CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:12 pm

Doc_Brown wrote:Just out of curiosity, is there any other tournament (clan or otherwise) where the organizer has presented all format and rule questions for a vote? I haven't followed all the various tournaments for very long, so this is an honest question. In my limited experience, tournament organizers always determine what the settings will be (possibly with some input and proposed modifications).


In the case where you (honestly) asked question, tournament organizer come with his idea, starts tournament and make it how he wishes.

In this case, tournament existed and he alone assigned himself to run existing tournament, going over the ones who should have power to do so, CDs.

If you wanted comparison here is real honest comparison... What happens in Tournament section when TO abandons tourney (which is case here)? TOs put announcement if someone wish to rescue the tournament, and then interested player(s) say their wish, and they give to one of them to rescue the tournament. This analogy is what I am actually proposing. CDs put announcement to everyone to make their proposal how the CC4 should look, if more than one proposal comes, CDs put it on voting in their forum and give power of running the event to the one with the most votes. Isn't it the same principle which is already occurring in tournament section, which you (honestly) want to compare with this?
Last edited by josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby ahunda on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:13 pm

Doc_Brown wrote:Just out of curiosity, is there any other tournament (clan or otherwise) where the organizer has presented all format and rule questions for a vote? I haven't followed all the various tournaments for very long, so this is an honest question. In my limited experience, tournament organizers always determine what the settings will be (possibly with some input and proposed modifications).

The set-up of the Clan League, the other big clan event, has always been the result of debate & votes by clan representatives.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:23 pm

@ josko - that's true for tournaments. However when someone takes over a tournament they don't alter the tournament format. They run it according to the originally defined rules.

@ ahubda - that's true. And out of the two major events (CC and CL) which has the larger history of problems, arguments, and which has overall run smoothly in comparison?
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby Doc_Brown on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:44 pm

josko.ri wrote:Obviously, tyranny is more welcome here than democracy. =D>


Now that we've established that point, can we return to giving our Dear Leader feedback on V5 format? ;)
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby ahunda on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:48 pm

IcePack wrote:@ ahubda - that's true. And out of the two major events (CC and CL) which has the larger history of problems, arguments, and which has overall run smoothly in comparison?

You mean like the rule of 21 games being forfeit in the TOFU - KORT challenge some years back ?
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:49 pm

ahunda wrote:
IcePack wrote:@ ahubda - that's true. And out of the two major events (CC and CL) which has the larger history of problems, arguments, and which has overall run smoothly in comparison?

You mean like the rule of 21 games being forfeit in the TOFU - KORT challenge some years back ?


Tell me how changing the seeding / draw would have improved that situation?
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:02 pm

IcePack wrote:
ahunda wrote:
IcePack wrote:@ ahubda - that's true. And out of the two major events (CC and CL) which has the larger history of problems, arguments, and which has overall run smoothly in comparison?

You mean like the rule of 21 games being forfeit in the TOFU - KORT challenge some years back ?


Tell me how changing the seeding / draw would have improved that situation?

of course it was run smoothly because it had the most simple format. Kid who just learned mathematics can arrange format of 1v32 2v31 etc, it is very simple, and therefore runable smoothly by itself.

The fact that something is simple does not mean that it is the best/the most enjoyable. I already explained it to you by example, if simpler=better then we would all still play 6 players, classic, flat rate, adjacent. The fact is that simple can be run by itself and that people will have fun in it. But, with some changes it can be even better. Why not try it? or why at least not ASK people if we will try it, but rather choose tyrannic way of saying "It will be like this regardless of your wishes."
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:07 pm

Nobody is stopping you from running your own event if you feel so strongly about more options, random draws, or whatever else you care about.

What I'm opposed to is changing the cup - which was never intended to be more than a simple bracket tournament, and making it something completely different.

Then what the majority wants doesn't matter anymore. No votes needed. No hurt feelings. If your set up is far superior, then more clans will sign up for it. If this really has no support, it will die out naturally with little participation.

You can hold as many votes as you like, until every last detail is determined. Nobody is stopping you.

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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby ahunda on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:14 pm

IcePack wrote:
ahunda wrote:
IcePack wrote:@ ahubda - that's true. And out of the two major events (CC and CL) which has the larger history of problems, arguments, and which has overall run smoothly in comparison?

You mean like the rule of 21 games being forfeit in the TOFU - KORT challenge some years back ?


Tell me how changing the seeding / draw would have improved that situation?

Eh ? What has that got to do with anything I said ? I am not arguing about the seeding/draw here. I don´t have any strong preference in that regard, and I haven´t mentioned the issue with a single word in my last posts.

You were implying, that the Cup has always run smoothly, and so I pointed out to you, that there have been problems & issues in the Cups history as well.

I fail to see the connection here anyway: What has the seeding/draw procedure, that is done before the actual start of the tournament, to do with the question, if the Cup itself then runs smoothly ?
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:17 pm

IcePack wrote:Nobody is stopping you from running your own event if you feel so strongly about more options, random draws, or whatever else you care about.

