THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Doc_Brown on Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:43 am

Has a suggestion been submitted to change the site and automatically give a card to a player that times out? If the suggestion was offered and rejected, then it seems like it should be an acceptable, albeit distasteful, practice. A change in the game mechanics would eliminate concerns about subjective judgements on whether a timing out was accidental or intentional.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby jetsetwilly on Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:50 am

Appreciate the support Ahunda. This discussion has been held before, people are more than welcome to discuss it again but not on this thread please.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Genoke on Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:51 am

Ace Rimmer wrote:Conquering and timing out is a strategic option (the same as teammate killing, or trimming a stack without conquering, or starting a turn, dropping on a teammate, and not attacking).

I agree with this. And i wouldn't call it cheating, since everybody is able to choose that kind of option...
Meaning, that every team should be prepared to the possibility of the option by the other team.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby josko.ri on Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:39 pm

Can we name qwert's and my option " Progressive Format"?
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby IcePack on Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:57 pm

josko.ri wrote:Can we name qwert's and my option " Progressive Format"?


Or keep them all neutral and say Format A, B, C etc. ;) So there is no "influencing" the voters, like you were so worried about previously. :)
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Keefie on Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:21 pm

IcePack wrote:
Or keep them all neutral and say Format A, B, C etc. ;) So there is no "influencing" the voters, like you were so worried about previously. :)


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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby HardAttack on Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:41 pm

ahunda wrote:HA, stop attacking the CDs for this. You obviously don´t know the history & background of this rule.

This goes back to a long debate right here in the public Clans forum, where a great majority, lots of players from different clans, almost unanimously deemed this practice unacceptable & wanted to ban it from clan games.

If you don´t like it, then feel free to argue & maybe ask for a new vote on the issue, but don´t blame the CDs for it. It was not their personal idea or initiative.

What we are talking about are situations like this: Team 1 has nailed Team 2 to the wall, forced them into a situation, where they either need to break a bonus of Team 1, thus getting a card & setting themselves up for a kill with midturn-cash (which will likely mean the win for Team 1) or leave the bonus alone (which will likely mean the win for Team 1 as well). Now Team 2 goes ahead, breaks the bonus, but then times out & doesn´t get the card.

That´s cheap play, abuse of a loophole, as close to cheating as you can get. And I for one don´t want to see this kind of thing happening. So the rule has my full support.


Maybe my pointing CDs was wrong since i am told it that this thing is not their own/personal willing but something wanted by many ppl.
Well this is a democratic platform and if 51 over 100 wants something then allright...
However, i will disagree with you, i see every way to be valid as long as it brings me the victory excluding certain abuses, such as sitting abuses.
Site gives me the option to run out of time, and once i see running out of time in any particular circumstance going to work for me, i will do, i will follow that path, why not ?
If this is against rules/ and if my clan is going to suffer from this, then i will not do, however i will feel and believe it that i am NOT wrong here.
I dont see this being any piece of badsportmanship/cheap tactic whatever you like to call it.
This is an option there stays, and i am simply utilizing the given option.
Are we aware of it that lately we are shaping the gaming practice in two ways, that is rules for clan games and rules for other type of games...I dont know where this is going to take us to, how many more limits are going to be defined and so...

Do not run out of time, pick a card to nuke your 3 territs in a nuclear game...Well, this makes not any sense to me.
I ll not accept this, but will obey the rules. Rules are rules, but rules are not correct everytime.
If this is cheap tactic, hey give me my cheap tactic medal which i am going to carry with pride.
Majority set the rules, but majority do not bring and put all the truths all the time.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Doc_Brown on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:01 pm

HardAttack wrote:
ahunda wrote:HA, stop attacking the CDs for this. You obviously don´t know the history & background of this rule.

This goes back to a long debate right here in the public Clans forum, where a great majority, lots of players from different clans, almost unanimously deemed this practice unacceptable & wanted to ban it from clan games.

If you don´t like it, then feel free to argue & maybe ask for a new vote on the issue, but don´t blame the CDs for it. It was not their personal idea or initiative.

What we are talking about are situations like this: Team 1 has nailed Team 2 to the wall, forced them into a situation, where they either need to break a bonus of Team 1, thus getting a card & setting themselves up for a kill with midturn-cash (which will likely mean the win for Team 1) or leave the bonus alone (which will likely mean the win for Team 1 as well). Now Team 2 goes ahead, breaks the bonus, but then times out & doesn´t get the card.

That´s cheap play, abuse of a loophole, as close to cheating as you can get. And I for one don´t want to see this kind of thing happening. So the rule has my full support.


Maybe my pointing CDs was wrong since i am told it that this thing is not their own/personal willing but something wanted by many ppl.
Well this is a democratic platform and if 51 over 100 wants something then allright...
However, i will disagree with you, i see every way to be valid as long as it brings me the victory excluding certain abuses, such as sitting abuses.
Site gives me the option to run out of time, and once i see running out of time in any particular circumstance going to work for me, i will do, i will follow that path, why not ?
If this is against rules/ and if my clan is going to suffer from this, then i will not do, however i will feel and believe it that i am NOT wrong here.
I dont see this being any piece of badsportmanship/cheap tactic whatever you like to call it.
This is an option there stays, and i am simply utilizing the given option.
Are we aware of it that lately we are shaping the gaming practice in two ways, that is rules for clan games and rules for other type of games...I dont know where this is going to take us to, how many more limits are going to be defined and so...

