CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:26 pm

josko.ri wrote:
IcePack wrote:Nobody is stopping you from running your own event if you feel so strongly about more options, random draws, or whatever else you care about.

What I'm opposed to is changing the cup - which was never intended to be more than a simple bracket tournament, and making it something completely different.

Then what the majority wants doesn't matter anymore. No votes needed. No hurt feelings. If your set up is far superior, then more clans will sign up for it. If this really has no support, it will die out naturally with little participation.

You can hold as many votes as you like, until every last detail is determined. Nobody is stopping you.

IcePack

CCup is there to serve wish of clans in overall as it is one of 2 major events, not to serve Dako's, my nor your wish. That said, clan world should determine in democratic way what THEY wish to have for the major event. Democracy in deciding is only what I am asking for. That is unfortunately not present in this format.


It never has been I have no idea why you think that it would start now to change the setup of the major event.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:33 pm

IcePack wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
IcePack wrote:Nobody is stopping you from running your own event if you feel so strongly about more options, random draws, or whatever else you care about.

What I'm opposed to is changing the cup - which was never intended to be more than a simple bracket tournament, and making it something completely different.

Then what the majority wants doesn't matter anymore. No votes needed. No hurt feelings. If your set up is far superior, then more clans will sign up for it. If this really has no support, it will die out naturally with little participation.

You can hold as many votes as you like, until every last detail is determined. Nobody is stopping you.

IcePack

CCup is there to serve wish of clans in overall as it is one of 2 major events, not to serve Dako's, my nor your wish. That said, clan world should determine in democratic way what THEY wish to have for the major event. Democracy in deciding is only what I am asking for. That is unfortunately not present in this format.


It never has been I have no idea why you think that it would start now to change the setup of the major event.

You are wrong, the event was changed (improved) every year. Why now should be different?
On one way you say it should not be changed, and it other way some parts of changing you are supporting.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:37 pm

It was changed via the settings or rules which I'm fine with improving each year. like timing out, cup tied, settings (nuke, trench) etc.

Not the basic set up / function of the whole event. Big difference.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby eddie2 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:39 pm

ahunda wrote:
Doc_Brown wrote:Just out of curiosity, is there any other tournament (clan or otherwise) where the organizer has presented all format and rule questions for a vote? I haven't followed all the various tournaments for very long, so this is an honest question. In my limited experience, tournament organizers always determine what the settings will be (possibly with some input and proposed modifications).

The set-up of the Clan League, the other big clan event, has always been the result of debate & votes by clan representatives.



this is wrong because from what i remember things were still being talked about and voting on when qwert opened up the sign up thread before everything was finalized.
and like i said earlier dako agreed to run this event clan directors did not decide to run it but have came in here replying to questions aimed at the organizer of this event which caused confusion in this event as to who the organizer was...

same as the way they were stating that you must be a member of cdf to take part so they could vote on issues needed. when in affect the player from each clan who is holding the privs for this event probably wont be a member of cdf to make the vote. or read all posts regarding the vote. like with clan league half the clans reps for it are not cdf members so why have votes regarding it in there where they cannot read it..

even look at qwerts thread for the league....

1.Clan League Sign Up Proposition
Clan Eligibility
To sign up for CL5, each clan must meet the following criteria.
1-Must be eligible to be members of CD&F (Adhere to the 1 competitive clan rule)
2-Must have completed (enough wins for a decisive winner) 2 competitive clan wars of at least 40 games
3- Must have existed for 3 months
4- Must have at least 14 members


they did not demand cdf membership there.... but have here and although i like most of the clan mods i feel they have overstepped the mark against dako in thi8s thread.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:41 pm

IcePack wrote:It was changed via the settings or rules which I'm fine with improving each year. like timing out, cup tied, settings (nuke, trench) etc.

Not the basic set up / function of the whole event. Big difference.

Your opinion. Someone other think that the same how it can be improved settings/timing out, that it can be improved format as well. All what I am asking is give them CHANCE to construct their argument and vote their opinion. If they will put some terrible format idea that everyone dislikes, their fault, no? Zero votes for the proposal in that case, no?
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:48 pm

josko.ri wrote:
IcePack wrote:It was changed via the settings or rules which I'm fine with improving each year. like timing out, cup tied, settings (nuke, trench) etc.

Not the basic set up / function of the whole event. Big difference.

Your opinion. Someone other think that the same how it can be improved settings/timing out, that it can be improved format as well. All what I am asking is give them CHANCE to construct their argument and vote their opinion. If they will put some terrible format idea that everyone dislikes, their fault, no? Zero votes for the proposal in that case, no?


