Adjustments to league format for CL6?

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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby IcePack on Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:11 pm

Dako wrote:Yeah, that was a bit daft on me :). It requires a bit more thought. Maybe something along the lines that clans are ranked based on CL results and skipping CL means getting out of ranks. But I wouldn't like being ranked on CL personally, CCup works way better for me.

Anyway, it's late here so I will leave this to you. Will be back tomorrow :).


Yeah I understand the intent, I just think we're ansking is promo/ relegation practical? And this solution trades one "is it practical" for another. We are sure to discuss further.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby firstholliday on Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:25 pm

BITE!!
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby benga on Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:55 pm

First of all I don't understand why is everybody talking about 3rd league?

18 clans for 1st league and the rest in 2nd league or something along those lines.

2ndly If we plan to have rel/promo in the future, it would be nice to announce that placement of this ones will be taken as seed for the next.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Leehar on Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:13 pm

benga wrote:First of all I don't understand why is everybody talking about 3rd league?

18 clans for 1st league and the rest in 2nd league or something along those lines.

2ndly If we plan to have rel/promo in the future, it would be nice to announce that placement of this ones will be taken as seed for the next.


We did consider that, maybe even a 20/20 split if we have the numbers for it, but then it doesn't really solve the question dualta was advocating in that you really have only 1 zone for the promotion/relegation criteria(maybe bottom 4 of premier, top 4 of 2nd league), and then falls flat in increasing competitiveness for the rest of the divisions?

I'm also hoping that this discourse continues to be held as a constructive debate rather than resulting in divisiveness that we sometimes do devolve into as part of the clan scene. There do remain some issues with any format, so hopefully we can keep in mind the goal is to have an all-inclusive competition for the entire clan scene rather than being centered too much on self-interest for what any clan would singularly prefer.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Vid_FISO on Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:40 pm

Keefie wrote:
Vid_FISO wrote:So 46 clans eligible and 21 vote? Whatever the result of a minority vote it can in no way be considered representative.

No idea what goes on within CD&F, not about to question our rep on what he says or votes on as he has my complete trust, but when it comes down to any war or clan tourney it's those that actually run it on behalf of their respective clans that should be involved in discussions and votes.

If there is no change in format then I will not be running our side of it again, it's a complete waste of a lot of my time and chances are that no-one else within the clan will step forward to pick it up. It would be interesting to know how many others, those that would actually be giving up serious amounts of their time, have the opportunity to make their points anywhere and be listened to?

21 out of 46? That's quite pathetic really!


If I recall correctly you stated in a previous post that the only changes you wanted for CL6 were an increase in map usage and more flexibilty regarding game labels. Well you will be able to use a map more than once and we will do our best regarding the second point.


Not 100% sure of exactly what I've said at any point but I do know that my main thought will always be that whether it be a war or a comp that any clan can use the maps and settings that they want to use rather than be forced into those that they don't. All wars I negotiate now permit us to do what we want within reason and also allow the opposition to do the same, if I don't like the terms then I withdraw from negotiations, if another member of the clan is prepared to take over the negotiations, compromise further and run it then fine, not my problem any more.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Foxglove on Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:28 pm

I honestly don't understand - what is the benefit of a promotion/relegation system, given that there is a fair amount of clan turnover (thanks for the stats, keefie)? Can someone please explain it to me?

Also, just my two cents on the possible mandatory participation for clans in the league: I think it's a terrible idea. Clans go dormant for periods, they take breaks, clan members take breaks, clans regroup, clans withdraw, etc. Committing season by season should be enough.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby uckuki on Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:13 pm

there is another possible solution that completely solves the question of
promotion/relegation:

play qualifications for CL6 and have only 1 league, dunno how many clans, not too
many not too few I guess, and everyone else is out until next year?
scrap multiple divisions and have just 1 league. no one is really hell bent
on playing them anyway.
but, do it in a way that's fair to all: open draw, no seeding, so lower ranked clans
have a shot at making it.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby friendly1 on Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:31 pm

Or have the winners of premier, 1st and 2nd leagues square off in a playoff. 2nd league winner plays first league winner for right to challenge premier league winner for overall champion. Then any clan in any league has the possibility of playing for "the title"
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Armandolas on Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:04 pm

uckuki wrote: I honestly don't see a point in playing 3rd division. Foed won 4th
division 2 years ago and it was a joke for us, felt like a waste of time.


