[CC4] RA (29) vs ATL (32) - Final 11/15

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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (26)

Postby shaneback on Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:46 am

Das Schloss Game 13371053 is replaced by Game 13434017

The OP still shows the wrong game.
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (26)

Postby Genoke on Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:24 am

betiko wrote:Yes tell me more! :)

Otherwise, 24-26, this is really close! I m asking it seriously this time, can we get an insider s forecast? What happened with violet s misscount, does the actual score reflects a penalty?

there wasn't a penalty, but we had to choose between one of the games with 'janomike' to be remade. I've decided to remake the das schloss game (unfortunately without any labels, but pm'd cheme about it, without reaction, so i think it's ok)
The new game number has already been mentioned here in the war thread @ 11 oct
Genoke wrote:Game 13371053 is replaced by Game 13434017

maybe we can add this information in the first post?

though hasn't been changed in the first post yet
that game is still undecided.
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (26)

Postby betiko on Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:31 pm

So why is the tie breaker forfeited and the win given to atlantis? I thought that covered the miscount thingy. So the miscount = tiebreaker forfait + das schloss replayed?
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (26)

Postby Genoke on Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:17 pm

betiko wrote:So why is the tie breaker forfeited and the win given to atlantis? I thought that covered the miscount thingy. So the miscount = das schloss replayed?

tiebreaker forfait = read first page...

advice: read all the pages, then you don't have to ask questions anymore. :mrgreen:
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (26)

Postby betiko on Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:21 pm

Genoke wrote:
betiko wrote:So why is the tie breaker forfeited and the win given to atlantis? I thought that covered the miscount thingy. So the miscount = das schloss replayed?

tiebreaker forfait = read first page...

advice: read all the pages, then you don't have to ask questions anymore. :mrgreen:


Op says tie breaker forfait and win given to atlantis. It also gives a das schloss link to a different game (from what i understand, this one was the one chosen to be replayed by atlantis because of the miscount). So no, it s not clear, sounds like there were 2 penalties. You guys might have discussed this stuff in the ncc4 thread that i don t bother reading, as it s not the war i m interested in. I haven t seen explanation in this thread.
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (26)

Postby shaneback on Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:48 pm

betiko wrote:
Genoke wrote:
betiko wrote:So why is the tie breaker forfeited and the win given to atlantis? I thought that covered the miscount thingy. So the miscount = das schloss replayed?

tiebreaker forfait = read first page...

advice: read all the pages, then you don't have to ask questions anymore. :mrgreen:


Op says tie breaker forfait and win given to atlantis. It also gives a das schloss link to a different game (from what i understand, this one was the one chosen to be replayed by atlantis because of the miscount). So no, it s not clear, sounds like there were 2 penalties. You guys might have discussed this stuff in the ncc4 thread that i don t bother reading, as it s not the war i m interested in. I haven t seen explanation in this thread.


What you said is correct, there were 2 penalties.
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (27)

Postby Teflon Kris on Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:34 am

VioIet wrote:

Trips
Das Schloss- Remake Pending


The remake Game 13434017 is in round 7, not quite what anyone would call 'pending' !
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (27)

Postby stotzi on Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:48 am

I also would appreciate an update of the game link in Vio's first post, so that neutral followers (or the people who do the statistics for their clans ;) ) will follow the correct games.

Nevertheless it is my honest opinion that a dumb, but not sooooo grave mistake - sorry Vio ;) - of one person leads to a double penalty concerning the whole clan is extreme. It contradicts the pupose of the site: to be entertainment and fun.
I, personally, would have given ATL an option: To freely choose a game with Janomike (who had too much games) after a certain number of days, e.g. 7 (so that one can see how the games are developping), and to demand a rematch for it.

I want to point out that it is absolutely necessary to penalize violations of the rules! Nobody of RA would have considered a rematch of ATLs choice unfair! I also want to point out that this is not meant as a verbal attack against ATL, who have the right to bring up violations of rules of their opponents. It have been the judges who have been overreacting in my opinion.
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (27)

Postby Donelladan on Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:08 am

You know you didnt lose the tie-breaker because Janomike was in too many games?
You know you received two penalties because you "broke" two different rules ?

You lost the tie breaker because you, RA, had to forfeit one game to ATL because Violet create this topic too late.

Sry to intervene in a topic I have nothing to do, just trying to give you some explanations as far as I understand what happened here.
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (27)

Postby stotzi on Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:51 am

Ah, thank you. No, I appreciate your input. I do not understand, and I don't want to bury in old wounds, why had it to be VioIet to create this topic? Why then gave the judge such a big advantage to Atlantis? Have we been the home team in this fight, responsible like a soccer club for his football field? When giving 1 game as forfeit to the other team, this makes for a difference of +2 between the two teams, therefore the punishment has not only been a penalty for us (which is adequate, if we have been the home team or something like that, responsible for the topic), but also a reward for the other team. I do not see the action which would have earned Atlantis such a reward in this case, but I see my information seems to be limited. Would it not have been more just if 1 game would be subtracted from our score (without adding 1 to Atlantis' score)?

