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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby chapcrap on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:36 pm

jj3044 wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
BGtheBrain wrote:Not a very fair shake to the others, but I dont know what else you can do about it.

There is a fair way to all, which needs just a little good will and honesty from organizer and from AoC and EMP to be done in reality. EMP and AOC may play in old roster the remaining 32 games (is it too much to ask?) just to determine placement which they would got in their group. then their vacated places fill with the best next placed clans from any group. for example, if AOC finish first in the group, it means they earned place in Division 1, so then give it to the best placed #3 their place. if they finish 3rd in the group, then they earned position in Division 2, in which case their position can be taken by the best placed #5 clan. And you have the most fair solution for everyone in given circumstances.

josko.ri wrote:Scenario 1: Just finish normal their group matches. After that, for example if both AOC and EMP qualify in top 2 places, then award 2 the best 3rd placed clans of all 6 groups to enter in Division 1 in their place. Also award 2 the best 5th placed clans to enter to Division 2. Why that scenario is better than your decision? With your decision, some lower clans who had luck just to be draw into group with AOC/EMP wil now get golden ticket to Division 1. it is a big favor to them and huge unfavor to lower clans from other groups who need to beat one of top clans in order to enter Division 1.

I'll just respond to this post quick... it actually would have been both EMP and AOC's preference to not drop out, but we had to weigh our options here. If either/both of us had continued in the league and had active EMP or AOC clan games going, we would not be able to enter the Conquorer's Cup as we still had active games going. To us, participating in the CC was more important.


You can't enter it anyway unless you finish two wars in the next two weeks...
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby IcePack on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:38 pm

Doesn't CCup require one war under the new clan as well?
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby hyposquasher on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:54 am

chapcrap wrote:
jj3044 wrote:I'll just respond to this post quick... it actually would have been both EMP and AOC's preference to not drop out, but we had to weigh our options here. If either/both of us had continued in the league and had active EMP or AOC clan games going, we would not be able to enter the Conquorer's Cup as we still had active games going. To us, participating in the CC was more important.


You can't enter it anyway unless you finish two wars in the next two weeks...



IcePack wrote:Doesn't CCup require one war under the new clan as well?



We aren't a new clan. This is a merger of two existing clans that have all of the necessary credentials to participate in CC4.

Unfortunately there is no clean way on conquerclub to merge two clans cleanly. In the eyes of CL5 there was no clean way for the merged clan to continue on in CL5 in place of either of the separate clans, so we were forced to drop out.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby BGtheBrain on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:56 am

If you arent new, I think one of the clans shouldve stayed in CL5. I dont think this was the clans fault themselves because Id imagine they wouldve wanted to stay in it.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby hyposquasher on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:57 am

BGtheBrain wrote:If you arent new, I think one of the clans shouldve stayed in CL5. I dont think this was the clans fault themselves because Id imagine they wouldve wanted to stay in it.


Sorry BG, I had just edited my last post with a line that addresses this. Unfortunately the CD's running CL5 would not permit us to stay in the tourney. You are right, we would have loved to!
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby IcePack on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:58 am

hyposquasher wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
jj3044 wrote:I'll just respond to this post quick... it actually would have been both EMP and AOC's preference to not drop out, but we had to weigh our options here. If either/both of us had continued in the league and had active EMP or AOC clan games going, we would not be able to enter the Conquorer's Cup as we still had active games going. To us, participating in the CC was more important.


You can't enter it anyway unless you finish two wars in the next two weeks...



IcePack wrote:Doesn't CCup require one war under the new clan as well?



We aren't a new clan. This is a merger of two existing clans that have all of the necessary credentials to participate in CC4.

Unfortunately there is no clean way on conquerclub to merge two clans cleanly. In the eyes of CL5 there was no clean way for the merged clan to continue on in CL5 in place of either of the separate clans, so we were forced to drop out.


So are you AOC or EMP? Technically you'd have to be under one of the old banners (renamed sure) to enter as an existing clan.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby hyposquasher on Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:46 am

IcePack wrote:
hyposquasher wrote:

We aren't a new clan. This is a merger of two existing clans that have all of the necessary credentials to participate in CC4.

