Adjustments to league format for CL6?

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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby ViperOverLord on Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:16 am

Qwert wrote:
Keefie wrote:The use of home and away in order to even out any map advantage is undone by the 1 map rule. In rounds 15 and 16 we play our two main rivals in the competition and I'm going to struggle with map selection. It's making our 'home' games seem like away ones. This is why random maps are becoming more prevalent as the competition goes on. Clans are using them in the hope of scoring lucky with map selection. I think that allowing clans to use a map twice would alleviate this issue.

Qwert, rather than just dismissing suggestions, I would respectfully ask you to remain open to new ideas. ViperOverLord has come up with some good stuff and should be listened too.


I dont going to be Clan League Director for CL6, so after all if you want to create totaly new Competition system, this will be up to clan community. I just say what i think its not good. Benga pointed he will like to have that clan use home maps, so if few maps be used, then we can call "CL6 Classic Map Leagues" .

Yet, because of quirky, random draw someone had to get screwed and relegated to the two year plan, which again is ridiculous.

IA - 2
OTP - 7
MD - 13
TFFS - 15
MM - 20 (Was 7 at the time we played them)
AQOH - 25

I dont quite understand what you mean to say? Who are screwed and relegated ? If system stay same, you will have again chance that from Qualification compete for Premier, Second or Third League, and all depend on your performance no mater how strong are your opponents.
But if you have 3 tier relegation-promotion,, then some clan will not get any chance to play against stronger clans, and will play in third league for long time.
Any how its only mine oppinion, and clans will decide , what they think its good and what are bad.


Okay; unless I'm misremembering, I thought it was proposed that the three tier system would be a fixture and that teams would be promoted/relegated based upon performance. If that aspect was not ratified as you say, then some of my points are moot.

I could see why you wouldn't want so many teams in the premier league if you were going to have to do a play-in. Then I guess to refine my idea; get rid of the play-in stuff and make the multi-leagues with relegation/promotion a fixture.

Have 24 team in the premier league and x amount in the second league and get rid of the third league. Make the 8 bottom premier teams get relegated to the second league the next year and promote the top 8 teams from the second league. And do something like that year after year and avoid the unnecessary play-ins time after time. But no third league that would keep teams out of premier league for a minimum of two years. That's not good in the evolving clan world.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Qwert on Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:57 am

nobody open any discusion abouth CL6 in CD&F, and also there its not have any rules in Cl5 abouth creation of Cl6 leagues .
We dont even talk about Cl6 in Cl5 .
You are clan leader, and you have acess in CD&F, so maybe you need to open topic there, and PM all clan leaders to make his oppinions.

The main problem with your 24 clan League, are some kind of Clan agrement,that no mater what happend, he need to play entire League, from start to end.
This its not same like English Premier League, where team sign contract, and have huge money guarantee to play in Premier League.
Here clan could quite after 5 rounds, and then what?
If this possibile i will be first to propose all this, but again you need to make good relegation and promotion rules, and also rules in case if someone drop from leagues.
I know how much time i spend on build rules for Cl5, and you never know how can some unexpected happens(like AOC,EMP and TOFU)
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby ViperOverLord on Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:25 am

Qwert wrote:nobody open any discusion abouth CL6 in CD&F, and also there its not have any rules in Cl5 abouth creation of Cl6 leagues .
We dont even talk about Cl6 in Cl5 .
You are clan leader, and you have acess in CD&F, so maybe you need to open topic there, and PM all clan leaders to make his oppinions.


Perhaps. But, I felt like we could get a greater mix of voices in the clan forum to start.

Qwert wrote:The main problem with your 24 clan League, are some kind of Clan agrement,that no mater what happend, he need to play entire League, from start to end.
This its not same like English Premier League, where team sign contract, and have huge money guarantee to play in Premier League.
Here clan could quite after 5 rounds, and then what?
If this possibile i will be first to propose all this, but again you need to make good relegation and promotion rules, and also rules in case if someone drop from leagues.
I know how much time i spend on build rules for Cl5, and you never know how can some unexpected happens(like AOC,EMP and TOFU)


It's not that your points aren't worthy in the right context. But, they have no real bearing on whether or not we should switch to a promotion/relegation system. Just as it is now, if a clan quits in the middle of the league, it would forfeit all its matches then to not give any clan an unfair advantage. If a clan withdraws before the premier league starts, then another team is promoted.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby QuikSilver on Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:34 pm

Finish second in premier league, get nothing but respect.

