Adjustments to league format for CL6?

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Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby ViperOverLord on Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:03 am

I'm going to state my proposal for CL6 without the reasons for now, so that my concepts are clear and concise.

* Expand Premier League to 18-22 clans and have the clans play each other only one time.
* Have relegation league(s) that allow teams' the opportunity to get back into premier league for the following season.
* Have a map system that is not based upon a clan only using one map for an especially large time frame. Perhaps, a hybrid system that is half random and half allocated. A clan could reuse a map once it has been retired for three matches.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby benga on Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:21 am

I am in favor of a clan using somewhat a home map, a map that that clan use more often then others.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby iAmCaffeine on Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:48 am

ViperOverLord wrote:* Have relegation league(s) that allow teams' the opportunity to get back into premier league for the following season.


How would this work when all the clans participating play a series of games to determine the league they're entered into?
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby ViperOverLord on Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:05 pm

iAmCaffeine wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:* Have relegation league(s) that allow teams' the opportunity to get back into premier league for the following season.


How would this work when all the clans participating play a series of games to determine the league they're entered into?


My understanding is that was a one time play-in. From there, the top 4 teams or so (I don't recall the number) in a league advance to the next league and the bottom 4 or so teams are demoted. The problem with that system imo is that it can lock good clans out of the premier league for two years or even more. That's just too long. Some clans may even decide it's not worth it and drop the CL to focus upon challenges or CC Cup. I think we should want a system that isn't locking out good clans from high level competition for so long.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby ViperOverLord on Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:06 pm

benga wrote:I am in favor of a clan using somewhat a home map, a map that that clan use more often then others.


I'm in favor of them having something that plays more to their strengths. But, I do like at least a brief interim between map usage so that clans can't use a one dimensional strategy.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby iAmCaffeine on Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:59 am

Okay, seems like a fair proposal.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Keefie on Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:13 am

Drop the 1 map rule. It really is becoming more like the Random League.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Qwert on Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:39 am

ViperOverLord wrote:I'm going to state my proposal for CL6 without the reasons for now, so that my concepts are clear and concise.

* Expand Premier League to 18-22 clans and have the clans play each other only one time.
* Have relegation league(s) that allow teams' the opportunity to get back into premier league for the following season.
* Have a map system that is not based upon a clan only using one map for an especially large time frame. Perhaps, a hybrid system that is half random and half allocated. A clan could reuse a map once it has been retired for three matches.


Premier League of 18-22 clans,, this its to large and could last to long,

Only one time? this mean that someone can win on hes home games, and lost away, and overall will lost all points. I think that this its not fair.

I think that this will not work, because you will have top 10 clans who will stay almost forever in Premier League, except if they go social, or decline to play in premier,, this will dont give any chance to low clans to fight for possibility to enter into Premier League. I also though that promotion relegation could work, but many things could shake this construction, and every year you will have clans who skip to play, who could leave in middle of competition, and then you will need to make many mechanism who will fix this in fast way. Creating rules are not easy.

I dont see what its wrong with 1 map use? You have over 230 maps, and you want that some clan only use 20 maps for entire league. Its encourage clans to start use other maps to, and make more competitiveness in league .
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Finsfleet on Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:52 am

I support qwert. After last year's debacle, CL is interesting again. I like the format and I wouldn't change it.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby jetsetwilly on Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:55 am

I also like the current format, short of a few minor changes I would be happy to keep it as is.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby ViperOverLord on Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:00 pm

Finsfleet wrote:I support qwert. After last year's debacle, CL is interesting again. I like the format and I wouldn't change it.


What was last year's debacle and what makes it so huge that you want to make it so teams in third league are locked out of premier league for a minimum of two years? And btw, if they have a bad performance in second league, then that two year clock restarts. I find that system incomprehensible. Most clans do not want to get stuck in the mediocre leagues. They want to challenge themselves at the highest level.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby ViperOverLord on Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:19 pm

Qwert wrote:Premier League of 18-22 clans,, this its to large and could last to long


The hell it is. You have 11 teams playing each other twice for 20 rounds. 18-22 clans playing each other once is roughly the same amount. And btw, I'd be fine with PL going as high as 24 clans.