This is interesting. I do not think that many of my clanmates know as much as you said in your former message, Donelladan. Generally naturally two violations must be followed by two penalties, adequate and fair penalties of course.
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (27)

Postby Qwert on Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:23 am

generaly,im against any forfeith.
Fair penalty will be take one home game from RA, and give right that ATL can make +1 home game.
To many in past chalenges are ruined by forfeith.

>>Stotzi
It have been the judges who have been overreacting in my opinion.<<
and who are judges in this challenge?
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (27)

Postby shaneback on Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:02 am

stotzi wrote:Ah, thank you. No, I appreciate your input. I do not understand, and I don't want to bury in old wounds, why had it to be VioIet to create this topic? Why then gave the judge such a big advantage to Atlantis? Have we been the home team in this fight, responsible like a soccer club for his football field? When giving 1 game as forfeit to the other team, this makes for a difference of +2 between the two teams, therefore the punishment has not only been a penalty for us (which is adequate, if we have been the home team or something like that, responsible for the topic), but also a reward for the other team. I do not see the action which would have earned Atlantis such a reward in this case, but I see my information seems to be limited. Would it not have been more just if 1 game would be subtracted from our score (without adding 1 to Atlantis' score)?

This is interesting. I do not think that many of my clanmates know as much as you said in your former message, Donelladan. Generally naturally two violations must be followed by two penalties, adequate and fair penalties of course.


The higher seeded clan is responsible for the thread. Its in the rules under organization, as is the rule for playing too many games

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=441&t=189591#p4143944

show: Organization


The discussion about the forfeit starts here. it was decided by the CD's

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=441&t=189591&start=150#p4266289

chemefreak wrote:RA has not set up its thread against ATL for the RD of 16 despite being told to do so. RA has been issued a 1 game forfeit.
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (26)

Postby VioIet on Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:42 pm

Genoke wrote:]
there wasn't a penalty, but we had to choose between one of the games with 'janomike' to be remade. I've decided to remake the das schloss game (unfortunately without any labels, but pm'd cheme about it, without reaction, so I think it's ok)


I'm not assuming that anything is okay with chemefreak if he hasn't said so. RA has already been penalized with the forfeit because of a lack of response from chemefreak (long story), and making assumptions based on a non-response. That is not going to happen again. Chemefreak stated that I would need to make the remake game with the proper labels. ATL made a normal, standard trips game for the remake. and chemefreak needs to say if this is allowable for the remake.

I think the fair thing is to let the unlabeled rematch replace the original game, but again, chemefreak needs to say something. I am sure that he will for the sake of time, but again, some response would be nice.

That is why it says re-make pending.

Also, I wouldn't necessarily consider a re-make as a penalty, as it could benefit or hurt both sides. For example, if ATL wins the original, but loses the rematch, then the win goes to RA.

That happened with RA vs ID in Clan League. I miscount, they choose a game to replay. They won the original, but lost the rematch. Therefore, point for RA. We offered them to just call it a draw, but they thought it was fair for RA to keep the win.

If that happened in this instance, I would definitely not be offering ATL a draw.


Also, there was no date given to start the thread. There was a date to start the war (which was August 25), but none for the thread. RA sent out their home games invites on Aug 25, and ATL sent theirs on Aug 26. ATL was not late- this was due to time zone and chemefreak granting an extra day because of the whole thread mishap.


I have no issue whatsoever with the rematch. ATL knows the risk involved. The forfeit, on the other hand, was complete BS.

I am someone who likes and needs to hear something from the other parties involved, before just starting the thread. I don't think many people start a thread without hearing from the CD or opposing clan, or agreeing to terms, dates, etc., etc. Also, a thread has nothing to do with RA's skill on the battlefield. ATL on the other hand, gets a win for absolutely nothing. They didn't do anything to earn it, and I feel a win should always be earned. If they were a stand up clan, they wouldn't have accepted it. But if Atlantis wants that cheap win, then they have it.


Forfeit or not, this will be a very close war, with, I think, only a 1-2 game difference in the final score.
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (26)

Postby Teflon Kris on Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:36 am

VioIet wrote:Trips
Das Schloss- Remake Pending for Game 13371053 & Game 13434017

Chemefreak stated that I would need to make the remake game with the proper labels. ATL made a normal, standard trips game for the remake. and chemefreak needs to say if this is allowable for the remake.