Finish first of third league... Get a medal.....

It's sounds weird to me. But for the debate of relagate clan. Top 4 of second league and bottom 4 of first matchup to see who Will be in first league or not. Others spot are secured
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby ViperOverLord on Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:42 am

QuikSilver wrote:Finish second in premier league, get nothing but respect.

Finish first of third league... Get a medal.....

It's sounds weird to me. But for the debate of relagate clan. Top 4 of second league and bottom 4 of first matchup to see who Will be in first league or not. Others spot are secured


Sounds like you're for a perpetual relegation/promotion system. I am, as I mentioned; provided there are plenty of spots in the premier league and whatever relegation league(s) offer a significant shot at promotion to the premier league for the season thereafter.
Last edited by ViperOverLord on Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby greenoaks on Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:04 am

i favour a 2 tiered system with relegation/promotion.

if a clan wants back in after dropping out a previous year or is new to CL they start in the 2nd tier.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Qwert on Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:06 am

dont get me wrong, viper, when i start build this Cl5 structure, mine though was also promotion -relegation system, but for this need to have even more involvement and more work. From what i see now, and with this experience,i realised that still its missing many more rules, who will handle all this promotion and relegation. Also responsibilities need to be much more high, and any new organiser need to get more free hands , so that he dont be drawn back when he make some decision. Or this need to be exclusive CD job, and CD need to become Main organiser who will do all things.
If this could be build in good way, then this could work, but need man who will take all this, and execute in almost professional way.
Otherwise this could be nightmare.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby greenoaks on Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:11 am

Qwert wrote:dont get me wrong, viper, when i start build this Cl5 structure, mine though was also promotion -relegation system, but for this need to have even more involvement and more work. From what i see now, and with this experience,i realised that still its missing many more rules, who will handle all this promotion and relegation. Also responsibilities need to be much more high, and any new organiser need to get more free hands , so that he dont be drawn back when he make some decision. Or this need to be exclusive CD job, and CD need to become Main organiser who will do all things.
If this could be build in good way, then this could work, but need man who will take all this, and execute in almost professional way.
Otherwise this could be nightmare.

which is what CD's are currently recruiting for. a real man. :)
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby chapcrap on Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:17 am

QuikSilver wrote:Finish second in premier league, get nothing but respect.

Finish first of third league... Get a medal.....

It's sounds weird to me. But for the debate of relagate clan. Top 4 of second league and bottom 4 of first matchup to see who Will be in first league or not. Others spot are secured

Same as wars I guess. Beat a bad clan 33-8, get a medal. Lose to a top 5 clan 20-21, get respect.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Donelladan on Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:38 pm

But if you have 3 tier relegation-promotion,, then some clan will not get any chance to play against stronger clans, and will play in third league for long time.
Any how its only mine oppinion, and clans will decide , what they think its good and what are bad.


I don't understand the pb with that. If you have in 3rd league then you are not that good. What would be the interest of people in 3rd league to play against top 5 clans? They won't have a chance, lost almost all their match, and that's it.
I am for, if a relegation-promotion system. 2 tier or 3 tier doesnt really matter for me. But if we have 3 league, then people from 3rd league wouldn't have a chance to go 1st league anyway even in a 2 tier system. So no big deal.
Plus if we have 3 league with 16 clans, then I think It will finish faster than 2 league with 24 clans, so as soon as we have winner for each league we start the new one. If we can do it faster than once a year, no problem of clan being stuck for too long in 3rd league if they deserve to go 1st league.