Qwert wrote:Only one time? this mean that someone can win on hes home games, and lost away, and overall will lost all points. I think that this its not fair.


Then don't make the match-ups home and away. Allow each clan to pick half of the non-random maps.

Qwert wrote:I think that this will not work, because you will have top 10 clans who will stay almost forever in Premier League, except if they go social, or decline to play in premier] this will dont give any chance to low clans to fight for possibility to enter into Premier League.


Does Manchester United, Chelsea and, Liverpool get relegated or are they essentially fixtures? I don't care if TOFU or KORT stay in the PL if they earn it year after year. The point is to have more opportunity for for more clans to compete at the highest level. Why would you want to relegate top clans to the second league so easily anyways? That seems rather counter intuitive to me.

Qwert wrote:I also though that promotion relegation could work, but many things could shake this construction, and every year you will have clans who skip to play, who could leave in middle of competition, and then you will need to make many mechanism who will fix this in fast way. Creating rules are not easy.


I don't think the minor issues regarding the relegation league has bearing on the readjustment. But, as far as the relegation system goes. I don't think it matters if there is one relegation league or two relegation leagues; so long as they offer a strong opportunity to get back into the premier league the next season. The three tier system is bunk.

Qwert wrote:I dont see what its wrong with 1 map use? You have over 230 maps, and you want that some clan only use 20 maps for entire league. Its encourage clans to start use other maps to, and make more competitiveness in league .


1. It gets annoying to track what maps were used.
2. There are only so many maps that clans feel they have a distinct advantage upon. Like Keefie said. This is turning into Random League.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby ViperOverLord on Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:42 pm

BTW: This isn't exactly the point. Because regardless of my clan's circumstances; I think that the premier league should be expanded and the relegation system designed to allow teams to reach the PL by the following season. But while my clan was in a state of flux with key departures, it did not help that we drew the group of death and then lose the second league tie breaker. Here are the one year rankings our group. We were all essentially second or premier league quality teams. Yet, because of quirky, random draw someone had to get screwed and relegated to the two year plan, which again is ridiculous.

IA - 2
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Keefie on Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:22 am

The use of home and away in order to even out any map advantage is undone by the 1 map rule. In rounds 15 and 16 we play our two main rivals in the competition and I'm going to struggle with map selection. It's making our 'home' games seem like away ones. This is why random maps are becoming more prevalent as the competition goes on. Clans are using them in the hope of scoring lucky with map selection. I think that allowing clans to use a map twice would alleviate this issue.

Qwert, rather than just dismissing suggestions, I would respectfully ask you to remain open to new ideas. ViperOverLord has come up with some good stuff and should be listened too.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Qwert on Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:56 am

Keefie wrote:The use of home and away in order to even out any map advantage is undone by the 1 map rule. In rounds 15 and 16 we play our two main rivals in the competition and I'm going to struggle with map selection. It's making our 'home' games seem like away ones. This is why random maps are becoming more prevalent as the competition goes on. Clans are using them in the hope of scoring lucky with map selection. I think that allowing clans to use a map twice would alleviate this issue.

Qwert, rather than just dismissing suggestions, I would respectfully ask you to remain open to new ideas. ViperOverLord has come up with some good stuff and should be listened too.


I dont going to be Clan League Director for CL6, so after all if you want to create totaly new Competition system, this will be up to clan community. I just say what i think its not good. Benga pointed he will like to have that clan use home maps, so if few maps be used, then we can call "CL6 Classic Map Leagues" .

Yet, because of quirky, random draw someone had to get screwed and relegated to the two year plan, which again is ridiculous.