I don't have a problem with a vote. But I don't think Dako should be required to hold one nor do I think the event should be altered in its format. I think the door is wide open if you feel so much support for a different event style, that you can create a new event.
Thereby making a vote completely unnecessary.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby Keefie on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:21 pm

IcePack wrote:I don't have a problem with a vote. But I don't think Dako should be required to hold one nor do I think the event should be altered in its format. I think the door is wide open if you feel so much support for a different event style, that you can create a new event.
Thereby making a vote completely unnecessary.


Shall we have a vote on whether we need to vote ?

Personally, I would much rather see a random draw. I agree with Vid-Fiso that the 1 to 32 seeded fixed bracket just becomes a turkey shoot with very few surprises. We gave it our best shot in CC3 and then were criticsised for having the temerity to play some quads and trips on small maps to try and increase our chances. Well I'll state here that if we enter CC4 then there's every chance we'll do that again.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:27 pm

Keefie wrote:
IcePack wrote:I don't have a problem with a vote. But I don't think Dako should be required to hold one nor do I think the event should be altered in its format. I think the door is wide open if you feel so much support for a different event style, that you can create a new event.
Thereby making a vote completely unnecessary.


Shall we have a vote on whether we need to vote ?

Personally, I would much rather see a random draw. I agree with Vid-Fiso that the 1 to 32 seeded fixed bracket just becomes a turkey shoot with very few surprises. We gave it our best shot in CC3 and then were criticsised for having the temerity to play some quads and trips on small maps to try and increase our chances. Well I'll state here that if we enter CC4 then there's every chance we'll do that again.


I know you drew some flake for that but IMO that was smart play on your part to best your chances of moving forward. It draws a bit on luck instead of skill but just like in sports if you know you can't win by using method X you got to get creative.

Using a random draw would not really advance your position much. If you got a weaker opponent you'd advance until you met someone down the line where you'd employ much the same tactic no? It doesn't stop you from using it or (eventually) facing top level play so why bother? I just don't understand what random draw actually brings to the table.

Eventually your going to face strong opposition. You'll either be ready or your not.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:32 pm

IcePack wrote:Eventually your going to face strong opposition. You'll either be ready or your not.

True, but is it better to go out of competition with 1 win and 1 lost, or just 1 lost?
Some clans play to get the trophy, while some (lower) clans are very happy with just one win. Current system does not give them any real chance to get the wanted win. My proposed system allows them much better chance to catch a win.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:35 pm

josko.ri wrote:
IcePack wrote:Eventually your going to face strong opposition. You'll either be ready or your not.

True, but is it better to go out of competition with 1 win and 1 lost, or just 1 lost?
Some clans play to get the trophy, while some (lower) clans are very happy with just one win. Current system does not give them any real chance to get the wanted win. My proposed system allows them much better chance to catch a win.


I would argue that the current system encourages those "lower clans" to improve and desire to compete at a higher level. Then they can legitimately compete and increase competition across all clan lines instead of randomly gaining an additional medal and keeping competition as a whole lower.

Speaking on a personal level CC3 was the main reason I move forward with helping create the Fallen. We lost in Round 1, to a better clan. I wanted to win and pass that round of 32 so we sought ways to improve so next time, we could be ready to compete at this higher level.

If we had won round 1, I probably would have stuck around thinking we were better than we really were and would have not encouraged / started the desire to see real improvement.
Last edited by IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:38 pm

IcePack wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
IcePack wrote:Eventually your going to face strong opposition. You'll either be ready or your not.

True, but is it better to go out of competition with 1 win and 1 lost, or just 1 lost?
Some clans play to get the trophy, while some (lower) clans are very happy with just one win. Current system does not give them any real chance to get the wanted win. My proposed system allows them much better chance to catch a win.


I would argue that the current system encourages those "lower clans" to improve and desire to compete at a higher level. Then they can legitimately compete and increase competition across all clan lines instead of randomly gaining an additional medal and keeping competition as a whole lower.

With my system they can easier achieve 1 win, and the being kicked by top clans, or how you call it "being encouraged to improve and desire to compete at higher level". They will for sure be much more encouraged and desired to complete at higher level if they first beat some equal level clan, and then got beaten by top clan in round 2, instead of just being beaten by top clan in round 1.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:39 pm

Edited my post above with a personal example.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:12 pm

Here is some comparing between my proposed idea and current idea. Let's compare "weight" of draw for some clans in those 2 ideas. The comparison is made in ideal case, supposing no upsets will happen.
Legend: 6 numbers-meaning= which clans they face in R64/R32/16/8/4/2
D=Dako's, J= Josko's

Clan #1: D(-/32/16/8/4/2) J(-/-/16/8/4/2)
Clan #9: D(-/25/8/1/4/2) J(-/25/8/1/4/2) NO DIFFERENCE
Clan #16: D(-/17/1/8/4/2) J(-/17/1/8/4/2) NO DIFFERENCE
Clan #17: D(-/16/1/8/4/2) J(32/16/1/8/4/2)
Clan #25: D(-/24/8/1/4/2) J(24/9/8/1/4/2)
Clan #32: D(-/1/16/8/4/2) J(17/9/8/1/4/2)

So let's compare. For clans 9-16 no difference in formats. For clans 1-8 there is just minor difference that they do not play round 1 vs clans 25-32, which are often not interesting matches nor for winners nor for losers as it happens big margin wins. Positive thing for top clan, in addition they would rather take a break after CC3 than play some non interesting match and win with big margin.