Imo, this is one of the most important observations made until now.
I think this comp brainstrorming should start from here

Allow me to make comments on a few topics:
-1 map rule enforcement.Cant see any benefit here. It will just be a 2nd radom league after some point.
-Enforce participation to all clans is not a good idea. Clans should have free will. And if many of us "fight" for cds to have less control..then this would be outrageous.
-Relegation/promotion its the only way to do it ,if its decided to have more than 1 division.
-Bigger home sets (instead of 2-3-3 make it at least 3-4-3 or 4-4-4)
-Its a bad idea to have a league with many teams playing one round robin. After a while It will become very uninteresting to most of the teams. think maximum of 8/10 is what we can afford

Also allow me to suggest a different(i hope) format:
- x clans automatically qualified to 2nd stage through CL5 standings(ex: 1-3trd pr.league+1st 2nd league+1st 3rd league)
-Rest of the clans will have to go through a qualifying stage to reach stage 2(ex: x number of groups of 3/4/5 clans . 1st/2nd goes through
-x clans allready eliminated and x clans are now alltogether in the second phase. Small groups are made again to reach a final stage of 6/8 clans max

Edit: Ive made a simulation to better show what my idea is

Simulation:
-31 clans
-6 directly in Stage 2
-25 competing in Qual.Stage

Qualification Stage:
25 Clans
-5 groups of 5
-best 2 of each group qualify to Stage 2
-10 clans qualified / 15 clans eliminated

Stage 2:
16 clans
-4 groups of 4
-best 2 of each group qualify to final stage
-8 clans qualified ( 8 clans eliminated)

Final Stage:
8 clans
-1 group of 8
-6 best teams skip qualifying stage in CL7
Last edited by Armandolas on Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Please add a comment on my new map:
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby benga on Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:24 am

uckuki wrote:there is another possible solution that completely solves the question of
promotion/relegation:

play qualifications for CL6 and have only 1 league, dunno how many clans, not too
many not too few I guess, and everyone else is out until next year?
scrap multiple divisions and have just 1 league. no one is really hell bent
on playing them anyway.
but, do it in a way that's fair to all: open draw, no seeding, so lower ranked clans
have a shot at making it.


this could work, 3 groups for quali, top 4 advance

winning 2nd or lower league doesn't mean anything or you won to whole damn thing or you failed

winning 2nd league would make sense in promo/releg format
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Keefie on Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:55 pm

There are some great ideas here, that deserve further discussion for future events. But there was a 15/6 majority in favour of keeping CL6 largely the same as CL5.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby WPBRJ on Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:44 pm

Keefie wrote:There are some great ideas here, that deserve further discussion for future events. But there was a 15/6 majority in favour of keeping CL6 largely the same as CL5.


Is this still only about half of the competitive clans? I would bet a majority of those votes were upper clans and this is not a dig it's just seems like the upper clans care more about what happens.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Doc_Brown on Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:55 pm

Keefie wrote:There are some great ideas here, that deserve further discussion for future events. But there was a 15/6 majority in favour of keeping CL6 largely the same as CL5.


Is it possible that the vote was against changes because no reasonable proposals were included as examples of major changes to be individually discussed, so no one really knew what changes they would have been voting to approve? If the poll question was simply, "Do you want to see major changes to CL6 as compared to CL5? No discussion is permitted in this thread." I would have been shocked to see an affirmative result. A far better poll question would have been:
The following are potential changes to CL6 that would be a significant change compared to CL5. Should these proposals receive further discussion and individual votes, or should CL6 remain very similar in structure to CL5?
Proposal 1: xxxxx
Proposal 2: xxxxx
etc...
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby uckuki on Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:19 am

do we know who's in charge of CL6?
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby IcePack on Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:04 am

uckuki wrote:do we know who's in charge of CL6?


Lindax.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Keefie on Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:31 am

Doc_Brown wrote:
Keefie wrote:There are some great ideas here, that deserve further discussion for future events. But there was a 15/6 majority in favour of keeping CL6 largely the same as CL5.


Is it possible that the vote was against changes because no reasonable proposals were included as examples of major changes to be individually discussed, so no one really knew what changes they would have been voting to approve? If the poll question was simply, "Do you want to see major changes to CL6 as compared to CL5? No discussion is permitted in this thread." I would have been shocked to see an affirmative result. A far better poll question would have been:
The following are potential changes to CL6 that would be a significant change compared to CL5. Should these proposals receive further discussion and individual votes, or should CL6 remain very similar in structure to CL5?
Proposal 1: xxxxx
Proposal 2: xxxxx
etc...


Doc,

The clan leaders were give the choice of

1. No changes to the format. VOTES: 2

2. Minor changes, such as map use etc etc VOTES: 15

3. Major changes, such as promotion / relegation etc VOTES: 6

So it was pretty clear that the majority voted for no change or just small tweaks.

K
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby benga on Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:50 am

Keefie wrote:
Doc_Brown wrote:
Keefie wrote:There are some great ideas here, that deserve further discussion for future events. But there was a 15/6 majority in favour of keeping CL6 largely the same as CL5.


