TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:30 am

Lindax wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:Allowing ordinary members to vote CDs just leaves room for clan bias.


There's 'bias' in any option. And I'd have clan leaders vote in the CDF. A voting system creates an accountability that is not existent now.


Ok Viper. Not trying to be an ass. Please explain how that creates accountability (and to whom) and why that is important (and to whom).

Lx


Are you unfamiliar with the concept that elections create an inherent accountability? And accountability is hugely important for many reasons. A process that fully respects and embraces all clans equally will help to save hours of conflicts in the future. Perhaps, you are unfamiliar with some of the more recent issues; but many people were left with a sense that there is an us and them reality in the clan world.

Maybe, many of us are hesitant to discuss it, but a rogue CD(s) can do a lot of damage. And we need a process in which we as clans can collectively choose the most desirable CDs. And I say that with all due respect to those who are serving as CDs now.

greenoaks wrote:what if they are not suitable?
if they need to agree to the nomination what is stopping them from applying with the current method?


What if a CD applicant is not suitable under the current method of selection? The selection process will never stamp out that concern. However, if you have regular elections, clans will tend to find optimal CD's imo.

VioIet wrote:What about a half/half decision?
ate someone who they think will be good in the role, and maybe the three people with the most nominations can be selected for review. Of course, those voted, must accept the nomination to indicate that they actually would be interesting and willing to take on the responsibilities and duties of the position. Then the current cd team interviews and ends up selecting one of those three.
Members can nomin


Then you still have a situation in which CDs are controlling who is in power to a significant degree. I believe that the clan leaders are a very informed group and are capable of choosing the best or otherwise worthy people.
Last edited by ViperOverLord on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby greenoaks on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:00 am

ViperOverLord wrote:
greenoaks wrote:what if they are not suitable?
if they need to agree to the nomination what is stopping them from applying with the current method?

What if a CD is not suitable under the current method of selection? The selection process will never stamp out that concern. However, if you have regular elections, clans will tend to find optimal CD's imo.

i only asked because the proposal was 1 IS selected of the 3 highest voted, whereas none of them might suitable due to many reasons such as existing conflicts with other CDs or management.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:04 am

greenoaks wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:
greenoaks wrote:what if they are not suitable?
if they need to agree to the nomination what is stopping them from applying with the current method?

What if a CD is not suitable under the current method of selection? The selection process will never stamp out that concern. However, if you have regular elections, clans will tend to find optimal CD's imo.

i only asked because the proposal was 1 IS selected of the 3 highest voted, whereas none of them might suitable due to many reasons such as existing conflicts with other CDs or management.


Ah. Well if management is admin, then I think they shall have the final say on CDs no matter what the process.

As for current CDs not thinking he/she can work with an elected CD__ Well let me first say that that would hopefully not be a common issue. Regardless, if a CD does not feel like he can work with a certain elected person than he/she should resign. I think it's as simple as that.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby greenoaks on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:58 am

ViperOverLord wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:
greenoaks wrote:what if they are not suitable?
if they need to agree to the nomination what is stopping them from applying with the current method?

What if a CD is not suitable under the current method of selection? The selection process will never stamp out that concern. However, if you have regular elections, clans will tend to find optimal CD's imo.

i only asked because the proposal was 1 IS selected of the 3 highest voted, whereas none of them might suitable due to many reasons such as existing conflicts with other CDs or management.


Ah. Well if management is admin, then I think they shall have the final say on CDs no matter what the process.

As for current CDs not thinking he/she can work with an elected CD__ Well let me first say that that would hopefully not be a common issue. Regardless, if a CD does not feel like he can work with a certain elected person than he/she should resign. I think it's as simple as that.

so voting for someone who has a problem with the current CD's would allow you to overthrow the regime. i really can't see admin putting in place a system that would allow that.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby Qwert on Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:32 am

From this discussion,i came to conclusion that Old CD search for new CD who will be suitable for them, not for clan community?

what are actual role of new CD are?

>>Additionally, candidates should have a cool-head and calm demeanor, and be eager to help take the Clans Dept. to the next level.<<
huh, this its so interesting requirements, i wonder why its this important ?

>>For example, We also need individuals who can provide a different perspective,so even being relatively inexperienced in the clan arena could be an asset if you're interested in helping new Clans prosper.<<

Well still not clear what are new CD can do, and how much he will have free hands to make some new changes?
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby chapcrap on Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:30 am

Where do I vote at? I may have to leave work early to get the polls on time.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby Lindax on Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:23 am

ViperOverLord wrote:
Lindax wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:Allowing ordinary members to vote CDs just leaves room for clan bias.


There's 'bias' in any option. And I'd have clan leaders vote in the CDF. A voting system creates an accountability that is not existent now.


Ok Viper. Not trying to be an ass. Please explain how that creates accountability (and to whom) and why that is important (and to whom).

Lx


Are you unfamiliar with the concept that elections create an inherent accountability? And accountability is hugely important for many reasons. A process that fully respects and embraces all clans equally will help to save hours of conflicts in the future. Perhaps, you are unfamiliar with some of the more recent issues; but many people were left with a sense that there is an us and them reality in the clan world.

If you mean with accountability that somebody runs the risk of not being elected, yeah. I don't call that accountability though. An elected CD would still be accountable to the team leader and admin.

As for the rest: You're talking perfect world. In the real world (or clan world) I don't see electing CDs will help save hours of conflict, nor change the "us and them reality".

ViperOverLord wrote:Maybe, many of us are hesitant to discuss it, but a rogue CD(s) can do a lot of damage. And we need a process in which we as clans can collectively choose the most desirable CDs. And I say that with all due respect to those who are serving as CDs now.