IA - 2
OTP - 7
MD - 13
TFFS - 15
MM - 20 (Was 7 at the time we played them)
AQOH - 25

I dont quite understand what you mean to say? Who are screwed and relegated ? If system stay same, you will have again chance that from Qualification compete for Premier, Second or Third League, and all depend on your performance no mater how strong are your opponents.
But if you have 3 tier relegation-promotion,, then some clan will not get any chance to play against stronger clans, and will play in third league for long time.
Any how its only mine oppinion, and clans will decide , what they think its good and what are bad.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby ViperOverLord on Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:16 am

Qwert wrote:
Keefie wrote:The use of home and away in order to even out any map advantage is undone by the 1 map rule. In rounds 15 and 16 we play our two main rivals in the competition and I'm going to struggle with map selection. It's making our 'home' games seem like away ones. This is why random maps are becoming more prevalent as the competition goes on. Clans are using them in the hope of scoring lucky with map selection. I think that allowing clans to use a map twice would alleviate this issue.

Qwert, rather than just dismissing suggestions, I would respectfully ask you to remain open to new ideas. ViperOverLord has come up with some good stuff and should be listened too.


I dont going to be Clan League Director for CL6, so after all if you want to create totaly new Competition system, this will be up to clan community. I just say what i think its not good. Benga pointed he will like to have that clan use home maps, so if few maps be used, then we can call "CL6 Classic Map Leagues" .

Yet, because of quirky, random draw someone had to get screwed and relegated to the two year plan, which again is ridiculous.

IA - 2
OTP - 7
MD - 13
TFFS - 15
MM - 20 (Was 7 at the time we played them)
AQOH - 25

I dont quite understand what you mean to say? Who are screwed and relegated ? If system stay same, you will have again chance that from Qualification compete for Premier, Second or Third League, and all depend on your performance no mater how strong are your opponents.
But if you have 3 tier relegation-promotion,, then some clan will not get any chance to play against stronger clans, and will play in third league for long time.
Any how its only mine oppinion, and clans will decide , what they think its good and what are bad.


Okay; unless I'm misremembering, I thought it was proposed that the three tier system would be a fixture and that teams would be promoted/relegated based upon performance. If that aspect was not ratified as you say, then some of my points are moot.

I could see why you wouldn't want so many teams in the premier league if you were going to have to do a play-in. Then I guess to refine my idea; get rid of the play-in stuff and make the multi-leagues with relegation/promotion a fixture.

Have 24 team in the premier league and x amount in the second league and get rid of the third league. Make the 8 bottom premier teams get relegated to the second league the next year and promote the top 8 teams from the second league. And do something like that year after year and avoid the unnecessary play-ins time after time. But no third league that would keep teams out of premier league for a minimum of two years. That's not good in the evolving clan world.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Qwert on Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:57 am

nobody open any discusion abouth CL6 in CD&F, and also there its not have any rules in Cl5 abouth creation of Cl6 leagues .
We dont even talk about Cl6 in Cl5 .
You are clan leader, and you have acess in CD&F, so maybe you need to open topic there, and PM all clan leaders to make his oppinions.

The main problem with your 24 clan League, are some kind of Clan agrement,that no mater what happend, he need to play entire League, from start to end.
This its not same like English Premier League, where team sign contract, and have huge money guarantee to play in Premier League.
Here clan could quite after 5 rounds, and then what?
If this possibile i will be first to propose all this, but again you need to make good relegation and promotion rules, and also rules in case if someone drop from leagues.
I know how much time i spend on build rules for Cl5, and you never know how can some unexpected happens(like AOC,EMP and TOFU)
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby ViperOverLord on Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:25 am

Qwert wrote:nobody open any discusion abouth CL6 in CD&F, and also there its not have any rules in Cl5 abouth creation of Cl6 leagues .
We dont even talk about Cl6 in Cl5 .
You are clan leader, and you have acess in CD&F, so maybe you need to open topic there, and PM all clan leaders to make his oppinions.


Perhaps. But, I felt like we could get a greater mix of voices in the clan forum to start.

