[CL5] 1:KORT MVP:josko 2:ID MVP:M Chief 3:AQOH MVP:thelord

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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby freakns on Thu May 30, 2013 7:40 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:Ok Josko, name the 10 active players in TOFU who can commence CL5 which starts next week? Go on, Mr Know-It-All.

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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby BGtheBrain on Thu May 30, 2013 7:41 am

the topic is up in CD&F but no CD has commented.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby shoop76 on Thu May 30, 2013 7:50 am

Would anyone care if it was not TOFU, but one of the lesser clans.

Qwert, I don't understand. Everyone has stated they think premier league should have 12 clans. Still you want to go with 11. You really don't care what others want?
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby josko.ri on Thu May 30, 2013 8:03 am

comic boy wrote:So in summary ;
1) Everybody agrees , including the organiser , that this is purely an internal TOFU affair and the business of nobody else.....except for one person !
2) Everybody agrees , including the organiser , that TOFU have timed their decision to cause the least inconvenience to other Clans.....except for one person !
3) Everybody agrees , including the organiser , that this one person is driven by spite , malice , jealousy and quite probably has some mental health issues....except for one person :lol: :lol:


It seems you learnt public acting skills by CoF, you are also very skilled in turning lie to look like truth. =D>

I pointed real reasons which you try to hide behind scenes, CoF asked me for exact argumentation which players are active, when I gave it then he disappeared without arguments. freakns and BG also pointed out similar opinion like myself, etc, etc.
Thanks for thinking about my mental health, if your opinion is that someone is mental disabled and you laugh about it that only shows what kind of personality are you. =D>
Whenever I think that someone is mental disabled, the last thing I do (and every normal person do) is laughing about him.

TOFU are the most serious troublemakers to clan world ever.
1. Two times withdrawing from competition (ACC1, CL5) like no other clan did.
2. The biggest sitting abuse ever where the whole clan participated actively or passively, because it was proven in the case that CoF was bragging in TOFU forum how he is playing alone vs the whole AFOS Hive team, so others knew very well for his systematic abusing system.
3. They were the loudest in asking for punishment of me for sitting abuse in June 2011. That would not be so weird if only a month later they were not punished for doing exactly the same kind of abuse. In that other case they were surprisingly silent, in contrast to being extremely loud in the same case when they were accusing me.
4. Refusing to replay decisive game vs KORT and advancing by site glitch in CC3. I did not see anyone who is not from TOFU that supported their decision, including official CD's statement written in the thread.
5. False accusing me for sitting abuse at the end of last year. I also did not remember anyone other except TOFU members were saying that it was abusive and deserves punishment.
6. I do not remember any case that someone from some clan were accusing that clan for abuse. That happened guess to who when Chuuuuck pointed how widespread and organized cheating were occurred inside the clan? Enough to show how much are level of mutual respect inside that clan.

They are however smart individuals so with using their good public acting skills they always make themselves looking better and having better reputation, or turning truth around and showing that others are guilty for troubles that they caused.

I hope CDs will realize that they are so far the biggest troublemakers in clan scene and eliminate them from CC4. Here are major reasons for my suggestion:
1. This is their second time withdrawing from competition (no other clan withdrew more than once)
2. All previous clans who withdrew from competitions were AOC/EMP from CL5 and Time from CL3 I think. Correct me if I am wrong. BUT, their reason for withdrawing was turning down their activity, after the withdraw they did not exist anymore. So, this is the first time that someone withdraw not because they are closing their clan but (imagine reason!) because they cannot have 10 active players at every time to play games.

What will be message to the rest of clan world if we just let this go without extra punishment? Who can guarantee that they will not do the same thing in CC4? Situations in CL5 and CC4 are right now the same draw wise, in both competitions they did not yet start their activity in main phase, so withdrawing now is less painful for competition than (possible) withdrawing in later stage of CC4 and awarding bye in quarterfinals or semifinals or allowing second chance to clan who is already eliminated by TOFU.
If CDs decide to do no punishment, that will be great message to the rest of clan world that everyone can do whatever they wish, sign up for whatever they wish, and hey, if it happens that in some part of the competition son of someone is born and he cannot anymore go often to CC, why not withdraw the whole clan? It will be so great for Clan competitions.
Last edited by josko.ri on Thu May 30, 2013 8:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby BGtheBrain on Thu May 30, 2013 8:05 am

shoop76 wrote:Would anyone care if it was not TOFU, but one of the lesser clans.

Qwert, I don't understand. Everyone has stated they think premier league should have 12 clans. Still you want to go with 11. You really don't care what others want?

I have no issues with TOFU, I have an issue with clans dropping an event.

Also as demonstrated with the previous drop outs, qwert is not concerned with what most people want.

This again only proves the pointlessness of a group like CD&F.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby Qwert on Thu May 30, 2013 8:10 am

josko.ri wrote:
comic boy wrote:So in summary ;
1) Everybody agrees , including the organiser , that this is purely an internal TOFU affair and the business of nobody else.....except for one person !
2) Everybody agrees , including the organiser , that TOFU have timed their decision to cause the least inconvenience to other Clans.....except for one person !
3) Everybody agrees , including the organiser , that this one person is driven by spite , malice , jealousy and quite probably has some mental health issues....except for one person :lol: :lol:


It seems you learnt public acting skills by CoF, you are also very skilled in turning lie to look like truth. =D>

I pointed real reasons which you try to hide behind scenes, CoF asked me for exact argumentation which players are active, when I gave it then he disappeared without arguments. freakns and BG also pointed out similar opinion like myself, etc, etc.
Thanks for thinking about my mental health, if your opinion is that someone is mental disabled and you laugh about it that only shows what kind of personality are you. =D>
Whenever I think that someone is mental disabled, the last thing I do (and every normal person do) is laughing about him.

