brilliance of such a ranking system comes into play. It deals with cold hard facts, over the coarse of two years how often have a clans members been active, contributing and "at their best", how many percent of the clan have been living up to their potential over this time period and translating that into actual triumph on the field of battle. It's probably the closest we'll get to any "truth", and a damn sight better than what our ego's believe about our clans.

We can never really know who is the 3rd or 4th best clan at the time of this post, and can only speculate as to our potential if all our members could be at their peak at once. But the system can attempt to show us some essence of objectivity over a period of time.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby niMic on Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:17 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:
but that was KORT #3 v THOTA #1 so was not really top 2 clans at the time


It would have been TOFU #2 vs THOTA #1 had our victory over you stood and a 21 game forfeit not been imposed.


It wasn't, though. And then we went on to win the Cup.

Funny how things work out sometimes O:)
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby Leehar on Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:55 pm

I'm not precisely certain on the term, but the ranking is pretty much self-validating.

IE, it's not so much that because they are top 4 clans in the F400 that they are in CC3 semi-finals, but because they are in the Semi's that they're the top 4 clan in the F400.
So essentially a very good objective assessment that uses the results to prove that the clans should be ranked where you assume them to be by virtue of them making it so far in CC's premier clan competition.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby IcePack on Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:58 pm

Leehar wrote:I'm not precisely certain on the term, but the ranking is pretty much self-validating.

IE, it's not so much that because they are top 4 clans in the F400 that they are in CC3 semi-finals, but because they are in the Semi's that they're the top 4 clan in the F400.
So essentially a very good objective assessment that uses the results to prove that the clans should be ranked where you assume them to be by virtue of them making it so far in CC's premier clan competition.


Not necessarily true, had OSA made it into final 4 - their current rank of 14 (?) would improve but not very likely to top 4 position. It just do happened that the upper ranked clans were the ones who made it thru and some made minor improvements to their ranking which also matched the final 4 in the event.
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby Leehar on Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:13 pm

IcePack wrote:
Leehar wrote:I'm not precisely certain on the term, but the ranking is pretty much self-validating.

IE, it's not so much that because they are top 4 clans in the F400 that they are in CC3 semi-finals, but because they are in the Semi's that they're the top 4 clan in the F400.
So essentially a very good objective assessment that uses the results to prove that the clans should be ranked where you assume them to be by virtue of them making it so far in CC's premier clan competition.


Not necessarily true, had OSA made it into final 4 - their current rank of 14 (?) would improve but not very likely to top 4 position. It just do happened that the upper ranked clans were the ones who made it thru and some made minor improvements to their ranking which also matched the final 4 in the event.

It's worth taking a gander at. Probably the main issue against it would be the sheer weight of clan wars they have, but I'd hazard that I win over the #1 ranked clan could be worth as much as 1600 points to them, which if it doesn't take them to the top 4, should propel them mightily close!
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby IcePack on Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:02 pm

Leehar wrote:
IcePack wrote:
Leehar wrote:I'm not precisely certain on the term, but the ranking is pretty much self-validating.

IE, it's not so much that because they are top 4 clans in the F400 that they are in CC3 semi-finals, but because they are in the Semi's that they're the top 4 clan in the F400.
So essentially a very good objective assessment that uses the results to prove that the clans should be ranked where you assume them to be by virtue of them making it so far in CC's premier clan competition.


Not necessarily true, had OSA made it into final 4 - their current rank of 14 (?) would improve but not very likely to top 4 position. It just do happened that the upper ranked clans were the ones who made it thru and some made minor improvements to their ranking which also matched the final 4 in the event.

It's worth taking a gander at. Probably the main issue against it would be the sheer weight of clan wars they have, but I'd hazard that I win over the #1 ranked clan could be worth as much as 1600 points to them, which if it doesn't take them to the top 4, should propel them mightily close!


No need for guess work. But you are talking a rather large point difference (approx 300 points!) which is incredibly large, and wont ever be made up in one war.

If war never took place
KORT 1412 (1st)
OSA 1082 (14th)

KORT Win 32-29
KORT 1397 (1st)
OSA 1088 (14th)

Theoretical if OSA won 31-30
KORT 1343 (2nd)
OSA 1115 (12th almost 11th)
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12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby josko.ri on Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:14 pm

IcePack wrote:
Leehar wrote:
IcePack wrote:
Leehar wrote:I'm not precisely certain on the term, but the ranking is pretty much self-validating.