Unfortunately there is no clean way on conquerclub to merge two clans cleanly. In the eyes of CL5 there was no clean way for the merged clan to continue on in CL5 in place of either of the separate clans, so we were forced to drop out.


So are you AOC or EMP? Technically you'd have to be under one of the old banners (renamed sure) to enter as an existing clan.


This isn't the appropriate thread for this conversation and I don't wish to be a part of a hijacking! :P :)

My original intention was to point out that this a merger, not a new clan; and to explain why we had to remove ourselves from CL5.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby chapcrap on Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:07 am

hyposquasher wrote:
IcePack wrote:
hyposquasher wrote:

We aren't a new clan. This is a merger of two existing clans that have all of the necessary credentials to participate in CC4.

Unfortunately there is no clean way on conquerclub to merge two clans cleanly. In the eyes of CL5 there was no clean way for the merged clan to continue on in CL5 in place of either of the separate clans, so we were forced to drop out.


So are you AOC or EMP? Technically you'd have to be under one of the old banners (renamed sure) to enter as an existing clan.


This isn't the appropriate thread for this conversation and I don't wish to be a part of a hijacking! :P :)

My original intention was to point out that this a merger, not a new clan; and to explain why we had to remove ourselves from CL5.

Ok, well, that's not what jetsetwilly said.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby Crazyirishman on Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:44 pm

josko.ri wrote:
IcePack wrote:
angola wrote:We were headed toward second or third place in our division anyway. I think it's a tad unfair to act as though Fallen and LOW were guaranteed to finish below us.


Yeah, AOC is a great and respected clan but there was a good chance of the above happening.
Auto deciding that FALL and LOW would somehow fail to have a chance @ #1 is pretty poor choice based on results so far.

What about clan who will end 5th will now get golden ticket to Division 2? I used example how it is unfair someone who ends 3rd gets entrance to Div1 but the same unfairmess is someone 5th enter Div2


Okay Im going to try my hardest not to sound elitist in this post...

Honestly josko , how many fucks do you really give about a clan finishing 5th in a division and getting bumped up to 4th? Im guessing the number is pretty damn close to zero. I feel like your making this point just for the sake of argument right now.

I know you're a numbers and stats person so I think its safe to say you check the f400 somewhat frequently at the least. But in terms of quality of play there is not a giant difference between many of the clans ranked 24-36 in this competition and many can play each other equally. Many of the clans in the range are also part of the 'let's not take ourselves too seriously, clans are for fun" school of thought and frankly don't give a shit about how they're ranked. Because of this, how many people in the clans of the fringe of DIv2/Div3 will be beating on war drums and calling for a reparation of the injustice of the 'golden ticket' that was dealt to somebody else? Maybe 2 or 3, but majority will think "hey extraneous circumstances beyond our control effected the original draw, and a couple people got bumped up...shit happens"

If this situation were to happen in which two clans ranked 22nd and 23rd dropped out, would you have even brought this up and started talking about the 'golden ticket' arbitrary clan ranked 26th received to get into division 2? Or are you only mentioning this because it slightly affects your CL5 experience? The competition will play out naturally and fine despite regardless of where a couple different clan get seeded.(also the phrase golden ticket is slightly elitist in the manner in which you use it because it implies that no merit was involved).
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby Qwert on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:55 pm

I think that all these conversation need to be in some other topic, not here.
AOC and EMP are withdraw from CL5, and i make decision, and now we can stop discussion who are going nowhere.

Don't force me to use hammer here.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby josko.ri on Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:41 am

jj3044 wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
BGtheBrain wrote:Not a very fair shake to the others, but I dont know what else you can do about it.