And for clan quitting in middle of a league, they start next season at the lowest league, I agree on Viper with that, no prob.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Qwert on Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:10 pm

Donelladan wrote:
But if you have 3 tier relegation-promotion,, then some clan will not get any chance to play against stronger clans, and will play in third league for long time.
Any how its only mine oppinion, and clans will decide , what they think its good and what are bad.


I don't understand the pb with that. If you have in 3rd league then you are not that good. What would be the interest of people in 3rd league to play against top 5 clans? They won't have a chance, lost almost all their match, and that's it.
I am for, if a relegation-promotion system. 2 tier or 3 tier doesnt really matter for me. But if we have 3 league, then people from 3rd league wouldn't have a chance to go 1st league anyway even in a 2 tier system. So no big deal.
Plus if we have 3 league with 16 clans, then I think It will finish faster than 2 league with 24 clans, so as soon as we have winner for each league we start the new one. If we can do it faster than once a year, no problem of clan being stuck for too long in 3rd league if they deserve to go 1st league.

And for clan quitting in middle of a league, they start next season at the lowest league, I agree on Viper with that, no prob.

Cl5 league will be finish in less then 8 month , third league will be finished in one month earlier. So this give 3 month for preparation for new League.

nothing against that , but first need to do several steps
1- are clans want this system of competition? (stronger clans could have objection on this, just look TOFU example, they withdraw on middle of CL5, so this clan will be automatic relegated into 3rd League)
2- who will be in Premier, who will be in Second-who will be in third?
3-new set of rules
4-organisation need to be same or higher then in CL5 , its will need people who will invest 100% time on this.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Prince_Tottenham on Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:40 pm

it's embarrassment to suggest a format where we can see top ranked clans playing in 2nd division or something like that, IMO division should be sorted by clan ranking, no way new clans or 1 or 2 average clan should fight in premier league just because they did well in 1 or 2 qualifying rounds.

I'm in 100% behind ViperOverLord over his plans.. also there is no need for playing each team twice, since we already do some home/away maps in each clan war, 1 game isn't bad, 2 is good, but you'll have less clans, you need more divisions, which could put a huge work-load on tournament organizers ( more tables - more threads etc.. ) .. and if one or two clans decided to withdraw from the league or the clan to be closed, you'll see the league become with less teams, specially if you have more than 2 tiers and that team quit from top tier, you may wish to punish them to the last tier but this might make more teams benefit from this situation, which kill the tournament spirit..

if you could make two tiers, this would be good:
1- Premier league 18-20 clans
2- Second league ( 2 groups - 16-20 in each - top 2 to be promoted )

or 24-24 may be good, but we need to study and make sure that.. the tournament won't take more than 12 months..

next year, we should have cup structure too, may be it's worth to take premier league clans plus half clans in each group in 2nd league, this idea to make some clans trying their best in last fixture games to reach clan cup... I would say this cup to be created to motive some clans to do best until the end.

why two groups in second league? there are many reasons:
1-if we added 3rd tier, this may kill some players passion in 3rd tier, as they couldn't think of 2 years stay commitment to CC, it might be too long for some people, so if they think they can fight in top flight division within 1 year, they would do a lot better.
2- as i said, better flexibility if a clan Extinct or withdraw from the league.. as i said above..

cheers..
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Qwert on Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:53 am

>>>if you could make two tiers, this would be good:
1- Premier league 18-20 clans
2- Second league ( 2 groups - 16-20 in each - top 2 to be promoted ) <<<<

i still think that this its to big number,, i even think that we dont have this number of clans here.
Maybe 18 clans could be maximum for Premier League,, and two Second league with 15 clans each.This can give you 48 clans total.
Also i think its possible to play separate home and away, if you start immediately league , because you could play 2 round every second week, and this will give you 34 week competition for Premier League,, and 28 week competition for Second League.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby jetsetwilly on Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:03 pm

First before deciding on change we should take feedback on whether cl5's structure has been popular.

Surely if the majority of clans are happy with the format then it doesn't need a major overhaul. (I have no idea if they are !)

