[CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- TOFU wins!

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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby WPBRJ on Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:34 pm

Chuuuuck wrote:First, I would like to say that limiting the number of clans isn't really my opinion. My opinion is irrelevant, I suggested it to accommodate those that complain about playing year around. I understand the concept of a "play in round." For those of you that have been here a long time would know that anything over 16 was considered the "play in round" in the first two cups. My idea was for that to be the same. As Bruce pointed out, we are not done with CC2. It takes a long time to finish all of these wars. The clans who are repeatedly in the final 4 or so are never getting a break. I also suggested limiting it because if we expand it to another play in round, then the entire tournament will last even longer. Eventually I feel the tournament needs to be capped somewhere, otherwise it'll turn into a 2 year event which would be entirely too long in Conquer Club life terms.

Foxglove wrote:I think a break is nice :)

i think the best argument for limiting the number of clans for the event is the duration it would take to have 5 or 6 rounds instead of 4 (or whatever we have now). You're totally right, chuuuuck, that a Conqueror's Cup that lasted two years (or more!) would be far too long.


if top clan want a break they can skip a year its that simple there should be no cap to accommodate top clans we can implement round limits to shorten games if needed there are other things we can do as well. only the top 2 clan in the final have the right to say they need a break and i am sorry i do not feel sorry for a clan that's in the final and they feel they they want a break so we should not let in lower rank clans, this is the very reason CC does not take competitive clan seriously. if we can get a play in round going by may 1st we can start the full rounds around by mid June

This also may be a mute point. At quick glance I see 38 teams on the FD400. Surely not all of them have 2 completed wars of 40 challenges, do they? I also wouldn't imagine they'd all sign up. So we may only have 28ish signup. Anyone care to check these numbers?

all clans on the fd400 have 2 wars in there are actually a few more about 4 or 5 i think that have 2 wars that just are not ranked yet i think Gunn would have the exact number chem has that info also.

p.s. My orinigal statement about starting the first Conqueror's Cup was to give EVERY clan a chance to fight and prove they are the best, regardless of status (but still using a 2 war rule to make sure the clans will stick to their commitment).

I do still agree with that, only reason I would consider denying anyone so far down now is the logistics of completing so many wars.
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!

Postby Bruceswar on Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:07 pm

Chuuuuck wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:Ugh let me just state that 32 clans will not likely be enough. We will need likely more than that. I do not think limiting clans is a good idea. I do not think this is something that is up for discussion. Everybody should be allowed to play if they so choose.


I know I already commented on why, but it is ironic you are the one taking this stance Bruce. In the past, you were one of the ones spearheading how there were too many games and KoRT never gets a break, etc. Now KoRT is in the finals and I suggest something that help gets you a break and you argue against it.



While I must look out for KORT I must also look out for the clan world as a whole. While KORT would likely love a break... we are just 1 clan of many. The vote of many out weight the vote of one. With that said, I think about 45 clans would qualify if all signed up. I have a feeling the numbers will be about 38 signing up. Just a wild guess. That would put us 6 over 32... Those clans could play a 20 game set to decide who moves on. The others could get started to get going asap. So we would be in round 1 and the play ins at the same time. Keep this moving ASAP.
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby denthefrog on Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:57 am

to accomodate every clans, cups could overlap but give for example the semifinalist a bye in first round and finalist a bye for second round? all depend on how long it drag on?
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!

Postby benga on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:10 am

Bruceswar wrote:
Chuuuuck wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:Ugh let me just state that 32 clans will not likely be enough. We will need likely more than that. I do not think limiting clans is a good idea. I do not think this is something that is up for discussion. Everybody should be allowed to play if they so choose.


I know I already commented on why, but it is ironic you are the one taking this stance Bruce. In the past, you were one of the ones spearheading how there were too many games and KoRT never gets a break, etc. Now KoRT is in the finals and I suggest something that help gets you a break and you argue against it.



While I must look out for KORT I must also look out for the clan world as a whole. While KORT would likely love a break... we are just 1 clan of many. The vote of many out weight the vote of one. With that said, I think about 45 clans would qualify if all signed up. I have a feeling the numbers will be about 38 signing up. Just a wild guess. That would put us 6 over 32... Those clans could play a 20 game set to decide who moves on. The others could get started to get going asap. So we would be in round 1 and the play ins at the same time. Keep this moving ASAP.