There is a fair way to all, which needs just a little good will and honesty from organizer and from AoC and EMP to be done in reality. EMP and AOC may play in old roster the remaining 32 games (is it too much to ask?) just to determine placement which they would got in their group. then their vacated places fill with the best next placed clans from any group. for example, if AOC finish first in the group, it means they earned place in Division 1, so then give it to the best placed #3 their place. if they finish 3rd in the group, then they earned position in Division 2, in which case their position can be taken by the best placed #5 clan. And you have the most fair solution for everyone in given circumstances.

josko.ri wrote:Scenario 1: Just finish normal their group matches. After that, for example if both AOC and EMP qualify in top 2 places, then award 2 the best 3rd placed clans of all 6 groups to enter in Division 1 in their place. Also award 2 the best 5th placed clans to enter to Division 2. Why that scenario is better than your decision? With your decision, some lower clans who had luck just to be draw into group with AOC/EMP wil now get golden ticket to Division 1. it is a big favor to them and huge unfavor to lower clans from other groups who need to beat one of top clans in order to enter Division 1.

I'll just respond to this post quick... it actually would have been both EMP and AOC's preference to not drop out, but we had to weigh our options here. If either/both of us had continued in the league and had active EMP or AOC clan games going, we would not be able to enter the Conquorer's Cup as we still had active games going. To us, participating in the CC was more important.


It is possible to both continue on CL5 and participate in CC4, if only a little good will and decisions for total benefits of both competitions is done. How?

You finish Qualification Phase with old names, to save total regularity of that phase, so no clan would be penalized by your withdraw. Right now, FALL is huge penalized over AOK for example, because they won vs AoC 6-2 and AOK lost vs AoC 2-6 and now both results deserved in matches will be void. How is possible for both to continue, and to still be fair to everyone?

Finish qualification phase, just 32 more matches under old name. Then:

1. If BOTH EMP and AOC will be placed in top 2 places which leads to Division 1, then give the new clan place in Division 1, and give the one empty place to the best ranked #3 clan. There is no any favor made to AMP/AoC on this way, because it is harder to earn Divison 1 place twice than to do it once, like every other clan need to do.

2. If one of the clans, or both of them, finish on #3 or #4 place in Qualification group, then give the new clan place in Division 2.

2.a If one of the clans be in top 2, and other clans be in 3-4 place in their group, then it will be 1 empty slots in Division 1 because 11 clans would earn their place, and 12th place where higher of thiose clans were would be empty. Give it to the best #3 placed clan from all groups.

2.b If both clans ends lower than #2, then Division 1 is already filled by 12 clans placed in top 2 places.

I do not know who is against this idea? Would this idea be ok to AoC/EMP? I see reasons for not, because they will probably not be interested to play in Division 2. There comes another problem, if this is the case, is it then message to all top clans, if you somehow fail to qualify for top Division, should you be withdraw or merge or do anything third in order to not play in Division 2? But hey, if you are not capable to be in top 2 places then live with your result and take consequences for it by playing in Div 2.

Is it tournament organizer against this idea? If so, he did huge misjudgement about integrity of the tournament. Withdrawing of top clans opens a lot of golden ticket for lower clans from their group, especially because draw was seeded. It is huge advantage over clans from other groups and will cause huge imbalance in quality of clans which will come to top Division.

Are CDs against this idea? If so, then we come to situation when one formality (one clan rule) is going over integrity of the major competition in Clan scene. Is it really so much more important that players do not play at the same time for so called "2 different clans" (for "old" clan in CL5 qualification phase which can a little overlap with "new" clan in CC4 round 1) than it is important huge quality imbalance in later Divisions and huge real results imbalance in current Divisions (some clans already won vs AoC/EMP while some already lost, and now all results will be void) which will occur in that case?
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby Arya on Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:10 am

As qwert said, please continue discussion about AOC/EMP somewhere else.

In regards to the AOC/EMP merger and CL5 we decided (a decision neither Leehar nor jetsetwilly was a part of), to follow the rules instead of making an exception just because these happen to be very good clans. When they choose to create a new clan instead of the members of one joining the other, they will be treated as a new clan and cannot continue playing CL5. If they wish to continue playing CL5, the members of one clan will need to join the other. It is their choice.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby chapcrap on Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:04 am

Arya wrote:As qwert said, please continue discussion about AOC/EMP somewhere else.