I think the fair thing is to let the unlabeled rematch replace the original game, but again, chemefreak needs to say something. I am sure that he will for the sake of time, but again, some response would be nice.

That is why it says re-make pending.



Over to chemefreak for confirmation.

:-)
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Re: [CC4] RA (25) vs ATL (27)

Postby Qwert on Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:17 am

>>>>Chemefreak stated that I would need to make the remake game with the proper labels<<<

WTF! are you serious? cheme demand game with proper label? I dont belive in this.
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (26)

Postby Genoke on Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:21 pm

Teflon Kris wrote:
VioIet wrote:Trips
Das Schloss- Remake Pending for Game 13371053 & Game 13434017

Chemefreak stated that I would need to make the remake game with the proper labels. ATL made a normal, standard trips game for the remake. and chemefreak needs to say if this is allowable for the remake.

I think the fair thing is to let the unlabeled rematch replace the original game, but again, chemefreak needs to say something. I am sure that he will for the sake of time, but again, some response would be nice.

That is why it says re-make pending.



Over to chemefreak for confirmation.

:-)

weird that i didn't knew anything about chemefreak statement, while i was the one who sent him the pm about the remake game without label.
to be sure i've sent another pm to Chemefreak and VioIet, asking him to give a clear answer in this thread.
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (26)

Postby chemefreak on Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:04 pm

Genoke wrote:
Teflon Kris wrote:
VioIet wrote:Trips
Das Schloss- Remake Pending for Game 13371053 & Game 13434017

Chemefreak stated that I would need to make the remake game with the proper labels. ATL made a normal, standard trips game for the remake. and chemefreak needs to say if this is allowable for the remake.

I think the fair thing is to let the unlabeled rematch replace the original game, but again, chemefreak needs to say something. I am sure that he will for the sake of time, but again, some response would be nice.

That is why it says re-make pending.



Over to chemefreak for confirmation.

:-)

weird that i didn't knew anything about chemefreak statement, while i was the one who sent him the pm about the remake game without label.
to be sure i've sent another pm to Chemefreak and VioIet, asking him to give a clear answer in this thread.


The remake is fine. I'm not sure why it wasn't labeled, but there is no sense in delaying anything. Thanks.
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (26)

Postby VioIet on Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:33 pm

Genoke wrote:weird that i didn't knew anything about chemefreak statement, while i was the one who sent him the pm about the remake game without label.
to be sure i've sent another pm to Chemefreak and VioIet, asking him to give a clear answer in this thread.


How do you not know, when chemefreak sent us both the following pm:

chemefreak wrote:Genoke & Vioiet:

Due to a violation of the maximum game requirement for a player in CCup4, Atlantis has 24 hours to choose a game from Round 3 that involves Janomike and declare it void. The chosen game shall be remade by the home team with the exact settings and players, except without the offending player. This game should be made and joined as soon as possible to avoid any unnecessary delay. Thanks.

The CD Team


I hope chemefreak doesn't mind me copying and pasting that. He said that the home team should make the re-game, but I didn't get a chance to remake it because ATL made it first. I would've created it in the correct section with labels. I think ATL just made it quickly, and forgot to make it in the correct tourney section.


Thanks for the clarification chemefreak.


Qwert wrote:>>>>Chemefreak stated that I would need to make the remake game with the proper labels<<<

WTF! are you serious? cheme demand game with proper label? I dont belive in this.


Lol, I understand your frustration Qwert. I truly do. He approved this for the sake of time, which I understand.
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (26)

Postby Genoke on Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:58 pm

VioIet wrote:
Genoke wrote:weird that i didn't knew anything about chemefreak statement, while i was the one who sent him the pm about the remake game without label.
to be sure i've sent another pm to Chemefreak and VioIet, asking him to give a clear answer in this thread.


How do you not know, when chemefreak sent us both the following pm:

chemefreak wrote:Genoke & Vioiet:

Due to a violation of the maximum game requirement for a player in CCup4, Atlantis has 24 hours to choose a game from Round 3 that involves Janomike and declare it void. The chosen game shall be remade by the home team with the exact settings and players, except without the offending player. This game should be made and joined as soon as possible to avoid any unnecessary delay. Thanks.

The CD Team


I hope chemefreak doesn't mind me copying and pasting that. He said that the home team should make the re-game, but I didn't get a chance to remake it because ATL made it first. I would've created it in the correct section with labels. I think ATL just made it quickly, and forgot to make it in the correct tourney section.