Personally I think it was a lot stronger than the previous formats and would happily go again with the same.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Vid_FISO on Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:52 am

My thoughts from the bottom end of the clan ranks.

I've found CL5 to be a chore and as such became disinterested long ago in it. Initially the idea of covering a lot of different maps didn't seem too bad an idea as it would get more map views into clan members, but at the end of the day far too many maps means that beyond the one game at the time nothing really is likely to be picked up for future use. A very significant number of "home" maps that were nothing of the sort giving an instant advantage to opponents that are generally stronger with wider map knowledge, where's the competition or fun in that? Keeping maps back for specific individuals to lead that then were unavailable due to holidays/ internet problems/ life issues would also make some home maps into away maps too.

Splitting the clan ranks into roughly thirds, one third will never be relegated, one third will be forever trying to avoid relegation/ gain promotion and the one third will never be promoted in a two tier system, at least not without significant change in membership for any given clan.

Facing 2 different clans in the one game week, an okay idea but to me not really a good one, surely far easier for all to manage if one clan faces a different clan both home and away?

Micro-management of each match, surely unnecessary? With over 600 wars completed all clans have shown themselves capable of creating games and reporting results, okay, I'll grant you that some are more on the ball than others for both creation and reporting, but at least if it were 2 clans facing each other in one game week it would be more likely for one to chase the other to create games and at least one of the two (likely to be the winning clan) reporting results promptly.

Rather than having set game weeks I'd advocate "start by" dates, allowing clans to negotiate bringing the matches to an earlier date that might suit them better which would also make room for matches that might be better for both if delayed, say around Xmas or during the summer holiday period. And yes, that potentially allows a clan or two to get the bulk of their games played very quickly, is there any real harm in that?

Back to the "home" maps. Does it really hurt that much if any/ all clans just went with their "best" 8 for every home selection? In the qualifying groups I went with small maps and nukes against the top clans and kept our "best" maps back for opponents we'd have a better chance against, nobody got anything at all out of those games, nobody! Surely much better for everybody if nobody is handicapped against virtually each and every opponent. In a properly competitive league you want the best vs the best to know who is the best, name me one competition in any sport anywhere that is so restrictive as CL5 has been, or some clans insist upon generally for that matter.

CC has a lot of maps and a lot of settings these days, if any given clan favours a map with parachutes, trench, whatever to be their home choices then it should be their right to play it regardless. I'm not saying that we'd beat any of the top clans with our home selection but at least all of our players would be in a position to give it a better shot than with unfamiliar/ disliked maps/ settings.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby khazalid on Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:21 pm

excellent points
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Lindax on Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:50 pm

khazalid wrote:excellent points


Which ones? :lol:

Lx
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Prince_Tottenham on Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:07 am

so where we can go from this?

RGX very interested to join this clan league, and on behalf of this clan, I make my point of view very clear, we aren't afraid to fight the best clans at all, but it would be foolish decision to try to make a structure which give us a chance to fight in the top tier, and make qualifying rounds where top clans could lose 1 or 2 game and force them to play in 2nd tie.. that's called a cup, not a league.

for those clans who fought over the years, and in top positions in ranking, they must take their places in top tier. The others need to prove their worth and fight for promotion..

as for the structure, i think we've to avoid making more than 3 tiers, 2 is good, and 3 at most. Rather than 12 teams in each division and 22 rounds (each clan play others twice) .. I still think one of these could be good:

option 1: ( from current structure )
first division: from current 11 ( taking 6 from 2nd division - one clan to relegate ) = 16 clans
second division: from current 12 ( 6 lost due to promotion to 1st division + taking 8 from 3rd division + taking the 1 or 2 relegated teams from 1st division = 15-16 clans (not sure about the withdrawal of that clan if still keen to play or not)
third division: current 12 ( 8 which promoted to 2nd league and only 2 taken from 2nd division = 6 clans left in this tier, we can add the rest interested clans in this division )