In regards to the AOC/EMP merger and CL5 we decided (a decision neither Leehar nor jetsetwilly was a part of), to follow the rules instead of making an exception just because these happen to be very good clans. When they choose to create a new clan instead of the members of one joining the other, they will be treated as a new clan and cannot continue playing CL5. If they wish to continue playing CL5, the members of one clan will need to join the other. It is their choice.

This is a CL5 discussion and I like his idea. There is no rule broken. The players are cup tied for one phase only. It's actually very much in the rules.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby eddie2 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:38 pm

chapcrap wrote:
Arya wrote:As qwert said, please continue discussion about AOC/EMP somewhere else.

In regards to the AOC/EMP merger and CL5 we decided (a decision neither Leehar nor jetsetwilly was a part of), to follow the rules instead of making an exception just because these happen to be very good clans. When they choose to create a new clan instead of the members of one joining the other, they will be treated as a new clan and cannot continue playing CL5. If they wish to continue playing CL5, the members of one clan will need to join the other. It is their choice.

This is a CL5 discussion and I like his idea. There is no rule broken. The players are cup tied for one phase only. It's actually very much in the rules.


if they merged into aoc or empire clan then yes it is in the rules. They have not done that they have dropped the aoc and empire clan (from what i believe into user groups.) So they are now a new clan by there own choice which means they did not enter this event and did not qualify to play in it.....

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=D> =D> =D> =D>
to the clan mods on this result i think it is the most correct thing you guys/girls have done in the last 2 weeks and hope this is you turning over a new leaf... i will copy this post into the ccup4 thread to carry this convo further.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby chapcrap on Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:25 pm

chemefreak wrote:All -

Do not fret regarding medal eligibility. We will appropriately consider all participants for medals, especially in light of the changes that are happening. No need to submit phantom lists of players and games. It will all work out in the end. I promise. Thanks!

Nick

Can we get a number answer? It would really help plan for things ahead of time, instead of hoping people might get medals. At the beginning, everyone was to go against 16 other clans and the number was 14 games. Will it be 13 if you lose one clan, 12 if you lose 2 opponents, etc? A number would be great.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby chemefreak on Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:52 pm

chapcrap wrote:
chemefreak wrote:All -

Do not fret regarding medal eligibility. We will appropriately consider all participants for medals, especially in light of the changes that are happening. No need to submit phantom lists of players and games. It will all work out in the end. I promise. Thanks!

Nick

Can we get a number answer? It would really help plan for things ahead of time, instead of hoping people might get medals. At the beginning, everyone was to go against 16 other clans and the number was 14 games. Will it be 13 if you lose one clan, 12 if you lose 2 opponents, etc? A number would be great.


Sure. 14 was a guess by qwert before signups were completed. So under site rules, here is calculation:

1st Round: 25 player spots per match....10 matches = 250....8 matches = 200.
2nd Round: 25 player spots per match....22 matches = 550...20 matches = 500.

So, if you are lucky enough to have a full slate the entire time, here is what you need to do to get a medal...

800 players spots...divided by 1/2....divided by # of players played by your clan (X) =
X= 15....min req 26
X= 20....min req 20
X= 25....min req 16

So, if you are "unlucky" enough to be a 1 less league in the 1st Round and 2nd Round (only would be in the final division)...

700 player spots...divided by 1/2...divided by # of players played by your clan (X) =
X= 15...min req 15
X= 20...min req 17
X= 25...min req 14*

*This is kinda where we came up with the absolute minimum games...so I would try to get your guys 14 spots out of 700-800 if you want them to medal.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby chapcrap on Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:26 am

Ok, so you're saying that it was never 14 to begin with, it's a formula that needs to be used?
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby Crazyirishman on Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:50 am

chapcrap wrote:Ok, so you're saying that it was never 14 to begin with, it's a formula that needs to be used?


It looks like it's [(# of games)/2]/(number of members in clan) if I am not mistaken.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby Leehar on Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:15 am

Crazyirishman wrote:
chapcrap wrote:Ok, so you're saying that it was never 14 to begin with, it's a formula that needs to be used?


It looks like it's [(# of games)/2]/(number of members in clan) if I am not mistaken.

