The Official Clan Sitting Rules (Old Version)

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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Leehar on Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:52 pm

Foxglove wrote:
jetsetwilly wrote:
Swifte wrote:In light of the recent josko/moonchild case, 'vast majority' is still too vague. Please spell out the following: If a player can NEVER take turns on the weekends, are they hereby banished from clan games? This needs to be specifically addressed... and I am sure it affects more than just moonchild.


Knowing in advance that you can not takes turns at the weekends is absolutely not an acceptable situation for a clan war and any player knowingly being entered into games in this situation would be putting their clan in breach of the rules.


What if a person is away for one weekend per month?

I'd think it'd be better for the CD's not to be bogged down in answering all these 'What if' questions?
The Rules and Guidelines here allow them a framework on how to deal with cases, and when cases of infractions come to light, they can deliberate on the matter and evaluate the situations on their merits, since it's very hard to secondguess what would happen right now if this or that was the case.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby jetsetwilly on Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:53 pm

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jetsetwilly wrote:
Swifte wrote:In light of the recent josko/moonchild case, 'vast majority' is still too vague. Please spell out the following: If a player can NEVER take turns on the weekends, are they hereby banished from clan games? This needs to be specifically addressed... and I am sure it affects more than just moonchild.


Knowing in advance that you can not takes turns at the weekends is absolutely not an acceptable situation for a clan war and any player knowingly being entered into games in this situation would be putting their clan in breach of the rules.


one can easily break this...intentionally/unconciously, this can easily be broken down...how ?
say one knows he will not be there in the weekend but why s/he should say he won't be around in weekends, but simply when it is time, leaves a note in game chat indicating his/her absense weekend, and xxx player is going to be sitting for me...Then next week, another note, damn again this weekend i have got to leave the town to there, whereever, this xxx player is gonna sit my account...So, in theory there is no rule abusing, but in practice it is what we have got in the socalled josko's case what ppl call it with that name...

so, what i wonder to know is, how ever you mods will be able to differ these two nuances ?
IMO still unclear and open area to be well defined.


Take me for the example, assume that i very well know that i am gonna be out weekend, but join in the game and when it is weekend i can very well picture it to be a new to me that i didnt know weekend i had something urgent to go, to do, that then i ll need someone to sit in my acc.

How are you going to be able to differ the good occasion from abuse in this case ?


You will have to trust the CD's to make a judgement call in this situation. Taking 1 spontaneous weekend away is hardly unusual but if a player is doing this regularly then we would decide on whether we believed this was a breach of the rules.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby cooldeals on Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:53 pm

So if I understand this right. A clan mate has an emergency (e.g. I have to take my kid to the doctor or I got called into work I won't be able to look at the site for 6 hours). Under rule 3 someone can take turns that fall in that 6 hour window at one time and doesn't have to wait within the 1 hour time limit from rule 2?

Also, I think clans should be allowed to dictate their own sitting rules for a war. Some clans that aren't in the top 5-10 may not care about as many restrictions (and probably aren't abusing sitting either).
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby jetsetwilly on Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:54 pm

Leehar wrote:
Foxglove wrote:
jetsetwilly wrote:
Swifte wrote:In light of the recent josko/moonchild case, 'vast majority' is still too vague. Please spell out the following: If a player can NEVER take turns on the weekends, are they hereby banished from clan games? This needs to be specifically addressed... and I am sure it affects more than just moonchild.


Knowing in advance that you can not takes turns at the weekends is absolutely not an acceptable situation for a clan war and any player knowingly being entered into games in this situation would be putting their clan in breach of the rules.


What if a person is away for one weekend per month?

I'd think it'd be better for the CD's not to be bogged down in answering all these 'What if' questions?
The Rules and Guidelines here allow them a framework on how to deal with cases, and when cases of infractions come to light, they can deliberate on the matter and evaluate the situations on their merits, since it's very hard to secondguess what would happen right now if this or that was the case.