Qwert wrote:The main problem with your 24 clan League, are some kind of Clan agrement,that no mater what happend, he need to play entire League, from start to end.
This its not same like English Premier League, where team sign contract, and have huge money guarantee to play in Premier League.
Here clan could quite after 5 rounds, and then what?
If this possibile i will be first to propose all this, but again you need to make good relegation and promotion rules, and also rules in case if someone drop from leagues.
I know how much time i spend on build rules for Cl5, and you never know how can some unexpected happens(like AOC,EMP and TOFU)


It's not that your points aren't worthy in the right context. But, they have no real bearing on whether or not we should switch to a promotion/relegation system. Just as it is now, if a clan quits in the middle of the league, it would forfeit all its matches then to not give any clan an unfair advantage. If a clan withdraws before the premier league starts, then another team is promoted.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby QuikSilver on Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:34 pm

Finish second in premier league, get nothing but respect.

Finish first of third league... Get a medal.....

It's sounds weird to me. But for the debate of relagate clan. Top 4 of second league and bottom 4 of first matchup to see who Will be in first league or not. Others spot are secured
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby ViperOverLord on Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:42 am

QuikSilver wrote:Finish second in premier league, get nothing but respect.

Finish first of third league... Get a medal.....

It's sounds weird to me. But for the debate of relagate clan. Top 4 of second league and bottom 4 of first matchup to see who Will be in first league or not. Others spot are secured


Sounds like you're for a perpetual relegation/promotion system. I am, as I mentioned; provided there are plenty of spots in the premier league and whatever relegation league(s) offer a significant shot at promotion to the premier league for the season thereafter.
Last edited by ViperOverLord on Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby greenoaks on Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:04 am

i favour a 2 tiered system with relegation/promotion.

if a clan wants back in after dropping out a previous year or is new to CL they start in the 2nd tier.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Qwert on Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:06 am

dont get me wrong, viper, when i start build this Cl5 structure, mine though was also promotion -relegation system, but for this need to have even more involvement and more work. From what i see now, and with this experience,i realised that still its missing many more rules, who will handle all this promotion and relegation. Also responsibilities need to be much more high, and any new organiser need to get more free hands , so that he dont be drawn back when he make some decision. Or this need to be exclusive CD job, and CD need to become Main organiser who will do all things.
If this could be build in good way, then this could work, but need man who will take all this, and execute in almost professional way.
Otherwise this could be nightmare.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby greenoaks on Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:11 am

Qwert wrote:dont get me wrong, viper, when i start build this Cl5 structure, mine though was also promotion -relegation system, but for this need to have even more involvement and more work. From what i see now, and with this experience,i realised that still its missing many more rules, who will handle all this promotion and relegation. Also responsibilities need to be much more high, and any new organiser need to get more free hands , so that he dont be drawn back when he make some decision. Or this need to be exclusive CD job, and CD need to become Main organiser who will do all things.
If this could be build in good way, then this could work, but need man who will take all this, and execute in almost professional way.
Otherwise this could be nightmare.

which is what CD's are currently recruiting for. a real man. :)
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby chapcrap on Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:17 am

QuikSilver wrote:Finish second in premier league, get nothing but respect.

Finish first of third league... Get a medal.....

It's sounds weird to me. But for the debate of relagate clan. Top 4 of second league and bottom 4 of first matchup to see who Will be in first league or not. Others spot are secured

Same as wars I guess. Beat a bad clan 33-8, get a medal. Lose to a top 5 clan 20-21, get respect.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Donelladan on Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:38 pm

But if you have 3 tier relegation-promotion,, then some clan will not get any chance to play against stronger clans, and will play in third league for long time.
Any how its only mine oppinion, and clans will decide , what they think its good and what are bad.


I don't understand the pb with that. If you have in 3rd league then you are not that good. What would be the interest of people in 3rd league to play against top 5 clans? They won't have a chance, lost almost all their match, and that's it.
I am for, if a relegation-promotion system. 2 tier or 3 tier doesnt really matter for me. But if we have 3 league, then people from 3rd league wouldn't have a chance to go 1st league anyway even in a 2 tier system. So no big deal.
Plus if we have 3 league with 16 clans, then I think It will finish faster than 2 league with 24 clans, so as soon as we have winner for each league we start the new one. If we can do it faster than once a year, no problem of clan being stuck for too long in 3rd league if they deserve to go 1st league.

And for clan quitting in middle of a league, they start next season at the lowest league, I agree on Viper with that, no prob.
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