I think it's a logical extension of the [url]http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=438&t=150201][Official] Clan Medals[/url] formula:
Min Games = Total Spots / Players Used * Participation Factor
(With the divided by 2 likely being the participation factor of 50%)

Cheme really is the go-to guy for medals, so I'm sure he can confirm though.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby Qwert on Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:15 am

why every time need to be comlicated, when these can be simple. I dont know what are unknown in medal rules?
-------------------------------------
Player Qualifications for Medals
For these qualification, games from Qualification Round and League Round are combined together.

Each player must have at least 1 win to qualify for a medal.

Each player must play a minimum of 14 games to qualify for a medal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby chapcrap on Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:29 am

No offense, but it's already been established that you don't know the answer, qwert. Just let cheme give the answer.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby Qwert on Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:11 am

f----finished
d----decided

QG1
R5
GR-LEG 3-3
PIG-CF 2-2
DBC-TOFU 1-5------d
R6
DBC-GR 1-4
TOFU-PIG 1-0
CF-LEG 3-4

QG2
R5
TLW-WAR 4-3
MYTH-MB 3-4
R6
LOTZ-TLW 1-6-------d
MB-WAR 1-7------f

QG3
R5
FOED-DYN 4-3
ID-UM8 4-1
SOH-AFOS 2-1
R6
SOH-FOED 3-4
AFOS-ID 4-1
UM8-DYN 2-5-----d

QG4
R5
FALL-VDLL 2-0
LOW-AOK 1-2
R6
RA-FALL 2-2
AOK-VDLL 1-2

QG5
R5
MD-OTP 3-3
TFFS-AQOH 4-2
MM-IA 3-0
R6
MM-MD 3-1
IA-TFFS 2-2
AQOH-OTP 1-4

QG6
R5
TNC-HH 4-2
OSA-DB 3-2
LHDD-KORT 4-3
R6
LHDD-TNC 3-2
KORT-OSA 4-2
DB-HH 3-3
Last edited by Qwert on Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby chemefreak on Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:53 pm

chapcrap wrote:Ok, so you're saying that it was never 14 to begin with, it's a formula that needs to be used?


Actually, what we did was tried to make it simple. So even in a worst case scenario (which is what we now have) 14 games would be a minimum for a clan using a ton of players. So we just set the minimum for all clans, regardless of how many used, at 14. Now we have the worst case scenario, so what I am saying is 14 is the number for all players in all clans no matter what has or will happened. HOWEVER, as most of you know, we often make exceptions for players within 1 or 2 games of the minimum. So everyone should try for 14...which is an extremely low # and shouldn't be an issue for anyone (as its less than 1 game per 8 game set!) If there is a close one at the end, we will be fair with medals. So 14 it is. Thanks.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby Qwert on Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:24 pm

f----finished
d----decided

QG1
R7
GR 0<>3 TOFU
CF 2<>3 DBC
LEG 1<>3 PIG
R8
PIG 2<>3 GR
DBC 2<>1 LEG
TOFU 4<>1 CF

QG2
R7
MB 2<>4 LOTZ
WAR 3<>1 MYTH
R8
MYTH 2<>1 TLW
LOTZ 1<>6 WAR---d

QG3
R7
FOED 2<>4 AFOS
UM8 0<>3 SOH
DYN 3<>0 ID
R8
ID 3<>1 FOED
SOH 3<>3 DYN
AFOS 1<>3 UM8

QG4
R7
AOK 2<>1 RA
VDLL 3<>2 LOW
R8
LOW 1<>0 FALL
RA 0<>0 VDLL

QG5
R7
MD 2<>5 IA------d
AQOH 0<>3 MM
OTP 5<>1 TFFS---d
R8
TFFS 1<>3 MD
MM 1<>1 OTP
IA 3<>0 AQOH

QG6
R7
TNC 2<>4 KORT
DB 4<>1 LHDD
HH 2<>2 OSA
R8
OSA 1<>2 TNC
LHDD 3<>1 HH
KORT 2<>2 DB
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page

Postby Qwert on Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:59 am

28 april will be update tables in all 6 groups.
[mine cc time]
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