No to 20 games war, CC consists of full wars. (40 min games)

denthefrog wrote:to accomodate every clans, cups could overlap but give for example the semifinalist a bye in first round and finalist a bye for second round? all depend on how long it drag on?


No as of round of 32 clans all should participate.

You guys all say that the time is of essence here,
but most clans here are for long period of time (most are longer then 1 year).

Most of your remarks would make sense if there was one CC every year,
but with current setup this is not the case.

Only thing you can reduce is game load per round to minimum 40 games,
below 40 games makes no sense, CL is for small batches of games, CC is full wars.
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby Bruceswar on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:39 am

You are missing the point I made Benga.. the play in would be just that. A short play in so we can get started. Everybody has a chance in the play in. Well those playing in it. Round of 16 or 32 would be 40 games as it has always been. The only clans getting byes will be the ones needed to make it work out evenly.
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby freakns on Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:46 am

Chuuuuck wrote:First, I would like to say that limiting the number of clans isn't really my opinion. My opinion is irrelevant, I suggested it to accommodate those that complain about playing year around. I understand the concept of a "play in round." For those of you that have been here a long time would know that anything over 16 was considered the "play in round" in the first two cups. My idea was for that to be the same. As Bruce pointed out, we are not done with CC2. It takes a long time to finish all of these wars. The clans who are repeatedly in the final 4 or so are never getting a break. I also suggested limiting it because if we expand it to another play in round, then the entire tournament will last even longer. Eventually I feel the tournament needs to be capped somewhere, otherwise it'll turn into a 2 year event which would be entirely too long in Conquer Club life terms.

This also may be a mute point. At quick glance I see 38 teams on the FD400. Surely not all of them have 2 completed wars of 40 challenges, do they? I also wouldn't imagine they'd all sign up. So we may only have 28ish signup. Anyone care to check these numbers?

p.s. My orinigal statement about starting the first Conqueror's Cup was to give EVERY clan a chance to fight and prove they are the best, regardless of status (but still using a 2 war rule to make sure the clans will stick to their commitment).

I do still agree with that, only reason I would consider denying anyone so far down now is the logistics of completing so many wars.

you say top clans are without break... and you might be right, but let me ask you this. how much time did TSM and KORT took between semis and finals of CC2? so the top clans were the one dragging this thing to oblivion, and yet youd like to punish lesser clans because of that(and i say punish, cause lets be real, conquer cup has become most important clan competition)...
but OK, lets say top clans need a break, and lets be real, top 8 clans will not lose in first round, no way... so lets calculate this a bit. lets say we have 40 clans participating. you can give 16 clans 1st round bye, and have 24 clans battle for 12 more spots. so after first round, youd have 28 clans left. then you give semifinalist from last clan war another bye, and 24 teams would battle, leaving you with 16 teams in round 3. lets say one 40 games clan war would take 2 months to finish it, top 16 clans would have 2 months break, 4 out of those 16 would have 4 months break, which should be more then enough to take a break and finish other clan activities like CC2 and CL4! and you would have 4 rounds left to finish CC, which should take about 8 months(if finalists again dont take 6 months to prepare for war...)

so its more then doable. top clans would have time to finish all the events plus have some kind of break, and lesser clans would have chance to participate. you just need to take all the signings, then do some math which would satisfied all the participants ;)
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby Dako on Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:56 am

Giving 2 byes doesn't seem fair to me.

Also, we can consider making 2 separate cups if we are stressed in numbers. Lets say top 20 clans in 1st cup (last 8 clans battle for 4 last places) and another cup with all the rest. It will make the cup shorter, it will also help lesser clans to actually win any challenges and move up the ladder. So if somebody around #15-20 clans loses in the first round - they might be overrun by clans from the second cup. And then those clan will be able to participate in CCup-1 next time.

What do you think?
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby Bruceswar on Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:59 am

I am in favor of 1 cup with all clans in it. Time will go quick and only a few clans have to worry about it dragging on. We will just seed clans from 1 to whatever. Fill out the bracket as best as we can. That would be what I say.
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby benga on Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:36 am

Bruceswar wrote:You are missing the point I made Benga.. the play in would be just that. A short play in so we can get started. Everybody has a chance in the play in. Well those playing in it. Round of 16 or 32 would be 40 games as it has always been. The only clans getting byes will be the ones needed to make it work out evenly.


For 40 clans:
PLAYIN ROUND - 16 clans for 8 places
ROUND OF 32 - all clans participate

Why would those 16 clans play just 20 games?