So, as conclusion, majority of differences are coming for clans of 17 and lower. Let's see:

Clan 17 has in round 1 clan 32, other is the same for them like in Dako's system, so practically everything the same. If they are not capable to win vs clan 16 places lower ranked, then they does not deserve shot at clan #16, which was given to them by default in Dako's system.

Clan 25 instead of giving them shot at #1 too early, after one equal match and one upset, they have much more equal playing field throughout the tournament by facing 24,9,8. If they are capable to win vs those 3, they will be very motivated and for sure capable to put great fight vs #1.

How we are going lower to the draw, advantage of my system for lower clans in comparing with Dako's system are becoming much more visible. look at clan #32, is for them better to be hard kicked by clan #1 in round 1, or give them clans 17/9/8 before they face clan number 1? if they somehow beat 3 in a row, they will be much stronger opposition to clan #1 because of great morale and motivation, than they would be in Dako's round 1, when lower clans are mainly new clans not good organized yet. After 3 wins in a row, they would be very well organized so then match #1vs#32 would be much better than in Dako's round 1.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:18 pm

The main event of clans should not be the place for improving or learning IMO. This is a measurement / tournament of clans ability while the learning area is internal for clans, thru regular wars thru time etc.

This is a tournament isn't it, to find the best / winner not help every clan get medals and get as far as they can.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:21 pm

IcePack wrote:I would argue that the current system encourages those "lower clans" to improve and desire to compete at a higher level.

IcePack wrote:The main event of clans should not be the place for improving or learning IMO.


Well, if you do not speak in one post one thing, and in another post something totally opposite, I would take you more seriously.

When someone starts playing tennis, does he play his first match vs Roger Federer, or he starts at Challengers, advances to ATP, and after some wins in a row eventually get a chance to play vs Federer?

In which case he will achieve better performance vs Federer? In his the first professional match, or after he won several matches in a row, and then, full of confidence, come to play vs Federer?
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:34 pm

josko.ri wrote:
IcePack wrote:I would argue that the current system encourages those "lower clans" to improve and desire to compete at a higher level.

IcePack wrote:The main event of clans should not be the place for improving or learning IMO.


Well, if you do not speak in one post one thing, and in another post something totally opposite, I would take you more seriously.

When someone starts playing tennis, does he play his first match vs Roger Federer, or he starts at Challengers, advances to ATP, and after some wins in a row eventually get a chance to play vs Federer?

In which case he will achieve better performance vs Federer? In his the first professional match, or after he won several matches in a row, and then, full of confidence, come to play vs Federer?


Except the two quotes are talking two different things / out of context. But good try.

Increased / difficult competition encourages improvement by creating the desire to better themselves in the off season, NOT thru the actual event. It is not the place for them to improve directly.

That was plainly stated, and you choose to take them out of context. I know you're a smart guy and already knew that, which makes me respect you leads and take you less seriously as well.

I wont debate with someone who chooses to discuss things in this manner, as it makes as much sense to discuss the set up with a brick wall.

Good luck.
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby eddie2 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:37 pm

lol wouldnt it be good though if all top ramked clans ended up in the same side of the bracket like kort tofu facing each other in round 1 :lol: :lol:
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:47 pm

IcePack wrote:I wont debate with someone who chooses to discuss things in this manner, as it makes as much sense to discuss the set up with a brick wall.


Thanks, I also found painfully debating with you who try to kick any brick wall tryout from anyone who comes here. You already did your wall and you try everything that any additional brick gets disbanded.

See my post above (blue/red comparison) that is one great brick. Giving exact comparing between something I dislike and idea how I suggest to improve that. That is much more useful way of "bricking walls" than just repeating "leave it, leave it, leave it, it is good just because it is good, and it worked well so it must be great".
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:53 pm

You clearly have selective hearing. But ok :)

Back on subject - Dako, friendly1 had asked about the schedule.
Is there any changes or updates you see schedule wise? Would be helpful for planning purposes.

Thanks
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby rdsrds2120 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:12 am

Good day, everyone. I understand that there have been recent problems discussing the format of the CCup4. From the time that I came on board as Community Manager a couple months ago, I've always thought that things could be more officiated to grant greater prizes and guarantee general flow. Due to some recent transgressions, the CD's and I have come together and formed this statement:

Clan Directors wrote:Hi, the last few days have raised some intriguing issues along with some considerable confusion & lead to numerous discussions among the CD's on how best to move forward.
After Consultation with the Admins, we have collectively resolved that the Conquerors Cup will now become an Official Conquer Club Event and be fully overseen by the CD's.

