THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Doc_Brown on Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:43 am

Has a suggestion been submitted to change the site and automatically give a card to a player that times out? If the suggestion was offered and rejected, then it seems like it should be an acceptable, albeit distasteful, practice. A change in the game mechanics would eliminate concerns about subjective judgements on whether a timing out was accidental or intentional.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby jetsetwilly on Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:50 am

Appreciate the support Ahunda. This discussion has been held before, people are more than welcome to discuss it again but not on this thread please.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Genoke on Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:51 am

Ace Rimmer wrote:Conquering and timing out is a strategic option (the same as teammate killing, or trimming a stack without conquering, or starting a turn, dropping on a teammate, and not attacking).

I agree with this. And i wouldn't call it cheating, since everybody is able to choose that kind of option...
Meaning, that every team should be prepared to the possibility of the option by the other team.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby josko.ri on Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:39 pm

Can we name qwert's and my option " Progressive Format"?
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby IcePack on Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:57 pm

josko.ri wrote:Can we name qwert's and my option " Progressive Format"?


Or keep them all neutral and say Format A, B, C etc. ;) So there is no "influencing" the voters, like you were so worried about previously. :)
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Keefie on Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:21 pm

IcePack wrote:
Or keep them all neutral and say Format A, B, C etc. ;) So there is no "influencing" the voters, like you were so worried about previously. :)


+1
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby HardAttack on Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:41 pm

ahunda wrote:HA, stop attacking the CDs for this. You obviously don´t know the history & background of this rule.

This goes back to a long debate right here in the public Clans forum, where a great majority, lots of players from different clans, almost unanimously deemed this practice unacceptable & wanted to ban it from clan games.

If you don´t like it, then feel free to argue & maybe ask for a new vote on the issue, but don´t blame the CDs for it. It was not their personal idea or initiative.

What we are talking about are situations like this: Team 1 has nailed Team 2 to the wall, forced them into a situation, where they either need to break a bonus of Team 1, thus getting a card & setting themselves up for a kill with midturn-cash (which will likely mean the win for Team 1) or leave the bonus alone (which will likely mean the win for Team 1 as well). Now Team 2 goes ahead, breaks the bonus, but then times out & doesn´t get the card.

That´s cheap play, abuse of a loophole, as close to cheating as you can get. And I for one don´t want to see this kind of thing happening. So the rule has my full support.


Maybe my pointing CDs was wrong since i am told it that this thing is not their own/personal willing but something wanted by many ppl.
Well this is a democratic platform and if 51 over 100 wants something then allright...
However, i will disagree with you, i see every way to be valid as long as it brings me the victory excluding certain abuses, such as sitting abuses.
Site gives me the option to run out of time, and once i see running out of time in any particular circumstance going to work for me, i will do, i will follow that path, why not ?
If this is against rules/ and if my clan is going to suffer from this, then i will not do, however i will feel and believe it that i am NOT wrong here.
I dont see this being any piece of badsportmanship/cheap tactic whatever you like to call it.
This is an option there stays, and i am simply utilizing the given option.
Are we aware of it that lately we are shaping the gaming practice in two ways, that is rules for clan games and rules for other type of games...I dont know where this is going to take us to, how many more limits are going to be defined and so...

Do not run out of time, pick a card to nuke your 3 territs in a nuclear game...Well, this makes not any sense to me.
I ll not accept this, but will obey the rules. Rules are rules, but rules are not correct everytime.
If this is cheap tactic, hey give me my cheap tactic medal which i am going to carry with pride.
Majority set the rules, but majority do not bring and put all the truths all the time.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Doc_Brown on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:01 pm

HardAttack wrote:
ahunda wrote:HA, stop attacking the CDs for this. You obviously don´t know the history & background of this rule.

This goes back to a long debate right here in the public Clans forum, where a great majority, lots of players from different clans, almost unanimously deemed this practice unacceptable & wanted to ban it from clan games.

If you don´t like it, then feel free to argue & maybe ask for a new vote on the issue, but don´t blame the CDs for it. It was not their personal idea or initiative.

What we are talking about are situations like this: Team 1 has nailed Team 2 to the wall, forced them into a situation, where they either need to break a bonus of Team 1, thus getting a card & setting themselves up for a kill with midturn-cash (which will likely mean the win for Team 1) or leave the bonus alone (which will likely mean the win for Team 1 as well). Now Team 2 goes ahead, breaks the bonus, but then times out & doesn´t get the card.