The point of all CC is to have full wars, also with 40 games in play-in round, there would be a break for those from upper tier.

Also lower ranked clans play their games at faster pace then those higher ranked.

Bruceswar wrote:I am in favor of 1 cup with all clans in it. Time will go quick and only a few clans have to worry about it dragging on. We will just seed clans from 1 to whatever. Fill out the bracket as best as we can. That would be what I say.


Agree.
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby freakns on Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:48 am

Dako wrote:Giving 2 byes doesn't seem fair to me.

Also, we can consider making 2 separate cups if we are stressed in numbers. Lets say top 20 clans in 1st cup (last 8 clans battle for 4 last places) and another cup with all the rest. It will make the cup shorter, it will also help lesser clans to actually win any challenges and move up the ladder. So if somebody around #15-20 clans loses in the first round - they might be overrun by clans from the second cup. And then those clan will be able to participate in CCup-1 next time.

What do you think?

i dont like the idea of having 2 separate CCups(not that i would mind at all 2 c cups in different situation, lol). i actually want to have a chance to battle against top tier clans(although, others might have different wishes).
so i agree with Bruce on this one... get all clans in one system, work out brackets so they seem fair for everyone, and then start the battles... and if top clans dont take too much time between rounds, CC3 would be finished in less then 12 months.
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby Bruceswar on Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:58 am

In the past we have run the play in round with 20 games. I think it worked nicely.
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby niMic on Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:04 am

Makes no sense to me to exclude clans from the Cup, even if it means it will take longer to execute it. I also don't like the idea of having two (or more) separate Cups. The idea of the Cup is to have an ultimate benchmark to see which is the top clan. IMO that means that every clan that wants to has to be able to participate.

However, I don't see why we couldn't do shorter (like the suggested 20) "play in" games for the additional clans.
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby benga on Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:14 am

Bruceswar wrote:In the past we have run the play in round with 20 games. I think it worked nicely.


In CC2 play-in round was full 40 games war, so maybe it was like that in CC1,
but CC2 worked just fine.
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby Bruceswar on Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:21 am

We also only had less than 32 clans. We are talking possible 45 clans.
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby benga on Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:49 am

Bruceswar wrote:We also only had less than 32 clans. We are talking possible 45 clans.


Going back and forth, eh...

Anyway my point of view is so:
-every clan should have the same conditions when entering the Cup
-only 1 Cup for all
-every round consists of wars (no skirmishes)
-if we open sign-ups now we can end signing up by April 1st and start round 1 April 8th
-round 1 would involve low part of rankings, so higher will have a brake
-the speed on which 1st rounds were finishing was much faster then later rounds
-also from later rounds clans were given more of free hands with schedule, so most of you trying to balance something should start at their end not others

This should be, at least on paper, fair-for-all competition.

In reality there are few top clans that will have no problem, until quarters/semis.

But the thing is, the level of play is increasing and the difference between clans is shrinking,
so the question here is, are you looking in future or trying to hold on to your old beliefs?
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby Bruceswar on Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:12 am

I am looking out for what is best for the clan world. My own clan has nothing to do with it. The later rounds always drag on due to the holidays. With that said we will see what chuuuck thinks.
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby MichelSableheart on Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:44 am

Definately would like to see all clans participate in a single cup.

No clan should be playing in games for CC2 and CC3 simultaneously, because this may have a negative effect on their gameplay. Play in's and first round byes are a possible solution for this. I have no problems with guaranteeing the finalists a spot in last 16 if necessary to avoid this overlap.

The schedule should be such that the cup can be finished in a year. This schedule should be strictly kept, to avoid CC3 causing problems for CC4.
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby Dako on Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:35 am

I will be very surprised if we figure everything out and end sign-ups by April 1st. I think we will take at least 1 more week discussing everything out, then we will make schedules and rules (3-5 more days) and then 2 more weeks for sing-ups. So I think we can expect CCup to start in May only.
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby freakns on Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:09 am

Dako wrote:I will be very surprised if we figure everything out and end sign-ups by April 1st. I think we will take at least 1 more week discussing everything out, then we will make schedules and rules (3-5 more days) and then 2 more weeks for sing-ups. So I think we can expect CCup to start in May only.