We are happy to take a few questions but you are quite right. All these what if type scenarios would be analysed on case by case basis.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby HardAttack on Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:54 pm

Vid_FISO wrote:
HardAttack wrote:why dont you give a team a fkin freedom of sitting only 3 turns right but only 3 turns not anymore...dont bother urself investigating whole case, life time, simply give it in a team game to happen THREE maximum sitting occasions but 4th sitting if occurs to be accounted to be SIMPLE and abuse...

no matter that team, if needs a more than 3 sitting occasions, simply fck it, let that team miss turn, who cares if they dont care employing proper players not to miss turns ?

just bother urself my mod if the sitting occasions in a game is more than 3 times or not but dont bother urself when account sat, how did that account sat, who sat, etc fck load of tiny stuff.


I'll give you a for instance - one of my friends recently lost his younger brother which required him to travel literally half way across the World to mourn and for the funeral, punishment enough I think.


yes it is sir,
then question arises, for how many times did you encounter with such real urgencies ?
i had been a clan leader for 9 months, and in various clans for 3 years to now...
i had seen ppl's unavailabilities they stated before assigining players to games, so we mostly cared their situations and made player game assignments accordingly...

in your case, which is very very rare, lets define a way, that is that very rare occasion should be brought to a director and lets take director's approval for that rare exceptions...

how many clan games do we play in total in a year ?
say 700-800 in total for example...
and say only 4-5 cases there are and in that 4-5 cases let a mod come in game chat to state there is an exception in this game so more than 3 sitting occasions is wellcomed, or such phrase from a mod in game chat to solve the problem...but very important it is that this s gonna happen under supervision of a mod. And this is not gonna be a load for them since 4-5 times in a year.
Last edited by HardAttack on Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Foxglove on Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:55 pm

Leehar wrote:
Swifte wrote:In light of the recent josko/moonchild case, 'vast majority' is still too vague.

I know Foxglove also was an advocate for a fixed number, and indeed it was there in the initial drafts, but I think thats shaky ground, because it's often open to abuse by those who like to find loopholes. If there was a number like 80% of turns taken, then I'd hazard someone like our esteemed former conqueror would come in and say he couldn't take 82% of the turns, so it's okay in the letter of the law, if not the spirit.


I do understand the potential for abuse with hard numbers. I am still in favor of them though, because I loathe, hate, and despise subjectivity in things like this, and I think that a person's popularity (or lack thereof) can have too much of an influence on the outcome of rule-breaking/abuse reports.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Foxglove on Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:56 pm

Leehar wrote:
Foxglove wrote:
jetsetwilly wrote:
Swifte wrote:In light of the recent josko/moonchild case, 'vast majority' is still too vague. Please spell out the following: If a player can NEVER take turns on the weekends, are they hereby banished from clan games? This needs to be specifically addressed... and I am sure it affects more than just moonchild.


Knowing in advance that you can not takes turns at the weekends is absolutely not an acceptable situation for a clan war and any player knowingly being entered into games in this situation would be putting their clan in breach of the rules.


What if a person is away for one weekend per month?

I'd think it'd be better for the CD's not to be bogged down in answering all these 'What if' questions?
The Rules and Guidelines here allow them a framework on how to deal with cases, and when cases of infractions come to light, they can deliberate on the matter and evaluate the situations on their merits, since it's very hard to secondguess what would happen right now if this or that was the case.


But guidelines without specifics will just cause more drama than we already have. :(

Also, by these rules, I probably will need to quit CC from approximately March - September, because during those months I travel for about one weekend a month. Awesome.

Edit: Ok - that was perhaps overly dramatic. But really, all of the text in the first post can be summarized thusly: "All normal site account sitting rules apply, with the additional restriction that emergency turns are only allowed within 1 hour. We will subjectively judge, using common-sense, all other account-sitting issues and apply subjective punishment."