IE, it's not so much that because they are top 4 clans in the F400 that they are in CC3 semi-finals, but because they are in the Semi's that they're the top 4 clan in the F400.
So essentially a very good objective assessment that uses the results to prove that the clans should be ranked where you assume them to be by virtue of them making it so far in CC's premier clan competition.


Not necessarily true, had OSA made it into final 4 - their current rank of 14 (?) would improve but not very likely to top 4 position. It just do happened that the upper ranked clans were the ones who made it thru and some made minor improvements to their ranking which also matched the final 4 in the event.

It's worth taking a gander at. Probably the main issue against it would be the sheer weight of clan wars they have, but I'd hazard that I win over the #1 ranked clan could be worth as much as 1600 points to them, which if it doesn't take them to the top 4, should propel them mightily close!


No need for guess work. But you are talking a rather large point difference (approx 300 points!) which is incredibly large, and wont ever be made up in one war.

If war never took place
KORT 1412 (1st)
OSA 1082 (14th)

KORT Win 32-29
KORT 1397 (1st)
OSA 1088 (14th)

Theoretical if OSA won 31-30
KORT 1343 (2nd)
OSA 1115 (12th almost 11th)

This is logical because OSA has a ton of games played in 2 year timeframe. so 1 or 2 game for them won or lost, even vs #1 ranked, does not make so huge difference. If 60 games are with good results and their ranking is based on 1000+ games, then those 60 does not make huge difference. KORT was playing much less total so for us any more win or loss will much more affect our ranking.

May you post how would ranking be if it ended 31/30 for KORT? My guess is it would be less than 1385 for KORT which means we are still #1 for more than 1 consecutive year because of just the one extra win vs OSA.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby IcePack on Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:40 pm

josko.ri wrote:May you post how would ranking be if it ended 31/30 for KORT? My guess is it would be less than 1385 for KORT which means we are still #1 for more than 1 consecutive year because of just the one extra win vs OSA.


Generally speaking (depending on which two clans face each other) a extra game can earn 5-10 points. In this particular series, I believe its closer 2-3 points.
So would have still been #1, by approx 9-10 points. There is a large difference in this series going from 31-30 to 30-31, but each individual going up (in kort favor) is minor.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:47 pm

niMic wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:
but that was KORT #3 v THOTA #1 so was not really top 2 clans at the time


It would have been TOFU #2 vs THOTA #1 had our victory over you stood and a 21 game forfeit not been imposed.


It wasn't, though. And then we went on to win the Cup.

Funny how things work out sometimes O:)


I know mate (we all know!). My point was only to reiterate how good the ranking system has been and that it would indeed have been Nos. 1 & 2 had it not been for some aberration in the rules.

Well, that and the fact Josko's head was getting in the way ;)
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:50 pm

Arama86n wrote:
John Deere wrote:LOL we went down by 2.... don't see that being realistic but we will prove this whole chart wrong this year ;)


Well, a ranking system can really only be a subjective and limited view, trying to be as objective as possible. Any given week you have players leaving and joining clans all over CC, not to mention players IRL situations changing, going on vacation, getting a new job, a new girlfriend or even a baby...
To make an extreme example, at some point during the last month perhaps the Pack was the strongest clan on CC, or RL circumstances for your players took another turn and you couldn't even have beaten any top ten clan that week, we'll never know.

The point ofc, is that this system is fantastic, but don't stare yourself blind at it. It gives us a very accurate general view of the clan world, but it can't tell you if you or Empire or Aoc are 3rd or 4th or whatever. That certainly changes from month to month, perhaps even week to week, where as the system only updates with incoming war results. The world is ever-changing.

I beleive I read somewhere that the pack had a fair few of it's core less active lately (might be confusing with another clan, but nvm this is all just an example). When a Pack member ponders over how good his clan is he naturally thinks in terms of when everyone is present and active. This though is that shadow world of potential, how good the clan could be on that perfect day. How often does that coincide with reality for any of us though? When you beat that opponent that only relates to the time-frame in question, you were stronger than them at that time, that either of you were at your peak is unlikely, or even impossible depending on how you wish to define it.