What I'm opposed to is changing the cup - which was never intended to be more than a simple bracket tournament, and making it something completely different.

Then what the majority wants doesn't matter anymore. No votes needed. No hurt feelings. If your set up is far superior, then more clans will sign up for it. If this really has no support, it will die out naturally with little participation.

You can hold as many votes as you like, until every last detail is determined. Nobody is stopping you.

IcePack

CCup is there to serve wish of clans in overall as it is one of 2 major events, not to serve Dako's, my nor your wish. That said, clan world should determine in democratic way what THEY wish to have for the major event. Democracy in deciding is only what I am asking for. That is unfortunately not present in this format.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:26 pm

josko.ri wrote:
IcePack wrote:Nobody is stopping you from running your own event if you feel so strongly about more options, random draws, or whatever else you care about.

What I'm opposed to is changing the cup - which was never intended to be more than a simple bracket tournament, and making it something completely different.

Then what the majority wants doesn't matter anymore. No votes needed. No hurt feelings. If your set up is far superior, then more clans will sign up for it. If this really has no support, it will die out naturally with little participation.

You can hold as many votes as you like, until every last detail is determined. Nobody is stopping you.

IcePack

CCup is there to serve wish of clans in overall as it is one of 2 major events, not to serve Dako's, my nor your wish. That said, clan world should determine in democratic way what THEY wish to have for the major event. Democracy in deciding is only what I am asking for. That is unfortunately not present in this format.


It never has been I have no idea why you think that it would start now to change the setup of the major event.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:33 pm

IcePack wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
IcePack wrote:Nobody is stopping you from running your own event if you feel so strongly about more options, random draws, or whatever else you care about.

What I'm opposed to is changing the cup - which was never intended to be more than a simple bracket tournament, and making it something completely different.

Then what the majority wants doesn't matter anymore. No votes needed. No hurt feelings. If your set up is far superior, then more clans will sign up for it. If this really has no support, it will die out naturally with little participation.

You can hold as many votes as you like, until every last detail is determined. Nobody is stopping you.

IcePack

CCup is there to serve wish of clans in overall as it is one of 2 major events, not to serve Dako's, my nor your wish. That said, clan world should determine in democratic way what THEY wish to have for the major event. Democracy in deciding is only what I am asking for. That is unfortunately not present in this format.


It never has been I have no idea why you think that it would start now to change the setup of the major event.

You are wrong, the event was changed (improved) every year. Why now should be different?
On one way you say it should not be changed, and it other way some parts of changing you are supporting.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby IcePack on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:37 pm

It was changed via the settings or rules which I'm fine with improving each year. like timing out, cup tied, settings (nuke, trench) etc.

Not the basic set up / function of the whole event. Big difference.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby eddie2 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:39 pm

ahunda wrote:
Doc_Brown wrote:Just out of curiosity, is there any other tournament (clan or otherwise) where the organizer has presented all format and rule questions for a vote? I haven't followed all the various tournaments for very long, so this is an honest question. In my limited experience, tournament organizers always determine what the settings will be (possibly with some input and proposed modifications).

The set-up of the Clan League, the other big clan event, has always been the result of debate & votes by clan representatives.



this is wrong because from what i remember things were still being talked about and voting on when qwert opened up the sign up thread before everything was finalized.
and like i said earlier dako agreed to run this event clan directors did not decide to run it but have came in here replying to questions aimed at the organizer of this event which caused confusion in this event as to who the organizer was...

same as the way they were stating that you must be a member of cdf to take part so they could vote on issues needed. when in affect the player from each clan who is holding the privs for this event probably wont be a member of cdf to make the vote. or read all posts regarding the vote. like with clan league half the clans reps for it are not cdf members so why have votes regarding it in there where they cannot read it..

even look at qwerts thread for the league....

1.Clan League Sign Up Proposition
Clan Eligibility
To sign up for CL5, each clan must meet the following criteria.
1-Must be eligible to be members of CD&F (Adhere to the 1 competitive clan rule)
2-Must have completed (enough wins for a decisive winner) 2 competitive clan wars of at least 40 games
3- Must have existed for 3 months
4- Must have at least 14 members


they did not demand cdf membership there.... but have here and although i like most of the clan mods i feel they have overstepped the mark against dako in thi8s thread.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Postby josko.ri on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:41 pm

IcePack wrote:It was changed via the settings or rules which I'm fine with improving each year. like timing out, cup tied, settings (nuke, trench) etc.

Not the basic set up / function of the whole event. Big difference.

Your opinion. Someone other think that the same how it can be improved settings/timing out, that it can be improved format as well. All what I am asking is give them CHANCE to construct their argument and vote their opinion. If they will put some terrible format idea that everyone dislikes, their fault, no? Zero votes for the proposal in that case, no?
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