Is that correct?
Last edited by Foxglove on Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby freakns on Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:05 pm

Foxglove wrote:
Leehar wrote:
Foxglove wrote:
jetsetwilly wrote:
Swifte wrote:In light of the recent josko/moonchild case, 'vast majority' is still too vague. Please spell out the following: If a player can NEVER take turns on the weekends, are they hereby banished from clan games? This needs to be specifically addressed... and I am sure it affects more than just moonchild.


Knowing in advance that you can not takes turns at the weekends is absolutely not an acceptable situation for a clan war and any player knowingly being entered into games in this situation would be putting their clan in breach of the rules.


What if a person is away for one weekend per month?

I'd think it'd be better for the CD's not to be bogged down in answering all these 'What if' questions?
The Rules and Guidelines here allow them a framework on how to deal with cases, and when cases of infractions come to light, they can deliberate on the matter and evaluate the situations on their merits, since it's very hard to secondguess what would happen right now if this or that was the case.


But guidelines without specifics will just cause more drama than we already have. :(

Also, by these rules, I probably will need to quit CC from approximately March - September, because during those months I travel for about one weekend a month. Awesome.


i will have to quit it permanently because im usually away 1 weekend per month(i can access CC over the phone, but i chose not to)... also, not having you around for 6 months would also be a reason for leaving :P
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Leehar on Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:10 pm

Foxglove wrote:But guidelines without specifics will just cause more drama than we already have. :(

Also, by these rules, I probably will need to quit CC from approximately March - September, because during those months I travel for about one weekend a month. Awesome.

I doubt that'd be the Case. Indeed, under Rule 4, you'd still be taking the majority of your turns, so that'd be a-ok. Don't think there's another rule which would renege your sitting either.


Again, we just need to take a step back and give the rules some time to settle. The CD's did put a lot of thought and time into this, and maybe even hurried it along because of the recent incidents, but it should address the majority of issues
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby GoranZ on Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:11 pm

Nicky15 wrote:2, Emergency cover may only be given if the person really is in danger of missing a turn. Therefore a turn can only be covered if there is an hour or less left on the clock. But steps must be taken to contact the player before hand.
1 hour or less will mean that we need to give user passwords to bunch of clan members(instead to 1-2) just to be safe. RL emergencies usually last over 1 hour so limiting the time of supervision to 1 hour will directly force the clans to use multiple players to supervise 1 clan member... But the idea behind these rules is to simplify the process of clan games supervision not to complicate it. Can this be increased to 3 or 4 hours?

Nicky15 wrote:5, You must not be in another persons account for any reason, other than to cover turns while that person is on vacation. Adding to chat in a game you are not in for example will not be allowed. You must also not give permission for anyone to wander in and out of your account at their will. Take care of your account. What happens with it is your responsibility.

Simple question... Is it allowed to write in the chat what I have done and why while I was sitting for someone?

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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby jetsetwilly on Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:18 pm

GoranZ wrote:
Nicky15 wrote:2, Emergency cover may only be given if the person really is in danger of missing a turn. Therefore a turn can only be covered if there is an hour or less left on the clock. But steps must be taken to contact the player before hand.
1 hour or less will mean that we need to give user passwords to bunch of clan members(instead to 1-2) just to be safe. RL emergencies usually last over 1 hour so limiting the time of supervision to 1 hour will directly force the clans to use multiple players to supervise 1 clan member... But the idea behind these rules is to simplify the process of clan games supervision not to complicate it. Can this be increased to 3 or 4 hours?

Nicky15 wrote:5, You must not be in another persons account for any reason, other than to cover turns while that person is on vacation. Adding to chat in a game you are not in for example will not be allowed. You must also not give permission for anyone to wander in and out of your account at their will. Take care of your account. What happens with it is your responsibility.

Simple question... Is it allowed to write in the chat what I have done and why while I was sitting for someone?

Goran


On point 1, the initial plan is 1 hour. That might be reviewed in future if it is not practical

On point 2, absolutely yes the sitter can say what they did and why.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby freakns on Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:21 pm

jetsetwilly wrote:
HardAttack wrote:
jetsetwilly wrote:
Swifte wrote:In light of the recent josko/moonchild case, 'vast majority' is still too vague. Please spell out the following: If a player can NEVER take turns on the weekends, are they hereby banished from clan games? This needs to be specifically addressed... and I am sure it affects more than just moonchild.


