CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:12 pm

Doc_Brown wrote:Just out of curiosity, is there any other tournament (clan or otherwise) where the organizer has presented all format and rule questions for a vote? I haven't followed all the various tournaments for very long, so this is an honest question. In my limited experience, tournament organizers always determine what the settings will be (possibly with some input and proposed modifications).


In the case where you (honestly) asked question, tournament organizer come with his idea, starts tournament and make it how he wishes.

In this case, tournament existed and he alone assigned himself to run existing tournament, going over the ones who should have power to do so, CDs.

If you wanted comparison here is real honest comparison... What happens in Tournament section when TO abandons tourney (which is case here)? TOs put announcement if someone wish to rescue the tournament, and then interested player(s) say their wish, and they give to one of them to rescue the tournament. This analogy is what I am actually proposing. CDs put announcement to everyone to make their proposal how the CC4 should look, if more than one proposal comes, CDs put it on voting in their forum and give power of running the event to the one with the most votes. Isn't it the same principle which is already occurring in tournament section, which you (honestly) want to compare with this?
Last edited by josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby ahunda on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:13 pm

Doc_Brown wrote:Just out of curiosity, is there any other tournament (clan or otherwise) where the organizer has presented all format and rule questions for a vote? I haven't followed all the various tournaments for very long, so this is an honest question. In my limited experience, tournament organizers always determine what the settings will be (possibly with some input and proposed modifications).

The set-up of the Clan League, the other big clan event, has always been the result of debate & votes by clan representatives.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:23 pm

@ josko - that's true for tournaments. However when someone takes over a tournament they don't alter the tournament format. They run it according to the originally defined rules.

@ ahubda - that's true. And out of the two major events (CC and CL) which has the larger history of problems, arguments, and which has overall run smoothly in comparison?
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby Doc_Brown on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:44 pm

josko.ri wrote:Obviously, tyranny is more welcome here than democracy. =D>


Now that we've established that point, can we return to giving our Dear Leader feedback on V5 format? ;)
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby ahunda on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:48 pm

IcePack wrote:@ ahubda - that's true. And out of the two major events (CC and CL) which has the larger history of problems, arguments, and which has overall run smoothly in comparison?

You mean like the rule of 21 games being forfeit in the TOFU - KORT challenge some years back ?
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:49 pm

ahunda wrote:
IcePack wrote:@ ahubda - that's true. And out of the two major events (CC and CL) which has the larger history of problems, arguments, and which has overall run smoothly in comparison?

You mean like the rule of 21 games being forfeit in the TOFU - KORT challenge some years back ?


Tell me how changing the seeding / draw would have improved that situation?
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:02 pm

IcePack wrote:
ahunda wrote:
IcePack wrote:@ ahubda - that's true. And out of the two major events (CC and CL) which has the larger history of problems, arguments, and which has overall run smoothly in comparison?

You mean like the rule of 21 games being forfeit in the TOFU - KORT challenge some years back ?


Tell me how changing the seeding / draw would have improved that situation?

of course it was run smoothly because it had the most simple format. Kid who just learned mathematics can arrange format of 1v32 2v31 etc, it is very simple, and therefore runable smoothly by itself.

The fact that something is simple does not mean that it is the best/the most enjoyable. I already explained it to you by example, if simpler=better then we would all still play 6 players, classic, flat rate, adjacent. The fact is that simple can be run by itself and that people will have fun in it. But, with some changes it can be even better. Why not try it? or why at least not ASK people if we will try it, but rather choose tyrannic way of saying "It will be like this regardless of your wishes."
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:07 pm

Nobody is stopping you from running your own event if you feel so strongly about more options, random draws, or whatever else you care about.

What I'm opposed to is changing the cup - which was never intended to be more than a simple bracket tournament, and making it something completely different.

Then what the majority wants doesn't matter anymore. No votes needed. No hurt feelings. If your set up is far superior, then more clans will sign up for it. If this really has no support, it will die out naturally with little participation.

You can hold as many votes as you like, until every last detail is determined. Nobody is stopping you.

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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby ahunda on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:14 pm

IcePack wrote:
ahunda wrote:
IcePack wrote:@ ahubda - that's true. And out of the two major events (CC and CL) which has the larger history of problems, arguments, and which has overall run smoothly in comparison?

You mean like the rule of 21 games being forfeit in the TOFU - KORT challenge some years back ?


Tell me how changing the seeding / draw would have improved that situation?