option 2 :
First division : taking 1 clan from current league to relegate, taking the promoted clans from 2nd division, and make this league up to 20-24 clans ( each clan play others for just once ) .. (taking the best ranks outside current division, and surely there is debate whatever if bottom of current league can still make it by current ranks or force the relegation - I think force the relegation is better way to push them doing well in remaining games in current games )
it would be simple, 4 up and 4 down
2nd division, depends on if we make it 20 clans or 24 clans in top tier (4 up and 4 down )
if it's 20 clans, then 2nd division must be splitting it into 2 groups there. ( but it would be slightly difficult to take 4 down from 20 in top league, and also harsh to make 2nd tier with just 3 places while there ie groups and this could be harsh for 2nd teams who fought for title and see them not getting up )
in my opinion this is more flexible structure as it won't be effect by increase in clans in long term, we can make more groups.
but if it's 24 clans in top tier, we can make the 2nd division without groups, but we need to make playoff for promotion in 2nd league, 3 up automatically and 4 fighting in playoff to get the last place.

that's all i can say about this.. but i prefer option 2.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Qwert on Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:57 am

well i have League structure who could work for CL6,,ofcourse all results achived in Cl5 will decide who go where in new competition scheme.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Keefie on Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:01 am

If it's decided to have promotion / relegation in future competitions then it will be CL6 that determines the placings, not CL5.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Qwert on Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:12 am

Keefie wrote:If it's decided to have promotion / relegation in future competitions then it will be CL6 that determines the placings, not CL5.


why not? Do you forget that CL5 qualifications groups are decided by CL4 final standing.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Keefie on Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:56 am

Qwert wrote:
Keefie wrote:If it's decided to have promotion / relegation in future competitions then it will be CL6 that determines the placings, not CL5.


why not? Do you forget that CL5 qualifications groups are decided by CL4 final standing.


and CL6 qualification groups may be decided by CL5 final standing.
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby Qwert on Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:15 pm

Keefie wrote:
Qwert wrote:
Keefie wrote:If it's decided to have promotion / relegation in future competitions then it will be CL6 that determines the placings, not CL5.


why not? Do you forget that CL5 qualifications groups are decided by CL4 final standing.


and CL6 qualification groups may be decided by CL5 final standing.


ofcourse ,if format stay same,,
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby BoganGod on Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:11 am

Can see you folks have put a lot of thought into discussing these hypotheticals. Well done, and thank you. Would like to point out / draw attention to a possible flaw in logic or procedural fairness. The idea of having different tiers is good and has been done in RL often, can work well.

A premier league of 18clans with 2 15clan divisions below that would likely work well for organising cup ties and other procedural concerns.

Am wondering about the fairness aspect. Gives a lot of advantage to long established clans. Who often are scared to face lower ranked clans in non officially sanctioned events. You won't catch most top 3 clans having the balls to face a new clan like Atlantis for example.

With the clan scene not staying static from year to year, clans come and go. Personal change dramatically look at legion. Clans get re-birthed as different often amalgamated entities. Examples of recent time - Atlantis, ACE, FaD, and the list could go on.

Would it be possible to use the strength of a clan's playing roster as a factor in ranking and seeding. Say clan X has only been around for 3months, has completed and won 1 war, and is in two more wars. Has not faced a top clan(cause they are chicken of the playing roster), would it be possible to look at the average score, average number of games played, team medals, tournament wins etc. Maybe even look at how many clan wars members have won in previous clans? You could then use those figures to compare clan X with Clan Y. Clan Y has completed 3clan wars in three months and lost all 3, is currently in 2more clan wars likely to be losses.

Am I asking to much? Answers in english please, or with a translation from qwertish please :) :lol:
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Re: Adjustments to league format for CL6?

Postby benga on Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:38 am

I am getting tired of changing the format every year.

It's time to vote for perma next 5 years format:
a) give chance to all
b) promotion/relegation style

Don't think CL ever had b option, so don't see why this needs to be changed.

So if we go with a, there shouldn't be more then 2 stages, we had that this year so move on.

Basically we just need to change some aesthetics:
-adding new settings?
-possibillities to use maps as we wish?
-etc.

lets keep it simple...
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