Is it possible that the vote was against changes because no reasonable proposals were included as examples of major changes to be individually discussed, so no one really knew what changes they would have been voting to approve? If the poll question was simply, "Do you want to see major changes to CL6 as compared to CL5? No discussion is permitted in this thread." I would have been shocked to see an affirmative result. A far better poll question would have been:
The following are potential changes to CL6 that would be a significant change compared to CL5. Should these proposals receive further discussion and individual votes, or should CL6 remain very similar in structure to CL5?
Proposal 1: xxxxx
Proposal 2: xxxxx
etc...


Doc,

The clan leaders were give the choice of

1. No changes to the format. VOTES: 2

2. Minor changes, such as map use etc etc VOTES: 15

3. Major changes, such as promotion / relegation etc VOTES: 6

So it was pretty clear that the majority voted for no change or just small tweaks.

K


And we still don't know what the format will be used or what exact rules are to be enforced.

Thus I did not vote and many others didn't cause they weren't even aware the vote was being held.

In past there was at least mass pm notfication to clan reps.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Lindax on Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:47 pm

benga wrote:
Keefie wrote:
Doc_Brown wrote:
Keefie wrote:There are some great ideas here, that deserve further discussion for future events. But there was a 15/6 majority in favour of keeping CL6 largely the same as CL5.


Is it possible that the vote was against changes because no reasonable proposals were included as examples of major changes to be individually discussed, so no one really knew what changes they would have been voting to approve? If the poll question was simply, "Do you want to see major changes to CL6 as compared to CL5? No discussion is permitted in this thread." I would have been shocked to see an affirmative result. A far better poll question would have been:
The following are potential changes to CL6 that would be a significant change compared to CL5. Should these proposals receive further discussion and individual votes, or should CL6 remain very similar in structure to CL5?
Proposal 1: xxxxx
Proposal 2: xxxxx
etc...


Doc,

The clan leaders were give the choice of

1. No changes to the format. VOTES: 2

2. Minor changes, such as map use etc etc VOTES: 15

3. Major changes, such as promotion / relegation etc VOTES: 6

So it was pretty clear that the majority voted for no change or just small tweaks.

K


And we still don't know what the format will be used or what exact rules are to be enforced.

Thus I did not vote and many others didn't cause they weren't even aware the vote was being held.

In past there was at least mass pm notfication to clan reps.


I did sent a PM to all clan reps.

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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Qwert on Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:45 am

well i have idea how will promotion relegation system work(im all ready present this).

With Premier League and two Second League.

Of course for first time unfortunately will need qualification stage(similar to CL5), or to use final standing from CL5 to fill .

Mine idea for promotion and relegation was reserve of CL5, but first format win.

I think that major mistake of Cd are ,before any votes, its need discusion abouth what rules need to be change---ofcourse discusion with community. Then its can talk about format changes( promotion -relegation or stay same).

Well att least this its how been in CL5, and like some point above in post, that in CD&F forums ,CL5 format and discussion had big number of post, and i was very active with communication with people, and this its key for good solutions.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Prince_Tottenham on Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:03 am

If you you guys can provide links for clan league (all tiers) with interested clans to join CL6, i can make a project for CL6 with keeping promotion/relegation system ( which i think it's best to keep it )
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Keefie on Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:12 am

Prince_Tottenham wrote:If you you guys can provide links for clan league (all tiers) with interested clans to join CL6, i can make a project for CL6 with keeping promotion/relegation system ( which i think it's best to keep it )


Clans voted 17-6 against promotion/relegation.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby WPBRJ on Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:11 am

Keefie wrote:
Doc,

The clan leaders were give the choice of

1. No changes to the format. VOTES: 2

2. Minor changes, such as map use etc etc VOTES: 15

3. Major changes, such as promotion / relegation etc VOTES: 6

So it was pretty clear that the majority voted for no change or just small tweaks.

K


i have to say i was not in any of the talks on this matter but am i understanding this correctly the vote was put up with no discussion on the matter just a vote.

if this is correct that vote is vague at best. i would have to say the vote is worthless if there were no options and details of the actual changes.


example: if i bring my broken car to a auto repair shop and the guy tells me i have three options and i have to choose one

1. leave it broken
2. we maybe be able to tweak it a little but we really cant tell you what we are going to tweak
3. we can do major modifications and again we cant really tell you what but it might help

and all in all is said with out a discussion i cant really make a good educated decision on the option i was given.

saying all of this that vote was vague with no discussion so it is not pretty clean by any means. i am all for the CD's running this monster but bottom line is we still should have say in it so there should be proper discussions to give us details on what we are actually voting on.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Keefie on Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:18 am

The above is just a summary of the options available to vote on.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Vid_FISO on Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:47 am

As a matter of interest, do you know who voted for what? How many of the votes came from clans that participated in CL5 and are very likely to enter CL6? Have any clans registered 2 (or more) votes due to CDs (and possibly others) being in CD&F along with a further nominated rep?
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