Eh ? What has that got to do with anything I said ? I am not arguing about the seeding/draw here. I don´t have any strong preference in that regard, and I haven´t mentioned the issue with a single word in my last posts.

You were implying, that the Cup has always run smoothly, and so I pointed out to you, that there have been problems & issues in the Cups history as well.

I fail to see the connection here anyway: What has the seeding/draw procedure, that is done before the actual start of the tournament, to do with the question, if the Cup itself then runs smoothly ?
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:17 pm

IcePack wrote:Nobody is stopping you from running your own event if you feel so strongly about more options, random draws, or whatever else you care about.

What I'm opposed to is changing the cup - which was never intended to be more than a simple bracket tournament, and making it something completely different.

Then what the majority wants doesn't matter anymore. No votes needed. No hurt feelings. If your set up is far superior, then more clans will sign up for it. If this really has no support, it will die out naturally with little participation.

You can hold as many votes as you like, until every last detail is determined. Nobody is stopping you.

IcePack

CCup is there to serve wish of clans in overall as it is one of 2 major events, not to serve Dako's, my nor your wish. That said, clan world should determine in democratic way what THEY wish to have for the major event. Democracy in deciding is only what I am asking for. That is unfortunately not present in this format.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:26 pm

josko.ri wrote:
IcePack wrote:Nobody is stopping you from running your own event if you feel so strongly about more options, random draws, or whatever else you care about.

What I'm opposed to is changing the cup - which was never intended to be more than a simple bracket tournament, and making it something completely different.

Then what the majority wants doesn't matter anymore. No votes needed. No hurt feelings. If your set up is far superior, then more clans will sign up for it. If this really has no support, it will die out naturally with little participation.

You can hold as many votes as you like, until every last detail is determined. Nobody is stopping you.

IcePack

CCup is there to serve wish of clans in overall as it is one of 2 major events, not to serve Dako's, my nor your wish. That said, clan world should determine in democratic way what THEY wish to have for the major event. Democracy in deciding is only what I am asking for. That is unfortunately not present in this format.


It never has been I have no idea why you think that it would start now to change the setup of the major event.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:33 pm

IcePack wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
IcePack wrote:Nobody is stopping you from running your own event if you feel so strongly about more options, random draws, or whatever else you care about.

What I'm opposed to is changing the cup - which was never intended to be more than a simple bracket tournament, and making it something completely different.

Then what the majority wants doesn't matter anymore. No votes needed. No hurt feelings. If your set up is far superior, then more clans will sign up for it. If this really has no support, it will die out naturally with little participation.

You can hold as many votes as you like, until every last detail is determined. Nobody is stopping you.

IcePack

CCup is there to serve wish of clans in overall as it is one of 2 major events, not to serve Dako's, my nor your wish. That said, clan world should determine in democratic way what THEY wish to have for the major event. Democracy in deciding is only what I am asking for. That is unfortunately not present in this format.


It never has been I have no idea why you think that it would start now to change the setup of the major event.

You are wrong, the event was changed (improved) every year. Why now should be different?
On one way you say it should not be changed, and it other way some parts of changing you are supporting.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:37 pm

It was changed via the settings or rules which I'm fine with improving each year. like timing out, cup tied, settings (nuke, trench) etc.

Not the basic set up / function of the whole event. Big difference.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby eddie2 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:39 pm

ahunda wrote:
Doc_Brown wrote:Just out of curiosity, is there any other tournament (clan or otherwise) where the organizer has presented all format and rule questions for a vote? I haven't followed all the various tournaments for very long, so this is an honest question. In my limited experience, tournament organizers always determine what the settings will be (possibly with some input and proposed modifications).

The set-up of the Clan League, the other big clan event, has always been the result of debate & votes by clan representatives.



this is wrong because from what i remember things were still being talked about and voting on when qwert opened up the sign up thread before everything was finalized.
and like i said earlier dako agreed to run this event clan directors did not decide to run it but have came in here replying to questions aimed at the organizer of this event which caused confusion in this event as to who the organizer was...

same as the way they were stating that you must be a member of cdf to take part so they could vote on issues needed. when in affect the player from each clan who is holding the privs for this event probably wont be a member of cdf to make the vote. or read all posts regarding the vote. like with clan league half the clans reps for it are not cdf members so why have votes regarding it in there where they cannot read it..

even look at qwerts thread for the league....