That´s cheap play, abuse of a loophole, as close to cheating as you can get. And I for one don´t want to see this kind of thing happening. So the rule has my full support.


Maybe my pointing CDs was wrong since i am told it that this thing is not their own/personal willing but something wanted by many ppl.
Well this is a democratic platform and if 51 over 100 wants something then allright...
However, i will disagree with you, i see every way to be valid as long as it brings me the victory excluding certain abuses, such as sitting abuses.
Site gives me the option to run out of time, and once i see running out of time in any particular circumstance going to work for me, i will do, i will follow that path, why not ?
If this is against rules/ and if my clan is going to suffer from this, then i will not do, however i will feel and believe it that i am NOT wrong here.
I dont see this being any piece of badsportmanship/cheap tactic whatever you like to call it.
This is an option there stays, and i am simply utilizing the given option.
Are we aware of it that lately we are shaping the gaming practice in two ways, that is rules for clan games and rules for other type of games...I dont know where this is going to take us to, how many more limits are going to be defined and so...

Do not run out of time, pick a card to nuke your 3 territs in a nuclear game...Well, this makes not any sense to me.
I ll not accept this, but will obey the rules. Rules are rules, but rules are not correct everytime.
If this is cheap tactic, hey give me my cheap tactic medal which i am going to carry with pride.
Majority set the rules, but majority do not bring and put all the truths all the time.


Since Jetsetwilly has requested this discussion be moved elsewhere, I created a suggestion thread regarding this tactic requesting either that the possibility for the tactic be removed or that there be an official statement that it is an acceptable strategy.

Edit: Corrected spelling of Jetsetwilly
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Finsfleet on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:40 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:
ahunda wrote:That´s cheap play, abuse of a loophole, as close to cheating as you can get. And I for one don´t want to see this kind of thing happening. So the rule has my full support.


Conquer Club was created in January 2006 with the option to time out your turn and not get a card. It is now March 2013. This part of the game mechanism has been in place for over 7 years. This is not a loophole, this is how the site and game mechanics were designed. You can disagree with it (personally I think that you should get a card as long as you conquer/bombard a terit to zero regardless of whether or not you click End Turn) but I would not call it a loophole. It is working as designed.

Compare this to the way that team games finished when they hit a round limit. It was originally set up for the PLAYER with the most troops to get the win for his team (instead of the TEAM with the most troops). This was changed after public opposition. If there is an issue with the game mechanics allowing conquering without cards, then the game mechanics should be changed, there should not be a subjective rule in place to address this issue.

Conquering and timing out is a strategic option (the same as teammate killing, or trimming a stack without conquering, or starting a turn, dropping on a teammate, and not attacking).

Ace

Yes. Except. We`re talking about CC, the one which is scared of changes. Take your money and go site. The one that doesn`t care for its customers. Seven years is way too short for them.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby niMic on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:18 pm

Oh, I don't know. A LOT has changed since 2006.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby chapcrap on Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:30 pm

For me, most of the options here are whatever, doesn't really matter. The biggest things seem to be seeding, byes, and getting things done on time. It doesn't seem like having a random draw for every round is a very good idea for time. The whole thing will take even longer that way because you have to wait for all the wars to finish before you can start the next round. In addition, you wouldn't be able to plan ahead for future opponents in anyway unless everyone was given a break between rounds, which would then make the event even longer. We're talking about an 18 month thing at this point. And at the pace things are moving, we may not start until mid-summer. It will be horrendous.

Now, a random or semi-random draw for the first round, I would have no problem with. Just not every round.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby josko.ri on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:04 pm

chapcrap wrote:For me, most of the options here are whatever, doesn't really matter. The biggest things seem to be seeding, byes, and getting things done on time. It doesn't seem like having a random draw for every round is a very good idea for time. The whole thing will take even longer that way because you have to wait for all the wars to finish before you can start the next round. In addition, you wouldn't be able to plan ahead for future opponents in anyway unless everyone was given a break between rounds, which would then make the event even longer. We're talking about an 18 month thing at this point. And at the pace things are moving, we may not start until mid-summer. It will be horrendous.

Now, a random or semi-random draw for the first round, I would have no problem with. Just not every round.