And this is where the brilliance of such a ranking system comes into play. It deals with cold hard facts, over the coarse of two years how often have a clans members been active, contributing and "at their best", how many percent of the clan have been living up to their potential over this time period and translating that into actual triumph on the field of battle. It's probably the closest we'll get to any "truth", and a damn sight better than what our ego's believe about our clans.

We can never really know who is the 3rd or 4th best clan at the time of this post, and can only speculate as to our potential if all our members could be at their peak at once. But the system can attempt to show us some essence of objectivity over a period of time.


I can only suggest that anyone wishing to learn logic (and English, it would seem) go and spend some time in Stockholm!
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby josko.ri on Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:52 pm

If granny is male, she would be manny. Thank you for reminding me about it, I would forgot it without your reminder ;)
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:41 pm

By that statement if granny is female she'd be fanny. Which if your name is freakns or Wayne Rooney would be about right.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby josko.ri on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:13 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:By that statement if granny is female she'd be fanny. Which if your name is freakns or Wayne Rooney would be about right.

Not everyone realize point of my statement. If you realize it on this way, let it be so. Interpretation is art which is beauty of the world.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby The_Samurai on Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:49 am

josko.ri wrote:RET is on graph on 15th place but not in table, even not among non ranked clans.


Thanks for picking that up, josko.

IcePack: have you had a look at the position of Retribution regarding the F400 table and graph. As josko mentioned, Retribution does not appear in the table at all, but does appear in the graph. Not sure also if the graph only takes into account our first 2 wars (vs TNC and FISO) or also our win against HH ?

Cheers
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby Keefie on Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:09 am

The_Samurai wrote:
josko.ri wrote:RET is on graph on 15th place but not in table, even not among non ranked clans.


Thanks for picking that up, josko.

IcePack: have you had a look at the position of Retribution regarding the F400 table and graph. As josko mentioned, Retribution does not appear in the table at all, but does appear in the graph. Not sure also if the graph only takes into account our first 2 wars (vs TNC and FISO) or also our win against HH ?

Cheers


You're probably not showing on the table yet because you haven't reached the minimum weighting of 150 games. 1 war to go and you'll be there.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby The_Samurai on Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:07 am

Keefie wrote:
The_Samurai wrote:
josko.ri wrote:RET is on graph on 15th place but not in table, even not among non ranked clans.


Thanks for picking that up, josko.

IcePack: have you had a look at the position of Retribution regarding the F400 table and graph. As josko mentioned, Retribution does not appear in the table at all, but does appear in the graph. Not sure also if the graph only takes into account our first 2 wars (vs TNC and FISO) or also our win against HH ?

Cheers


You're probably not showing on the table yet because you haven't reached the minimum weighting of 150 games. 1 war to go and you'll be there.


Thanks for that, keefie. I was not aware of the minimum weighting. When is the info posted? We are now at 41 + 41 + 61 games = 143 games, so it makes sense.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby IcePack on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:57 am

The_Samurai wrote:
josko.ri wrote:RET is on graph on 15th place but not in table, even not among non ranked clans.


Thanks for picking that up, josko.

IcePack: have you had a look at the position of Retribution regarding the F400 table and graph. As josko mentioned, Retribution does not appear in the table at all, but does appear in the graph. Not sure also if the graph only takes into account our first 2 wars (vs TNC and FISO) or also our win against HH ?

Cheers


Sorry haven't gotten around to looking into and correcting yet, I should be able to get around to it tonight or at latest tomorrow night. Thanks for your patience :)
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
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12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby IcePack on Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:50 pm

Updated the two bottom graphs.

The_Samurai, you have 3 war entries in the log for a weight of 132. Your next war should push you over the edge into fully rated clan.

Hope that helps!
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby The_Samurai on Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:44 am

IcePack wrote:Updated the two bottom graphs.

The_Samurai, you have 3 war entries in the log for a weight of 132. Your next war should push you over the edge into fully rated clan.

Hope that helps!
IcePack


Thanks for the clarification, IcePack ! Appreciate it.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby benga on Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:47 am

FISO vs OSA 13-48 1/18
Otpisani vs One Step Ahead [26-31] - 1/17
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby IcePack on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:56 am

Note to self:

NBK disbanded
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