1.Clan League Sign Up Proposition
Clan Eligibility
To sign up for CL5, each clan must meet the following criteria.
1-Must be eligible to be members of CD&F (Adhere to the 1 competitive clan rule)
2-Must have completed (enough wins for a decisive winner) 2 competitive clan wars of at least 40 games
3- Must have existed for 3 months
4- Must have at least 14 members


they did not demand cdf membership there.... but have here and although i like most of the clan mods i feel they have overstepped the mark against dako in thi8s thread.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:41 pm

IcePack wrote:It was changed via the settings or rules which I'm fine with improving each year. like timing out, cup tied, settings (nuke, trench) etc.

Not the basic set up / function of the whole event. Big difference.

Your opinion. Someone other think that the same how it can be improved settings/timing out, that it can be improved format as well. All what I am asking is give them CHANCE to construct their argument and vote their opinion. If they will put some terrible format idea that everyone dislikes, their fault, no? Zero votes for the proposal in that case, no?
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:48 pm

josko.ri wrote:
IcePack wrote:It was changed via the settings or rules which I'm fine with improving each year. like timing out, cup tied, settings (nuke, trench) etc.

Not the basic set up / function of the whole event. Big difference.

Your opinion. Someone other think that the same how it can be improved settings/timing out, that it can be improved format as well. All what I am asking is give them CHANCE to construct their argument and vote their opinion. If they will put some terrible format idea that everyone dislikes, their fault, no? Zero votes for the proposal in that case, no?


I don't have a problem with a vote. But I don't think Dako should be required to hold one nor do I think the event should be altered in its format. I think the door is wide open if you feel so much support for a different event style, that you can create a new event.
Thereby making a vote completely unnecessary.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby Keefie on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:21 pm

IcePack wrote:I don't have a problem with a vote. But I don't think Dako should be required to hold one nor do I think the event should be altered in its format. I think the door is wide open if you feel so much support for a different event style, that you can create a new event.
Thereby making a vote completely unnecessary.


Shall we have a vote on whether we need to vote ?

Personally, I would much rather see a random draw. I agree with Vid-Fiso that the 1 to 32 seeded fixed bracket just becomes a turkey shoot with very few surprises. We gave it our best shot in CC3 and then were criticsised for having the temerity to play some quads and trips on small maps to try and increase our chances. Well I'll state here that if we enter CC4 then there's every chance we'll do that again.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:27 pm

Keefie wrote:
IcePack wrote:I don't have a problem with a vote. But I don't think Dako should be required to hold one nor do I think the event should be altered in its format. I think the door is wide open if you feel so much support for a different event style, that you can create a new event.
Thereby making a vote completely unnecessary.


Shall we have a vote on whether we need to vote ?

Personally, I would much rather see a random draw. I agree with Vid-Fiso that the 1 to 32 seeded fixed bracket just becomes a turkey shoot with very few surprises. We gave it our best shot in CC3 and then were criticsised for having the temerity to play some quads and trips on small maps to try and increase our chances. Well I'll state here that if we enter CC4 then there's every chance we'll do that again.


I know you drew some flake for that but IMO that was smart play on your part to best your chances of moving forward. It draws a bit on luck instead of skill but just like in sports if you know you can't win by using method X you got to get creative.

Using a random draw would not really advance your position much. If you got a weaker opponent you'd advance until you met someone down the line where you'd employ much the same tactic no? It doesn't stop you from using it or (eventually) facing top level play so why bother? I just don't understand what random draw actually brings to the table.

Eventually your going to face strong opposition. You'll either be ready or your not.
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:32 pm

IcePack wrote:Eventually your going to face strong opposition. You'll either be ready or your not.

True, but is it better to go out of competition with 1 win and 1 lost, or just 1 lost?
Some clans play to get the trophy, while some (lower) clans are very happy with just one win. Current system does not give them any real chance to get the wanted win. My proposed system allows them much better chance to catch a win.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:35 pm

josko.ri wrote:
IcePack wrote:Eventually your going to face strong opposition. You'll either be ready or your not.

True, but is it better to go out of competition with 1 win and 1 lost, or just 1 lost?
Some clans play to get the trophy, while some (lower) clans are very happy with just one win. Current system does not give them any real chance to get the wanted win. My proposed system allows them much better chance to catch a win.


I would argue that the current system encourages those "lower clans" to improve and desire to compete at a higher level. Then they can legitimately compete and increase competition across all clan lines instead of randomly gaining an additional medal and keeping competition as a whole lower.