That is good explanation but everyone ignored my suggestion to present format plus explanation on voting so now you have players voting without deeper understanding for good and bad points of the suggestion they vote for. Players who just read format maybe do not understand background for the idea.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby josko.ri on Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:19 am

Also I think that calling option 3 "Alternative" Format is extremely biased and unfair move made by jetsetwilly. There have already been my 2 requests to change the name of it, together with IcePack's suggestion and my agreement on that to name formats A,B,C.

Who would vote for something "Alternative" without name if he can vote for something "Normal" with recognized name?

Also, if anything is "Alternative" here, that is option 2. All other 4 options has some kind of seeding involved, only option 2 does not have it, so if we really needed to give nicknames to suggestion, then option 2 deserves nickname "Alternative".
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Keefie on Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:00 am

josko.ri wrote:
Also, if anything is "Alternative" here, that is option 2. All other 4 options has some kind of seeding involved, only option 2 does not have it, so if we really needed to give nicknames to suggestion, then option 2 deserves nickname "Alternative".


Josko, think about it. Why would a clan outside of the top 16 in the F400 vote for an option that gives a preferential draw to the top 16. You could have dressed your idea in a frock and called it Mary but it was never going to win.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Leehar on Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:43 am

Keefie wrote:Josko, think about it. Why would a clan outside of the top 16 in the F400 vote for an option that gives a preferential draw to the top 16. You could have dressed your idea in a frock and called it Mary but it was never going to win.


Perhaps we expected clans to vote for a better overall tournament rather than pure self-interest?
I can't argue with the reasoning, but if you get to the quarters and semi's and still have lopsided scorelines, than there's something inherently wrong?

Ah well, the heart wants what the heart wants :)
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby josko.ri on Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:35 am

Keefie wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
Also, if anything is "Alternative" here, that is option 2. All other 4 options has some kind of seeding involved, only option 2 does not have it, so if we really needed to give nicknames to suggestion, then option 2 deserves nickname "Alternative".


Josko, think about it. Why would a clan outside of the top 16 in the F400 vote for an option that gives a preferential draw to the top 16. You could have dressed your idea in a frock and called it Mary but it was never going to win.

Qwert's/my suggestion is actually favor to lower ranked clans, and it was made mainly because of them. I regret if they fail to understand that. So let me explain:
Let's see what results clans ranked #1-8 achieved vs clans ranked #25-32 in the past CCups:
TOFU-SOH: 35/5
PACK-RA: 34/7
TSM-T4C: 33/8
TSM-TLW: 33/8
EMP-DBC: 32/9
IA-RA: 30/11
AoC-VDLL: 29/12
EMP-AKA: 28/13
FOED-VDLL: 27/14
KORT-LOTZ: 25/16
AoC-1RFG: 25/16
LOW-OSA: 24/17
IA-HH: 23/18

So, no one of those matches came even close to be upset. Who enjoyed in those matches? Nor top clans enjoys in winning with so big gap, nor lower clans enjoys in being so hard beaten. From my personal experience, we in KORT even lowered our play level in past Round of 32 (For example, KORT did not play Hive map, which is our the strongest map which we never lost) so if we played our full strength, gap would be even higher. But who enjoyed in hard kicking someone so lower ranked than you? Nobody. Actually, maybe GLG enjoyed.

So now, Let's see how will some lower ranked clan, let's say clan #25, make their path in different suggested formats:

Red Option 1
Green Option 2
Blue Option 3

Option 1.a (Seeded system): In round 1, they already get top clan #8, so to achieve a single win, they need to do what nobody ever did in past-beat clan ranked #1-8 by clan ranked #25-32. In short, this is one and the only round played by clans ranked lower than #25. Who would enjoy in matches played on this way? Nor top clans like to play non interesting matches and get easy wins, nor lower clans enjoy in being so hard beaten, nor spectators enjoy in following matches like that.

Option 3.a:
Round 1: Clan ranked #25 will play vs someone ranked #17-24. You see, it is very equal playing field where chances to win are more or less 50/50%.
Round 2: If clan ranked #25 achieve win in Round 1, they will play vs some clan ranked #9-16. Playing vs 9-16 ranked and being already very encouraged by win in round 1 will still be more chance to win than comparing to option 1.a where they play vs clan #8
Round 3: And now, all lower ranked clan who achieved 2 wins in a row vs more or less equal level clans, are going to face some top level clan ranked #1-8. But, isn't it very different to play vs clan #1-8 when you already have achieved 2 wins in a row vs lower clans, being full encouraged and confident in yourself, and being high motivated to make another upset vs top clan, than playing vs them in Round 1, when lower ranked clan is stil maybe unorganized, unmotivated, unskilled, or whatever? Every win increase your skills/organization/motivation/self-confidence so facing top clan in Round 3 will for sure give them better chance to win that facing top clan in Round 1. See OSA for example, after 2 wins in a row their skill/organization/motivation/self-confidence had raised so much that they were almost able to beat #1 clan.