Thanks for the clarification chemefreak.

your first quote....i was talking about a pm i sent chemefreak after i've made the game.

your second quote....Chemefreak was talking about the home team...Das schloss was made by Atlantis as one of their home games in the 3rd batch, so Atlantis is the home team there, no?
It's not because you're the clan who runs the war thread, makes you're the home team. The clan with the higher rank needs to make the thread. Since we're still not officially ranked....RA gets that 'privilege'.
Both clans make home games and join away games. No special home clan is my opinion, but maybe i'm the only one who looks at it this way.

hint for chemefreak: to avoid different perspectives, maybe best to write down the clan name to be sure. :D
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (26)

Postby chemefreak on Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:36 pm

chemefreak wrote:Genoke & Vioiet:

Due to a violation of the maximum game requirement for a player in CCup4, Atlantis has 24 hours to choose a game from Round 3 that involves Janomike and declare it void. The chosen game shall be remade by the home team with the exact settings and players, except without the offending player. This game should be made and joined as soon as possible to avoid any unnecessary delay. Thanks.

The CD Team


I'm not sure how it could be any clearer without knowing which game was selected.

Also, the database has included the remade game since it started.
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (26)

Postby VioIet on Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:03 am

Genoke wrote:your second quote....Chemefreak was talking about the home team...Das schloss was made by Atlantis as one of their home games in the 3rd batch, so Atlantis is the home team there, no?
It's not because you're the clan who runs the war thread, makes you're the home team. The clan with the higher rank needs to make the thread. Since we're still not officially ranked....RA gets that 'privilege'.
Both clans make home games and join away games. No special home clan is my opinion, but maybe i'm the only one who looks at it this way.

hint for chemefreak: to avoid different perspectives, maybe best to write down the clan name to be sure. :D


Oops, my mistake there. :oops: By home team, I thought he meant the clan who made the thread/hosted the challenge. At that time, no game had been selected yet, so I wasn't thinking about the home team in whatever game would be selected- I was thinking home team overall. It doesn't seem to make sense now, but for some reason at the time, I just read it as "home team (RA) or better yet, Violet, needs to make re-make. I just somehow read it that way :P

And no, no home team advantage or anything like that, lol.

Maybe if it was worded, "the home team in the game chosen needs to remake the game," or something like that.
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (26)

Postby betiko on Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:53 am

ok, here's a new little forecast:


Feudal Epic- Game 13372554 undecided
Poison Rome- Game 13372555 RA
Conquer Rome- Game 13372579 ATL
WWII Europe- Game 13372559 RA
Eurasia- Game 13372566 ATL
First Nations Americas- Game 13372569RA
Das Schloss- Game 13434017 ATL
Conquer Man- Game 13371066 ATL
Atlantis- Game 13371070RA

31-30 or 32-29 for atlantis. Given that the first das schloss was going to RA and that the tie breaker will never happen, we can safely say that a real nailbitting finish on the last game will unfortunately not happen for all wannabe cheerleaders. Could ve been fun with that feudal epic dubs deciding the war too bad. Looks like ATL got this! didn't really follow the das schloss log, it's the only one with fog among the atlantis upcomming wins in my forecast but i doubt RA has a huge stack to make a break, also most of the RA wins in my forecasts are advantages more than clear wins.
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (26)

Postby Genoke on Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:40 am

betiko wrote:Das Schloss- Game 13434017 ATL

Looks like ATL got this! didn't really follow the das schloss log, it's the only one with fog among the atlantis upcomming wins in my forecast but i doubt RA has a huge stack to make a break, also most of the RA wins in my forecasts are advantages more than clear wins.

Actually they had a stack of 52 troops ready! :-$
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (26)

Postby betiko on Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:58 am

Genoke wrote:
betiko wrote:Das Schloss- Game 13434017 ATL

Looks like ATL got this! didn't really follow the das schloss log, it's the only one with fog among the atlantis upcomming wins in my forecast but i doubt RA has a huge stack to make a break, also most of the RA wins in my forecasts are advantages more than clear wins.

Actually they had a stack of 52 troops ready! :-$


Yeah and you re going to make me believe that this game isn t a sure win for you guys? You re cleaning up and that s your victory point.
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Re: [CC4] RA (24) vs ATL (26)

Postby BoganGod on Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:56 pm

betiko wrote:
Genoke wrote:
betiko wrote:Das Schloss- Game 13434017 ATL

Looks like ATL got this! didn't really follow the das schloss log, it's the only one with fog among the atlantis upcomming wins in my forecast but i doubt RA has a huge stack to make a break, also most of the RA wins in my forecasts are advantages more than clear wins.

Actually they had a stack of 52 troops ready! :-$


Yeah and you re going to make me believe that this game isn t a sure win for you guys? You re cleaning up and that s your victory point.


Not over till nosurviors sings. Not counting points until war is over.
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