which is fine, but im guessing july and august would be problematic(most likely second round), cause ppl will start going on holidays and will ask to have second round start in september. then beofre third round starts, we will have talks about new year and christmas holidays(in which case they will not ask you or me anything, even though our christmas is in january :D), and we will be lucky to finish CC3 before end of 2013 :D

because of this, i think we should follow some kind of schedule. im guessing 2 months is more then enough for 40 games to finish.(hell, we are active for 3 months now, and we will finish our second clan war, 41 and 61 games, no more then 2 weeks from now... and in the same time we were dealing with CL and have half of the clan freemiums). so set the schedule. first round starts May 1st. second round(32 teams overall) starts july 1ts. third round(16 teams) starts semptember 1st. when we enter round 4, and have 8 clans remaining, they can drag a bit if they like(and god knows they will drag it to infinity... )... and while those teams finishing CC3, clans can enter CC4 at the beginning of 2013.
we do the format where remaining of clan world(all clans minus top 8 from CC3) will participate to get top 8 teams. after those, lets call them qualifications, are over we will have 8 "winners" and 8 teams from CC3 who will decide who is the winner of CC4... ofc, after CC3 and first part of CC4 are over, we can have some kind of break(1-2 months) before continuing...
this way, we could have all clans participating in future, and having chance to be competitive instead of being blown out by top clans in first round. in same time, top clans would still have to win 4 challenges in a row to win a (perfect) C Cup, and have some vacation between clan events.
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby Qwert on Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:22 am

i think that we stay with good old system,like we play in previous years.
So if we have 34 signed teams,30 get 1 round pass,and 4 lower clan play qualification for 1 round.
Also maybe its better for all rounds to be 40 games chalenges.
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby Chuuuuck on Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:07 am

Dako wrote:Giving 2 byes doesn't seem fair to me.

Also, we can consider making 2 separate cups if we are stressed in numbers. Lets say top 20 clans in 1st cup (last 8 clans battle for 4 last places) and another cup with all the rest. It will make the cup shorter, it will also help lesser clans to actually win any challenges and move up the ladder. So if somebody around #15-20 clans loses in the first round - they might be overrun by clans from the second cup. And then those clan will be able to participate in CCup-1 next time.

What do you think?


I haven't read all posts yet, I wanted to stop here to comment.

Starting the Conqueror's Cup, the overall goal was to never split it. The league has always split and everyone complained a new good clan didn't get a chance. I vowed the Cup would always give the "little guy" the chance to play one of the elite and prove their worth and move on just as much as anyone else.
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby Chuuuuck on Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:24 am

Ok guys, I have read everything. The overall system is going to stay the way it is. That will never change. That is what makes this tournament so great and appeal to others. I have thought about limiting clans, it seems everyone is against it. I agree with that logic. We will not limit clans after everyone passes the 2 completed clan war rule by the end of sign ups.

I will start editing first post and setting it up today or tomorrow. But for now, sign ups are starting now and will conclude at the end of March (before midnight on April 1). This gives everyone close to 2 weeks to decide to participate.

Time is an important factor to keep this moving. I am guessing we will start the first round in mid-April. We will know more once we get an idea of who is signing up. But if there is a play in round, it will somehow be reduced in time compared to the other wars because the entire tournament is held up by the play-in games. Either they will be 20 game wars, or possibly 40 game wars with only 1 week in between the 2 rounds of 20 (or maybe even start all 40 games at once). I know the clans at this level typically have players who play a lot more games so this might be reasonable. Regardless, we need to make a decision that gets that rounds moving and quickly over.

Now, are there any other rules from CC2 that anyone would like to discuss? Like I said, I will start getting a list of rules up today/tomorrow. For the most part though, I intend it to look similar to CC2 unless we discuss it here first.
Last edited by Chuuuuck on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby Bruceswar on Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:47 am

KORT is talking over it now. Put is as a maybe. (I am sure we will be in, but gotta talk with the clan mates.)
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby slickstick on Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:02 am

TLW are in!!!!
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Re: [CC3] Third Annual Conqueror's Cup!- Moved 2 Main Clan F

Postby Rodion on Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:22 am

Draw a bracket of 64 clans. Seed all clans. The bracket is obviously not going to fill, but then you'll know which teams get a bye (#1 gets a bye because there is no #64, #2 because there is no #63, #3 because of no #62 ...) and which ones don't (#32 vs. #33, #31 vs. #34, #30 vs. #35 ...).

"Extra" byes should not be needed because, let's face it, #1 vs. #32 is hardly a real challenge (same goes for any round of 32 game featuring a top 8 clan or so), so those clans that routinely reach the top 4 are scheduled to get easy matchups that should not be exhausting by default.
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