I think this comparison told enough why option 3 is better than option 1 for any lower clan. Now is going comparison why option 3 is better than option 2 (Random draw) for lower clans, again considering from a clan ranked #25:

With option 3, clan ranked #25 will have this draw:
Round 1: Opponent will be a clan ranked #17-24
Round 2: Opponent wil be clan ranked #9-16
Round 3: Opponent will be clan ranked #1-8


With option 2, clan ranked #25 will have this draw:
Round 1:
25% chance to play vs clan #1-8
25% chance to play vs clan ranked 9-16
50% chance to play vs clan ranked 17-32
As conclusion, with this format there is only 50% chance that clan #25 will get clan ranked lower than #16. In my suggestion, there is 100% chance that clan #25 will get clan ranked lower than #16 in round 1.

Round 2:
Right here, we will already have less lower ranked clans than it would be with suggestion 3. The ones unlucky who get top ranked clans in Round 1 will be hard beaten, and probably most of them who get mid ranked clans will also be beaten, maybe 1-2 upsets. Just a few the most luckier than get other lower ranked clan will be default advance to Round 2. In total, there should not be more than 6 lower ranked clan in Round 2 with random draw. (4 which got lucky draw to play vs other ranked clan, and 2 that made little upset vs mid ranked clan)

So, the 6 low ranked clans will get draw against other 10 clans. Maybe 1-2 of the match-ups will again be very lucky to get other low ranked clans while everyone other will get some strong opposition right here and will be hard beaten.


As conclusion, with random format, in Round 3 it will maybe progress one low ranked clan that luckily got easy draw, and another one that maybe made upset vs mid ranked clan. I know from viewpoint of some low ranked clan everyone is praying that exactly they will be the one clan who will get lucky draw, but in reality, much more of low ranked clans will be hard spanked in Round 1 or Round 2, or even in Round 3 by a Top clan in some non interesting match, which will lead to non interesting tournament nor for players nor for spectators.

Another point is that if you award top clans with byes in early round, then new editions of CCups will be faster. Right now, we need to wait until CC3 finishes in order to not give (semi)finalists to play 2 competitions at the same time. Semifinals and finals are together lasting like 5 months. If we accept my suggestion, CC4 can start right now, as we do not need to wait for CC3 (semi)finals to finish. CC5 can also start while semifinals of CC4 is still underway, so this is another great point for lower clans, they will have chance to participate in CCup more often. Right now, who is eliminated in round 1 need to wait one year for next edition. With byes to top clans, start of the next edition can overlap with end of previous edition, so waiting time for new participation chance will be around 8 months. Isn't it better for lower clans to have chance to play in the major Cup more often, without penalizing top clans to play 2 editions at the same time?

Third point, the most important, is that every round with suggestion 3 will have the most possible equal playing field, in early rounds everyone will play vs clans who are ranked more or less equal than them, and in later rounds Top clans will play vs very encouraged and motivated clans who are already in positive killing spree series. For overall progress of clan world and the tournament, interesting matches is something that is the most needed. As conclusion, every round will have the most interesting matches with only rarely some high margin win by any clan. With random draw it is high probability that we will have a lot of non interesting matches, even in later rounds, which does not happen with other draw types. In overall, for clan world that is really bad. Players like excitement and tough matches, so with boring matches players can start leaving clan scene and overall interest for it can go down. That is for sure not the way how we will maintain clan scene on high interesting level, which it has been maintained and improved for past years.