Speaking on a personal level CC3 was the main reason I move forward with helping create the Fallen. We lost in Round 1, to a better clan. I wanted to win and pass that round of 32 so we sought ways to improve so next time, we could be ready to compete at this higher level.

If we had won round 1, I probably would have stuck around thinking we were better than we really were and would have not encouraged / started the desire to see real improvement.
Last edited by IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:38 pm

IcePack wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
IcePack wrote:Eventually your going to face strong opposition. You'll either be ready or your not.

True, but is it better to go out of competition with 1 win and 1 lost, or just 1 lost?
Some clans play to get the trophy, while some (lower) clans are very happy with just one win. Current system does not give them any real chance to get the wanted win. My proposed system allows them much better chance to catch a win.


I would argue that the current system encourages those "lower clans" to improve and desire to compete at a higher level. Then they can legitimately compete and increase competition across all clan lines instead of randomly gaining an additional medal and keeping competition as a whole lower.

With my system they can easier achieve 1 win, and the being kicked by top clans, or how you call it "being encouraged to improve and desire to compete at higher level". They will for sure be much more encouraged and desired to complete at higher level if they first beat some equal level clan, and then got beaten by top clan in round 2, instead of just being beaten by top clan in round 1.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:39 pm

Edited my post above with a personal example.
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
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12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:12 pm

Here is some comparing between my proposed idea and current idea. Let's compare "weight" of draw for some clans in those 2 ideas. The comparison is made in ideal case, supposing no upsets will happen.
Legend: 6 numbers-meaning= which clans they face in R64/R32/16/8/4/2
D=Dako's, J= Josko's

Clan #1: D(-/32/16/8/4/2) J(-/-/16/8/4/2)
Clan #9: D(-/25/8/1/4/2) J(-/25/8/1/4/2) NO DIFFERENCE
Clan #16: D(-/17/1/8/4/2) J(-/17/1/8/4/2) NO DIFFERENCE
Clan #17: D(-/16/1/8/4/2) J(32/16/1/8/4/2)
Clan #25: D(-/24/8/1/4/2) J(24/9/8/1/4/2)
Clan #32: D(-/1/16/8/4/2) J(17/9/8/1/4/2)

So let's compare. For clans 9-16 no difference in formats. For clans 1-8 there is just minor difference that they do not play round 1 vs clans 25-32, which are often not interesting matches nor for winners nor for losers as it happens big margin wins. Positive thing for top clan, in addition they would rather take a break after CC3 than play some non interesting match and win with big margin.

So, as conclusion, majority of differences are coming for clans of 17 and lower. Let's see:

Clan 17 has in round 1 clan 32, other is the same for them like in Dako's system, so practically everything the same. If they are not capable to win vs clan 16 places lower ranked, then they does not deserve shot at clan #16, which was given to them by default in Dako's system.

Clan 25 instead of giving them shot at #1 too early, after one equal match and one upset, they have much more equal playing field throughout the tournament by facing 24,9,8. If they are capable to win vs those 3, they will be very motivated and for sure capable to put great fight vs #1.

How we are going lower to the draw, advantage of my system for lower clans in comparing with Dako's system are becoming much more visible. look at clan #32, is for them better to be hard kicked by clan #1 in round 1, or give them clans 17/9/8 before they face clan number 1? if they somehow beat 3 in a row, they will be much stronger opposition to clan #1 because of great morale and motivation, than they would be in Dako's round 1, when lower clans are mainly new clans not good organized yet. After 3 wins in a row, they would be very well organized so then match #1vs#32 would be much better than in Dako's round 1.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:18 pm

The main event of clans should not be the place for improving or learning IMO. This is a measurement / tournament of clans ability while the learning area is internal for clans, thru regular wars thru time etc.

This is a tournament isn't it, to find the best / winner not help every clan get medals and get as far as they can.
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:21 pm

IcePack wrote:I would argue that the current system encourages those "lower clans" to improve and desire to compete at a higher level.

IcePack wrote:The main event of clans should not be the place for improving or learning IMO.


Well, if you do not speak in one post one thing, and in another post something totally opposite, I would take you more seriously.

When someone starts playing tennis, does he play his first match vs Roger Federer, or he starts at Challengers, advances to ATP, and after some wins in a row eventually get a chance to play vs Federer?

In which case he will achieve better performance vs Federer? In his the first professional match, or after he won several matches in a row, and then, full of confidence, come to play vs Federer?
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