While we certainly hoped that a symbiotic relationship could occur with us being able to temper any exigencies, recent events have brought it to our attention that these issues of Joint Control can no longer be effectively dealt & that we need to take ownership in the full sense off the word to ensure that our role can be performed effectively & that Clans can have their say through the due processes we've attempted to implement in CDF (which has seemingly been ostracized as a viable means of democratic voting by some).

By the same token, we will continue to encourage and foster discussion in the public forum on how to best table Agenda's & votes to the CDF to obtain satisfactory outcomes that accurately reflect Clans views on Material concerns.

Please refer to this thread as we move forward with the new Cup draft & how we propose to deal with it to ensure that decisions are truly made on what the majority of Clans desire rather than only a few Vocal members who are better able to articulate their wants, but perhaps aren't always in tune with what others may want.


I believe that the CD's are well in tune with what everyone will think is best and should be responsible for the organization and implementation of the largest event in the Clan World. Good luck in all of your wars, everyone!

--rdsrds2120 (BMO)
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby eddie2 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:27 am

i can only ask then that since this and the clan league are the same size event are they also going to take control of that. at the end of it dako took control of this event if clans didnt like what he was doing they did not have to join a little bit like why aka did not join the clan league we didnt like certain rules so didnt join....

what i have also seen over the last 2 threads for this and clan league was that qwert was given a lot more respect than dako by the clan mods and a lot more free rope by the clan mods...

So in effect this looks like they are saying who has been a long running mod for the site been heavily involved in convos for all events and has a rough idea of what a majority of clans want has not got any respect from clan mods and i really feel sorry for this.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby Dako on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:30 am

Lovely. At least I could have been notified somehow. Ah, well, go figure.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby Qwert on Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:48 am

eddie2 wrote:i can only ask then that since this and the clan league are the same size event are they also going to take control of that. at the end of it dako took control of this event if clans didnt like what he was doing they did not have to join a little bit like why aka did not join the clan league we didnt like certain rules so didnt join....

what i have also seen over the last 2 threads for this and clan league was that qwert was given a lot more respect than dako by the clan mods and a lot more free rope by the clan mods...

So in effect this looks like they are saying who has been a long running mod for the site been heavily involved in convos for all events and has a rough idea of what a majority of clans want has not got any respect from clan mods and i really feel sorry for this.


You are very wrong, before League,i even dont know good CD, and some of CD are on mine foe list. In proces of building CL i work togedher with comunity and almost every thing i build in Cd&F with many voting processes. Even you give sugestion for rules to be implemented, and its add in CL rules. Respect are build by work, its not given like gift.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby eddie2 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:08 pm

qwert wrote:
eddie2 wrote:i can only ask then that since this and the clan league are the same size event are they also going to take control of that. at the end of it dako took control of this event if clans didnt like what he was doing they did not have to join a little bit like why aka did not join the clan league we didnt like certain rules so didnt join....

what i have also seen over the last 2 threads for this and clan league was that qwert was given a lot more respect than dako by the clan mods and a lot more free rope by the clan mods...

So in effect this looks like they are saying who has been a long running mod for the site been heavily involved in convos for all events and has a rough idea of what a majority of clans want has not got any respect from clan mods and i really feel sorry for this.


You are very wrong, before League,i even dont know good CD, and some of CD are on mine foe list. In proces of building CL i work togedher with comunity and almost every thing i build in Cd&F with many voting processes. Even you give sugestion for rules to be implemented, and its add in CL rules. Respect are build by work, its not given like gift.


qwert i think you are totally misunderstanding my post..

in your public thread if someone asked you a question were you allowed to respond to it or did clan mods respond for you (you got to respond to it.)
did clan mods demand all participants be members of cdf (no)
you are saying about votes in cdf but did clan mods get votes for the demands they made of dako (no they did not)

did they even have the common curtesy to send him a pm to say they were going to take over running this event (no)

like what has been stated dako was using cdf for votes by what has been posted in here there are 2 votes going on or happened, and there would of probably of been more until the clan mods came into this thread posting on his behalf with response to questions that had not been voted on.

even myself i made a post questioning the demand for cdf membership to get hit with it was a grudge when it was not it was because they were demanding something that was not demanded in the clan league...

dako has not been given the same respect you were given and he is a long time serving head of tech department moderator.

I held a lot of respect for the clan mods until this happened and now feel they have went on a power serge against a respected member of the community. it was uncalled for and unneeded. but think what you want and i will think what i do (with evidence in this thread to back it up)
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