You see, my suggestion in overall is in favor of lower ranked clans. Who has ears let him hear it.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby josko.ri on Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:47 am

Also, here is my self-interest viewpoint on random draw, if we suppose I only think about my ass and not about overall clan world progress: Let's say KORT is very "lucky" in the draw and gets to play vs all lower ranked clan in first 3 rounds. for example, we have random draw, and it comes like #1vs26, 27vs30, 32vs31, 25vs28 then next round #1vs27, 32vs25, and in third round #1vs25. Hell no. I play this game for fun, and I have a lot of fun when my opponents are more or less equal playing field than my team so matches are then very interesting. Right now I already have 6-0 score in CL5 where we are playing vs a lot of low ranked clans, and I really do not enjoy in it. In all 6 games there have still not happened anything close to fair fight, so I even sent my lower maps to play at home field vs those clans, because what I am searching for is fun, and there will be more fun if playing level is more equal, so in order to equalize playing level I sent lower maps and do not even play my the best maps. Now, with random draw it can happen that in 2-3 starting rounds my clan will be playing vs some very weak clan, and I already have headache of having several consecutive months of playing non-interesting matches which would happen in that case. So I even need to lower my playing field by not sending the strongest maps in order to have interesting games.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Leehar on Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:30 pm

The feeling was that this [Option 3] was even more elitist and inequitable than option 1. It's not about having a better chance to win in round 1, it's about all clans being treated equally in how the competition is set up.


Whats your response Josko?

I'm just trying to grasp the differing opinions here, and why in essence being Seeded seems grossly unfavourable to some clans.


Edit: Perhaps the Bye's are an issue? Why should a low-ranked clan have to fight similar quality opponents for 2 tough rounds before coming up against rested and refreshed Top 8 clan
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Armandolas on Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:12 pm

I would like to give my opinion.My opinion is only based om my competitive view and not on personal matters or my own clan interests.

I believe option 3 is the best until round3. In round 3 ALL matches should be pure RANDOM. Enough of seedings, because this is still a cup and a cup should be unpredictable.
(to illustrate this try to imagine old days Champions League draws..you have seedings in early stages, then its pure random)

I think this is by far the most fair and entertaining system.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Foxglove on Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:24 pm

Leehar wrote:
The feeling was that this [Option 3] was even more elitist and inequitable than option 1. It's not about having a better chance to win in round 1, it's about all clans being treated equally in how the competition is set up.


Whats your response Josko?

I'm just trying to grasp the differing opinions here, and why in essence being Seeded seems grossly unfavourable to some clans.


I will summarize my opinions, for people who won't read all of josko's comments. :)

I think many clans are failing to comprehend the difference between a system that treats every clan exactly the same (completely random) and a system that will produce a great competition with competitive match-ups.

Option 1 (the system for the previous three cups) will produce the most imbalanced match-ups, as it means that logically speaking, the bottom half of the ranks are likely to be eliminated in round 1, because each of them will be matched against a higher ranked clan. In many circumstances the imbalance will be extreme (1v32, 2v31, etc.).

I think this imbalance is what is causing so many clans to favor Option 2, the completely random draw. The bottom half of the clans (by rank) might feel like this is their golden ticket to advance. What if TOFU/KORT/AFOS/AOC/OSA etc. are all matched up in the initial round?! Half of the strong clans might be knocked out and smooth the way for the lower ranked clans to skate through to a higher position. And if you're ranked 25 or 33 or whatever, then f*ck yeah, right?!

Option 3 is the most complex and seems, on the surface, to be unfair if you only think about it with your gut. Things become more clear, though, if you use your head. It gives byes to the higher ranked clans, and allows the lower ranked clans to play each other in the early rounds. When the more highly ranked clans start entering the bracket, they will be playing the winners of the previous matches and all of the competitions should be strong and relatively fair. People who are against this option probably fall into 3 camps:
1. They don't think anyone deserves a bye. Fair enough - then we should go with option 1.
2. They're lazy and haven't bothered to read and understand how this favors progress for lower ranked clans (I think a lot of people fall into this category).
3. They want the option that will allow their clan the highest chance to succeed, regardless of ranking. This means they are illogical, and probably favor option 2 (GOLDEN TICKET!!!!@!, f*ck YEAH!@#$@).
Last edited by Foxglove on Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Armandolas on Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:00 pm

Foxglove wrote:
Leehar wrote:
The feeling was that this [Option 3] was even more elitist and inequitable than option 1. It's not about having a better chance to win in round 1, it's about all clans being treated equally in how the competition is set up.


Whats your response Josko?

I'm just trying to grasp the differing opinions here, and why in essence being Seeded seems grossly unfavourable to some clans.


I will summarize my opinions, for people who won't read all of josko's comments. :)

I think many clans are failing to comprehend the difference between a system that treats every clan exactly the same (completely random) and a system that will produce a great competition with competitive match-ups.