Knowing in advance that you can not takes turns at the weekends is absolutely not an acceptable situation for a clan war and any player knowingly being entered into games in this situation would be putting their clan in breach of the rules.


one can easily break this...intentionally/unconciously, this can easily be broken down...how ?
say one knows he will not be there in the weekend but why s/he should say he won't be around in weekends, but simply when it is time, leaves a note in game chat indicating his/her absense weekend, and xxx player is going to be sitting for me...Then next week, another note, damn again this weekend i have got to leave the town to there, whereever, this xxx player is gonna sit my account...So, in theory there is no rule abusing, but in practice it is what we have got in the socalled josko's case what ppl call it with that name...

so, what i wonder to know is, how ever you mods will be able to differ these two nuances ?
IMO still unclear and open area to be well defined.


Take me for the example, assume that i very well know that i am gonna be out weekend, but join in the game and when it is weekend i can very well picture it to be a new to me that i didnt know weekend i had something urgent to go, to do, that then i ll need someone to sit in my acc.

How are you going to be able to differ the good occasion from abuse in this case ?


You will have to trust the CD's to make a judgement call in this situation. Taking 1 spontaneous weekend away is hardly unusual but if a player is doing this regularly then we would decide on whether we believed this was a breach of the rules.


in this case you would put CDs into some kind of supreme referee role, which is bad, because no matter how good referee is, he is always wrong in the eye of beholder.

i think you are looking way too much into this. if i want, i can take turns for majority of my clan, take turns and lead games im not in, and beat most if not all the clans on this site(and yes, i am that good). but what would be upside of doing this?! my e-penis would be bigger? if someone is doing this, then let him/her, who the f*ck cares?
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby IcePack on Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:23 pm

I think most people want to see team vs team, not who has the single best star. That's why events try to feature depth or players not in 100% of games to begin with.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby freakns on Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:27 pm

IcePack wrote:I think most people want to see team vs team, not who has the single best star. That's why events try to feature depth or players not in 100% of games to begin with.

absolutely. and that is why i enjoy watching my clanmates games and if ppl are like this(and i believe they are), then they too would not like to take 100% of turns?!
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby niMic on Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:35 pm

So Moonchild, who has been deemed not to be breaking any rules on CC, is from now on barred from playing in any clan war as long as his situation remains?
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby HardAttack on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:13 pm

jetsetwilly wrote:
GoranZ wrote:
Nicky15 wrote:2, Emergency cover may only be given if the person really is in danger of missing a turn. Therefore a turn can only be covered if there is an hour or less left on the clock. But steps must be taken to contact the player before hand.
1 hour or less will mean that we need to give user passwords to bunch of clan members(instead to 1-2) just to be safe. RL emergencies usually last over 1 hour so limiting the time of supervision to 1 hour will directly force the clans to use multiple players to supervise 1 clan member... But the idea behind these rules is to simplify the process of clan games supervision not to complicate it. Can this be increased to 3 or 4 hours?

Nicky15 wrote:5, You must not be in another persons account for any reason, other than to cover turns while that person is on vacation. Adding to chat in a game you are not in for example will not be allowed. You must also not give permission for anyone to wander in and out of your account at their will. Take care of your account. What happens with it is your responsibility.

Simple question... Is it allowed to write in the chat what I have done and why while I was sitting for someone?

Goran


On point 1, the initial plan is 1 hour. That might be reviewed in future if it is not practical

On point 2, absolutely yes the sitter can say what they did and why.



Please review it, cos it really will come with problems sir. =D>
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Bones2484 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:21 pm

Nice job.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Rodion on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:39 pm

While I do appreciate the effort that was put into this and the idea behind having more rules to define sitting practices in clan games, I do not like the final product.