An elected CD can still do a lot of damage. And whomever gets elected will only be the choice of a majority, which means there will still be plenty of clan members and leaders who don't agree with the choice.

Besides, why would you want the most desirable person? Shouldn't it be the most capable person? Elections will likely result in the most likable person being chosen, not the most capable.

People don't volunteer for a CD position because they like to see their name in blue (or whatever that horrible color is). They do it because they think they can make the clan world a better place. And even the best CD will never make everybody happy, unless we go back to your perfect world.

Take us, for example. You may be a perfect clan leader (who knows), nevertheless I disagree with practically everything you post. Luckily we both have the option of expressing our opinions.

Lx
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:17 pm

greenoaks wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:
greenoaks wrote:what if they are not suitable?
if they need to agree to the nomination what is stopping them from applying with the current method?

What if a CD is not suitable under the current method of selection? The selection process will never stamp out that concern. However, if you have regular elections, clans will tend to find optimal CD's imo.

i only asked because the proposal was 1 IS selected of the 3 highest voted, whereas none of them might suitable due to many reasons such as existing conflicts with other CDs or management.


Ah. Well if management is admin, then I think they shall have the final say on CDs no matter what the process.

As for current CDs not thinking he/she can work with an elected CD__ Well let me first say that that would hopefully not be a common issue. Regardless, if a CD does not feel like he can work with a certain elected person than he/she should resign. I think it's as simple as that.

so voting for someone who has a problem with the current CD's would allow you to overthrow the regime. i really can't see admin putting in place a system that would allow that.


Overthrow the regime? LOL. The clan world picks their leaders. If they want the same leaders then fine. If they want new leaders then great. The point is that the clan system is intricate and CDs have a lot of power and the clans need to have more control regarding the direction of it, instead of an elite group of people with indefinite stays of power.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby Leehar on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:27 pm

ViperOverLord wrote:instead of an elite group of people


I think it was asked earlier, but what exactly defines us as elite Viper?
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:34 pm

Lindax wrote:An elected CD can still do a lot of damage. And whomever gets elected will only be the choice of a majority, which means there will still be plenty of clan members and leaders who don't agree with the choice.


Yes. An elected CD can do a lot of damage. And if the clan world sees it that way; then they'll vote someone new to reverse the damage. What happens when a current CD does a lot of damage? Nothing. THAT'S ACCOUNTABILITY VS. NOT ACCOUNTABILITY.

Lindax wrote:Besides, why would you want the most desirable person? Shouldn't it be the most capable person? Elections will likely result in the most likable person being chosen, not the most capable.


The most desireable person is the most capable person (or at least capable) in the eyes of the clan world. We have a very astute community. But again, if a CD goes off the rails, then there will be a system in place to get a new CD, rather than endlessly be stuck with a person who is doing damage.

Lindax wrote:People don't volunteer for a CD position because they like to see their name in blue (or whatever that horrible color is). They do it because they think they can make the clan world a better place.


Candidates' desires do not change because you have elections. Although, if they did; it would be for the best imo. Because it would not be about who is in with who. It would be about who gets along with everybody and is seen as a very innovative person by the whole community.

Lindax wrote:And even the best CD will never make everybody happy, unless we go back to your perfect world.


You're logic is fallacious and condescending. I've never said that an election makes everything perfect or that everyone will be happy. People may be disenchanted at times. But, at least they're going to have say in who is representing them. Right now, clans have no say in who is representing them. Some clan leaders may have great visions for the clan world. But, if they're not in the loop, then tough beans.

Lindax wrote:Take us, for example. You may be a perfect clan leader (who knows), nevertheless I disagree with practically everything you post. Luckily we both have the option of expressing our opinions.


The concept of being able to express opinions is an argument for not having elections? Actually, I can tell you that there are some clan leaders who have stopped or tempered their opinions because they are tired of howling at the wind. A vote at least gives them some direct real say.
Last edited by ViperOverLord on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:45 pm

Leehar wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:instead of an elite group of people


I think it was asked earlier, but what exactly defines us as elite Viper?


Instead of digging in the dirt, which is what you presumably want to do with this question; how about you actually give your position on elections?
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby VioIet on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:55 pm

Lindax wrote:
Take us, for example. You may be a perfect clan leader (who knows), nevertheless I disagree with practically everything you post. Luckily we both have the option of expressing our opinions.

Lx


I agree with this. I'll use eddie as an example, who we know can be quite a controversial figure at times. Yet, I've heard from more than one person that he is a darn good clan leader. It's also true that you can be unpopular socially, yet be a very good clan mod and vice versa.

And very true that you can never please everybody at the same time. There were some in the past that I felt were great mods, but others didn't think so, and in reverse- some I didn't like that others liked.

My half/half proposal can also work the opposite way.

Members apply for the position and the current CD teams picks three candidates that they think are most worthy. And then of the three, the clan members vote and elect someone.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:06 pm

VioIet wrote:My half/half proposal can also work the opposite way.

Members apply for the position and the current CD teams picks three candidates that they think are most worthy. And then of the three, the clan members vote and elect someone.


I think a half/half proposal is better than what we have now. But, I think the clan world is more than capable of fully picking who they want as their CDs throughout the entire process. I see no need to take any of that power out of the community, who are the ones being affected. If there's an abundance of candidates, then you can have a preliminary election to narrow the field and then have a final election.

Also, besides the fact that having the CDs narrow the field (erroneously) presupposes that they can pick the final candidates better; it allows them to power broker and leaves the door open for some of the same ole insider politics. The clan community needs to fully own the CD selection process.
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