Option 1 (the system for the previous three cups) will produce the most imbalanced match-ups, as it means that logically speaking, the bottom half of the ranks are likely to be eliminated in round 1, because each of them will be matched against a higher ranked clan. In many circumstances the imbalance will be extreme (1v32, 2v31, etc.).

I think this imbalance is what is causing so many clans to favor Option 2, the completely random draw. The bottom half of the clans (by rank) might feel like this is their golden ticket to advance. What if TOFU/KORT/AFOS/AOC/OSA etc. are all matched up in the initial round?! Half of the strong clans might be knocked out and smooth the way for the lower ranked clans to skate through to a higher position. And if you're ranked 25 or 33 or whatever, then f*ck yeah, right?! if a clan is ranked low it generally means that its members are some combination of inexperienced (they're not familiar with all of the maps and settings and strategies on CC), illogical (they play poorly), and unreliable (they miss turns or make wacky moves). The thing is, I'm fairly certain that allowing everyone an "exactly equal" vote is going to result in a ridiculously random competition. Time will tell.

Option 3 is the most complex and seems, on the surface, to be unfair if you only think about it with your gut. Things become more clear, though, if you use your head. It gives byes to the higher ranked clans, and allows the lower ranked clans to play each other in the early rounds. When the more highly ranked clans start entering the bracket, they will be playing the winners of the previous matches and all of the competitions should be strong and relatively fair. People who are against this option probably fall into 3 camps:
1. They don't think anyone deserves a bye. Fair enough - then we should go with option 1.
2. They're lazy and haven't bothered to read and understand how this favors progress for lower ranked clans (I think a lot of people fall into this category).
3. They want the option that will allow their clan the highest chance to succeed, regardless of ranking. This means they are illogical, and probably favor option 2 (GOLDEN TICKET!!!!@!, f*ck YEAH!@#$@).


Sry, but you seem a bit harsh on your points.Thats not what i understood from josko suggestion. Your argumentation is only about top clans avoiding eachother. So i believe your interpretation of josko arguments is wrong.
It looks like the one wanting a free ticket to an advanced stage is you, not the lower clans.
Even if i would agree in a pure random draw since round 1 , the chance of 2 great clans achieving the final is great.
The way it looks you see it , is that u want a fixed draw.Well...why dont we just proceed to the semi final with the top 4 clans and ignore the rest?
A draw is part of a cups fun...it should not be entirely fixed until the final. But i believe top clans are in the top by merit, so they should forfeit in the earlier rounds.
The other must earn in game the right to play with them.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Foxglove on Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:16 pm

Armandolas wrote:Sry, but you seem a bit harsh on your points.


No need to apologize to me!

Armandolas wrote:Thats not what i understood from josko suggestion. Your argumentation is only about top clans avoiding eachother. So i believe your interpretation of josko arguments is wrong.


I summarized my own opinions. In even briefer summary, I do think it's unfair to force the high ranked clans to face each other early on. I support option 1 or option 3, and I think option 2 is basically ridiculous. I also think that option 3 gives lower ranked clans the fairest chance to win a match in the early rounds.

Armandolas wrote:It looks like the one wanting a free ticket to an advanced stage is you, not the lower clans.


Where did I say that? I would like the spirit and intention of the cup to remain similar to the previous three editions. Totally random match-ups are a huge divergence from that.

Armandolas wrote:Even if i would agree in a pure random draw since round 1 , the chance of 2 great clans achieving the final is great.
The way it looks you see it , is that u want a fixed draw.Well...why dont we just proceed to the semi final with the top 4 clans and ignore the rest?


Why would you suggest that? It doesn't seem particularly fair. Out of interest, I reviewed the round of 8 in CC1, CC2, and CC3. The 8 clans in the quarter-finals of each year were the top 8 ranks going into the competition, with one exception each in CC1 and CC2, and 2 exceptions in CC3. (#10 Legion in CC1, #11 FOED in CC2, #10 AFOS and #24 OSA in CC3).

Armandolas wrote:A draw is part of a cups fun...it should not be entirely fixed until the final. But i believe top clans are in the top by merit, so they should forfeit in the earlier rounds. The other must earn in game the right to play with them.


I don't understand what you mean here.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby niMic on Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:24 pm

I have to say, there is some merit to the idea that a certain point in the cup should be randomized. There is also a lot of merit to the idea that it should be entirely based on seeding, but both are valid ideas. Both are also used in competitive sports.