Nicky15 wrote:1, We have no clear and defined rule of what is and is not allowed within the clan arena. Therefore judging cases of reported abuse is very difficult. And it is hard to come up with consistent rulings.


The new rule does not change anything. Abuse is still unclear and undefined.

Nicky15 wrote:Finally The Cds will not be throwing the book at people for minor things. We don't want reports like "Joe blogs covered a turn an 1h 30 mins before it was due to expire" minor things may get noted.


Heavily disagree. You made a rule, so enforce it. Every single time. Even if the turn started with 01:00:01 to go.

You've gone through the trouble of creating a rule in order to make things more defined and clear, just to throw it all away by saying some instances will be punished while others will not.

Nicky15 wrote:These games must not include the unlimited setting, or any other setting where an advantage could potentially be had.


Again with the subjectivity. For instance, an advantage can potentially be had by having a 3,000-point brigadier sitting for a 2,999-point colonel in a Doodle Earth quads game. The unlimited part of the rule reeks of Anti-Josko, whereas the rest of it will allow for anyone to argue that a potential advantage was accrued.

While I'm here, I agree with someone that said "agreements between clans" should be unrestricted. Lower seeded clans might not have the slightest interest in sitting abuse rules, so why bind two clans that "just wanna have fun" to a rule they dislike?
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby TheMissionary on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:48 pm

I disagree with 1 hour. Sometimes i get into a project and will not make it home in time to play, so I text a clan member and ask them to cover up until a certain time. If that time gets close to passing I'll do the same process again.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby IcePack on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:01 pm

TheMissionary wrote:I disagree with 1 hour. Sometimes i get into a project and will not make it home in time to play, so I text a clan member and ask them to cover up until a certain time. If that time gets close to passing I'll do the same process again.


I think that something like this should have been considered as well, instead of that person having to stay on for 8 hours waiting for each individual game getting down to an hour, being able to cover the expected delay or problem time frame until you expect to be able to get back on.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby betiko on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:04 pm

I don't really agree with all this. I don't see why a game should be determined on top of dice, drop, starting position ect also by missed turns. I don't see why we should make all that fuss because for whatever reason a teammate can't play his turns. It's like if in any sport you wouldn't allow a replacement when a player is injured. Some of you guys want to treat this as injury = red card. Who isn't being good sports here, the ones who don't mind winning thanks to missed turns by the opponents, or the ones who take teammate turns when these are about to miss.. (I'm not talking about the rules by itself but some reactions I've read)
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby GoranZ on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:13 pm

Nicky15 wrote:3, Sitting for the purpose of covering an extended break from the site can carry on as normal, turns can be taken whenever it is convenient, the sitter can add to chat, but the player on vacation must not take turns themselves during this time or add to game chat. Account sitting is for holidays, vacations and emergencies only.

Can extended break be defined in hours?
The main problem for me is this: Clan mate goes on a trip(36 to 48 hours). In RL this is not holiday or vacation but if it is only emergency I need to log in hourly on his account in order to take his turns in clan games which doesn't have much sense.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Bruceswar on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:13 pm

When I get home from work I will respond to many people here. Please be patient.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby eggrollonedolla on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:14 pm

niMic wrote:So Moonchild, who has been deemed not to be breaking any rules on CC, is from now on barred from playing in any clan war as long as his situation remains?


I think this sums it up nicely. Life isn't fair for 100% of people 100% of the time. Sure it sucks for him but its the hand he got dealt.

as far as the one hr goes I think 2 hrs would be better
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby IcePack on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:23 pm

Nicky15 wrote:These rules will come into force Monday after we have had the chance to pm all clan leaders and make sure everyone is aware.


I think Monday is a bit optomistic, with no PM's being sent out yet and just getting posted on a Thursday. Questions are still being asked, clarifications desired, less active forum users might not even "get the memo" by Monday.

Not that it affects me personally much, but still a large group (50 clans...20 ish clan members in each, 1000 players need to get the memo give or take) should have a little "leeway" time.

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