Do not run out of time, pick a card to nuke your 3 territs in a nuclear game...Well, this makes not any sense to me.
I ll not accept this, but will obey the rules. Rules are rules, but rules are not correct everytime.
If this is cheap tactic, hey give me my cheap tactic medal which i am going to carry with pride.
Majority set the rules, but majority do not bring and put all the truths all the time.


Since Jetsetwilly has requested this discussion be moved elsewhere, I created a suggestion thread regarding this tactic requesting either that the possibility for the tactic be removed or that there be an official statement that it is an acceptable strategy.

Edit: Corrected spelling of Jetsetwilly
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Finsfleet on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:40 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:
ahunda wrote:That´s cheap play, abuse of a loophole, as close to cheating as you can get. And I for one don´t want to see this kind of thing happening. So the rule has my full support.


Conquer Club was created in January 2006 with the option to time out your turn and not get a card. It is now March 2013. This part of the game mechanism has been in place for over 7 years. This is not a loophole, this is how the site and game mechanics were designed. You can disagree with it (personally I think that you should get a card as long as you conquer/bombard a terit to zero regardless of whether or not you click End Turn) but I would not call it a loophole. It is working as designed.

Compare this to the way that team games finished when they hit a round limit. It was originally set up for the PLAYER with the most troops to get the win for his team (instead of the TEAM with the most troops). This was changed after public opposition. If there is an issue with the game mechanics allowing conquering without cards, then the game mechanics should be changed, there should not be a subjective rule in place to address this issue.

Conquering and timing out is a strategic option (the same as teammate killing, or trimming a stack without conquering, or starting a turn, dropping on a teammate, and not attacking).

Ace

Yes. Except. We`re talking about CC, the one which is scared of changes. Take your money and go site. The one that doesn`t care for its customers. Seven years is way too short for them.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby niMic on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:18 pm

Oh, I don't know. A LOT has changed since 2006.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby chapcrap on Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:30 pm

For me, most of the options here are whatever, doesn't really matter. The biggest things seem to be seeding, byes, and getting things done on time. It doesn't seem like having a random draw for every round is a very good idea for time. The whole thing will take even longer that way because you have to wait for all the wars to finish before you can start the next round. In addition, you wouldn't be able to plan ahead for future opponents in anyway unless everyone was given a break between rounds, which would then make the event even longer. We're talking about an 18 month thing at this point. And at the pace things are moving, we may not start until mid-summer. It will be horrendous.

Now, a random or semi-random draw for the first round, I would have no problem with. Just not every round.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby josko.ri on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:04 pm

chapcrap wrote:For me, most of the options here are whatever, doesn't really matter. The biggest things seem to be seeding, byes, and getting things done on time. It doesn't seem like having a random draw for every round is a very good idea for time. The whole thing will take even longer that way because you have to wait for all the wars to finish before you can start the next round. In addition, you wouldn't be able to plan ahead for future opponents in anyway unless everyone was given a break between rounds, which would then make the event even longer. We're talking about an 18 month thing at this point. And at the pace things are moving, we may not start until mid-summer. It will be horrendous.

Now, a random or semi-random draw for the first round, I would have no problem with. Just not every round.

That is good explanation but everyone ignored my suggestion to present format plus explanation on voting so now you have players voting without deeper understanding for good and bad points of the suggestion they vote for. Players who just read format maybe do not understand background for the idea.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby josko.ri on Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:19 am

Also I think that calling option 3 "Alternative" Format is extremely biased and unfair move made by jetsetwilly. There have already been my 2 requests to change the name of it, together with IcePack's suggestion and my agreement on that to name formats A,B,C.

Who would vote for something "Alternative" without name if he can vote for something "Normal" with recognized name?

Also, if anything is "Alternative" here, that is option 2. All other 4 options has some kind of seeding involved, only option 2 does not have it, so if we really needed to give nicknames to suggestion, then option 2 deserves nickname "Alternative".
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Keefie on Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:00 am

josko.ri wrote:
Also, if anything is "Alternative" here, that is option 2. All other 4 options has some kind of seeding involved, only option 2 does not have it, so if we really needed to give nicknames to suggestion, then option 2 deserves nickname "Alternative".


Josko, think about it. Why would a clan outside of the top 16 in the F400 vote for an option that gives a preferential draw to the top 16. You could have dressed your idea in a frock and called it Mary but it was never going to win.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Leehar on Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:43 am

Keefie wrote:Josko, think about it. Why would a clan outside of the top 16 in the F400 vote for an option that gives a preferential draw to the top 16. You could have dressed your idea in a frock and called it Mary but it was never going to win.


Perhaps we expected clans to vote for a better overall tournament rather than pure self-interest?
I can't argue with the reasoning, but if you get to the quarters and semi's and still have lopsided scorelines, than there's something inherently wrong?

Ah well, the heart wants what the heart wants :)
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