What is most definitely not used in competitive sports is a completely random draw. It will produce the worst competition of all the alternatives. You might end up with a ~10-15 ranked clan versus a top 3 clan in the finals. Which is a lot of fun for the lower ranked clan, who will still then proceed to be demolished in the finals. And if they aren't demolished, then they were anyway good enough to progress through a competition with a standard seeding process, making the entire random part pointless.

If we want to create an environment where clan wars are interesting beyond just the people playing in it, we have to avoid that. No one will care about a final with a low ranked clan against a high ranked clan, if that clan got there by a lucky (random) draw. However, if they got there by beating progressively tougher competition, "beating the seeding", it creates a storyline that a lot more people will be interested in.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Armandolas on Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:39 pm

Foxglove:

Armandolas wrote:
A draw is part of a cups fun...it should not be entirely fixed until the final. But i believe top clans are in the top by merit, so they should forfeit in the earlier rounds. The other must earn in game the right to play with them.

I don't understand what you mean here.

What i mean here is that top clan are in the top because they are good. So they should have an early BYE, so lower ranks can fight for the possibilitie/previlege of playing them later.
Also meant that a draw is one of the most interesting things about cups. Having a Kort vs Tofu in the Quarter-finals its not a bad thing, its awesome.
If u seed until the finals then probably you will know by now who will be in the final or semis.
If we go random from round 3 its still fun, and a lot of the "worst clans" are out allready. So everyone that reaches that stage is a good contender for the title, because they earned the right to be in round 3, either by rank or either by defeating other clans in early selective rounds.

Hope ive explained better this time
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Genoke on Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:46 pm

josko.ri wrote:
Keefie wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
Also, if anything is "Alternative" here, that is option 2. All other 4 options has some kind of seeding involved, only option 2 does not have it, so if we really needed to give nicknames to suggestion, then option 2 deserves nickname "Alternative".


Josko, think about it. Why would a clan outside of the top 16 in the F400 vote for an option that gives a preferential draw to the top 16. You could have dressed your idea in a frock and called it Mary but it was never going to win.

Qwert's/my suggestion is actually favor to lower ranked clans, and it was made mainly because of them. I regret if they fail to understand that. So let me explain:
Let's see what results clans ranked #1-8 achieved vs clans ranked #25-32 in the past CCups:
TOFU-SOH: 35/5
PACK-RA: 34/7
TSM-T4C: 33/8
TSM-TLW: 33/8
EMP-DBC: 32/9
IA-RA: 30/11
AoC-VDLL: 29/12
EMP-AKA: 28/13
FOED-VDLL: 27/14
KORT-LOTZ: 25/16
AoC-1RFG: 25/16
LOW-OSA: 24/17
IA-HH: 23/18

So, no one of those matches came even close to be upset. Who enjoyed in those matches? Nor top clans enjoys in winning with so big gap, nor lower clans enjoys in being so hard beaten. From my personal experience, we in KORT even lowered our play level in past Round of 32 (For example, KORT did not play Hive map, which is our the strongest map which we never lost) so if we played our full strength, gap would be even higher. But who enjoyed in hard kicking someone so lower ranked than you? Nobody. Actually, maybe GLG enjoyed.

So now, Let's see how will some lower ranked clan, let's say clan #25, make their path in different suggested formats:

Red Option 1
Green Option 2
Blue Option 3

Option 1.a (Seeded system): In round 1, they already get top clan #8, so to achieve a single win, they need to do what nobody ever did in past-beat clan ranked #1-8 by clan ranked #25-32. In short, this is one and the only round played by clans ranked lower than #25. Who would enjoy in matches played on this way? Nor top clans like to play non interesting matches and get easy wins, nor lower clans enjoy in being so hard beaten, nor spectators enjoy in following matches like that.

Option 3.a:
Round 1: Clan ranked #25 will play vs someone ranked #17-24. You see, it is very equal playing field where chances to win are more or less 50/50%.
Round 2: If clan ranked #25 achieve win in Round 1, they will play vs some clan ranked #9-16. Playing vs 9-16 ranked and being already very encouraged by win in round 1 will still be more chance to win than comparing to option 1.a where they play vs clan #8
Round 3: And now, all lower ranked clan who achieved 2 wins in a row vs more or less equal level clans, are going to face some top level clan ranked #1-8. But, isn't it very different to play vs clan #1-8 when you already have achieved 2 wins in a row vs lower clans, being full encouraged and confident in yourself, and being high motivated to make another upset vs top clan, than playing vs them in Round 1, when lower ranked clan is stil maybe unorganized, unmotivated, unskilled, or whatever? Every win increase your skills/organization/motivation/self-confidence so facing top clan in Round 3 will for sure give them better chance to win that facing top clan in Round 1. See OSA for example, after 2 wins in a row their skill/organization/motivation/self-confidence had raised so much that they were almost able to beat #1 clan.


I think this comparison told enough why option 3 is better than option 1 for any lower clan. Now is going comparison why option 3 is better than option 2 (Random draw) for lower clans, again considering from a clan ranked #25:

With option 3, clan ranked #25 will have this draw:
Round 1: Opponent will be a clan ranked #17-24
Round 2: Opponent wil be clan ranked #9-16
Round 3: Opponent will be clan ranked #1-8


With option 2, clan ranked #25 will have this draw:
Round 1:
25% chance to play vs clan #1-8
25% chance to play vs clan ranked 9-16
50% chance to play vs clan ranked 17-32
As conclusion, with this format there is only 50% chance that clan #25 will get clan ranked lower than #16. In my suggestion, there is 100% chance that clan #25 will get clan ranked lower than #16 in round 1.

Round 2:
Right here, we will already have less lower ranked clans than it would be with suggestion 3. The ones unlucky who get top ranked clans in Round 1 will be hard beaten, and probably most of them who get mid ranked clans will also be beaten, maybe 1-2 upsets. Just a few the most luckier than get other lower ranked clan will be default advance to Round 2. In total, there should not be more than 6 lower ranked clan in Round 2 with random draw. (4 which got lucky draw to play vs other ranked clan, and 2 that made little upset vs mid ranked clan)

So, the 6 low ranked clans will get draw against other 10 clans. Maybe 1-2 of the match-ups will again be very lucky to get other low ranked clans while everyone other will get some strong opposition right here and will be hard beaten.


As conclusion, with random format, in Round 3 it will maybe progress one low ranked clan that luckily got easy draw, and another one that maybe made upset vs mid ranked clan. I know from viewpoint of some low ranked clan everyone is praying that exactly they will be the one clan who will get lucky draw, but in reality, much more of low ranked clans will be hard spanked in Round 1 or Round 2, or even in Round 3 by a Top clan in some non interesting match, which will lead to non interesting tournament nor for players nor for spectators.

Another point is that if you award top clans with byes in early round, then new editions of CCups will be faster. Right now, we need to wait until CC3 finishes in order to not give (semi)finalists to play 2 competitions at the same time. Semifinals and finals are together lasting like 5 months. If we accept my suggestion, CC4 can start right now, as we do not need to wait for CC3 (semi)finals to finish. CC5 can also start while semifinals of CC4 is still underway, so this is another great point for lower clans, they will have chance to participate in CCup more often. Right now, who is eliminated in round 1 need to wait one year for next edition. With byes to top clans, start of the next edition can overlap with end of previous edition, so waiting time for new participation chance will be around 8 months. Isn't it better for lower clans to have chance to play in the major Cup more often, without penalizing top clans to play 2 editions at the same time?

Third point, the most important, is that every round with suggestion 3 will have the most possible equal playing field, in early rounds everyone will play vs clans who are ranked more or less equal than them, and in later rounds Top clans will play vs very encouraged and motivated clans who are already in positive killing spree series. For overall progress of clan world and the tournament, interesting matches is something that is the most needed. As conclusion, every round will have the most interesting matches with only rarely some high margin win by any clan. With random draw it is high probability that we will have a lot of non interesting matches, even in later rounds, which does not happen with other draw types. In overall, for clan world that is really bad. Players like excitement and tough matches, so with boring matches players can start leaving clan scene and overall interest for it can go down. That is for sure not the way how we will maintain clan scene on high interesting level, which it has been maintained and improved for past years.


You see, my suggestion in overall is in favor of lower ranked clans. Who has ears let him hear it.

I must say that Josko has given me another point of view here. which i like...good explanation there josko! =D>
reading all those comments from several people....i think i better change my vote.... :mrgreen:
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Colonel Genoke
 
Posts: 947
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:32 am
Location: Sweet Belgium!
Medals: 90
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (20) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (20) Tournament Contribution (2)

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