TOFU are the most serious troublemakers to clan world ever.
1. Two times withdrawing from competition (ACC1, CL5) like no other clan did.
2. The biggest sitting abuse ever where the whole clan participated actively or passively, because it was proven in the case that CoF was bragging in TOFU forum how he is playing alone vs the whole AFOS Hive team, so others knew very well for his systematic abusing system.
3. They were the loudest in asking for punishment of me for sitting abuse in June 2011. That would not be so weird if only a month later they were not punished for doing exactly the same kind of abuse. In that other case they were surprisingly silent, in contrast to being extremely loud in the same case when they were accusing me.
4. Refusing to replay decisive game vs KORT and advancing by site glitch in CC3. I did not see anyone who is not from TOFU that supported their decision, including official CD's statement written in the thread.
5. False accusing me for sitting abuse at the end of last year. I also did not remember anyone other except TOFU members were saying that it was abusive and deserves punishment.
6. I do not remember any case that someone from some clan were accusing that clan for abuse. That happened guess to who when Chuuuuck pointed how widespread and organized cheating were occurred inside the clan? Enough to show how much are level of mutual respect inside that clan.

They are however smart individuals so with using their good public acting skills they always make themselves looking better and having better reputation, or turning truth around and showing that others are guilty for troubles that they caused.

I hope CDs will realize that they are so far the biggest troublemakers in clan scene and eliminate them from CC4. Here are major reasons for my suggestion:
1. This is their second time withdrawing from competition (no other clan withdrew more than once)
2. All previous clans who withdrew from competitions were AOC/EMP from CL5 and Time from CL3 I think. Correct me if I am wrong. BUT, their reason for withdrawing was turning down their activity, after the withdraw they did not exist anymore. So, this is the first time that someone withdraw not because they are closing their clan but (imagine reason!) because they cannot have 10 active players at every time to play games.

What will be message to the rest of clan world if we just let this go without extra punishment? Who can guarantee that they will not do the same thing in CC4? Situations in CL5 and CC4 are right now the same draw wise, in both competitions they did not yet start their activity in main phase, so withdrawing now is less painful for competition than (possible) withdrawing in later stage of CC4 and awarding bye in quarterfinals or semifinals or allowing second chance to clan who is already eliminated by TOFU.
If CDs decide to do no punishment, that will be great message to the rest of clan world that everyone can do whatever they wish, sign up for whatever they wish, and hey, if it happens that in some part of the competition son of someone is born and he cannot anymore go often to CC, why not withdraw the whole clan? It will be so great for Clan competitions.


I dont understand what you want to present? If you want to include some punishment for future competition for TOFu, then this its not right place to make complains, here its all ready done- TOFU are removed from CL5 ,and this its most what i can do here.
If you want some punishment for CC4, then you need to go in this topic,and present what you want to present.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby josko.ri on Thu May 30, 2013 8:19 am

qwert wrote:I dont understand what you want to present? If you want to include some punishment for future competition for TOFu, then this its not right place to make complains, here its all ready done- TOFU are removed from CL5 ,and this its most what i can do here.
If you want some punishment for CC4, then you need to go in this topic,and present what you want to present.

You guessed correct what I want to present and I did how did you suggest.
It is interesting how you answer to posts that you consider like off topic, but you ignore posts where so far zero players supported your decision to continue with 11 clans in premier League and many others suggested opposite.
I liked you as an organizer at the beginning because I had opinion that you consider wishes from community, but the way of your handling 2 withdrawing issues convinced me that I was wrong about you.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby Leehar on Thu May 30, 2013 8:25 am

Ok, thanks for all the lively discussion everyone. It's been interesting to read the different perspectives.

I personally was hopeful that Tofu would reconsider withdrawing from the competition, to avoid the inevitable disruptions it has caused, but I do see that they tried to assist by withdrawing now, rather than further down the road when they could no longer compete. I can also see the point of view that it is in bad taste for the #1 Clan to withdraw from the League immediately after winning the CCup and gaining their ranking. However, even if it may not set the best example, it does remain each clans prerogative to choose which competitions they can participate in according to their own situation.
Also, since it seems to be an ongoing issue, I'd like to reiterate to both Josko & Chariot to avoid confronting each other. It is self-evident that they have different perspectives and while they can feel free to share there opinions (and agreeing to disagree), It would be nice to avoid the disparagement that inevitably occurs in engagements between the two. Similarly, others should avoid baiting and flaming to encourage such fractitious displays.


Moving on. One of the alternatives opined for dealing with the withdrawal, was to move a clan up from second division to Premier. That raised the obvious question of which clan & where some considerable complexity came in.
While most divisions have already decided 3/4th, and therefore who moves into the Second League, 3rd, and perhaps 5th, haven't become as clear-cut just yet. So if I'm understanding correctly, it's still undetermined who is 3rd in QG1 (with I think Game Difference still determining it) & giving it to the best overall placed #3 clan is also as yet impossible while it would necessitate a delay to ensure all tables were finalised and the numbers confirmed. Similarly, because there is a mismatch between the number of clans participating in some divisions, it would be exceedingly difficult to ensure comparability between them. And obviously the desirability was such that if one clan had 4 points and the other 8 points from a similar number of games and position in the division, it was better to choose the latter as best placed to advance into the privileged location. The other issue with choosing the clan from QG1, is on whether we should include Tofu's results in the count or not, and what additional effect that may have on the outcome. With Legion also involved in this close contest, there are the inevitable cries of Bias that could occur upon which way the CD decision landed whether there was the involvement of the relevant individual or not.

For all the reasons above, as well as the delay factor on postponing this for a further 2 weeks & still potentially not being able to reach a decision (or a more appropriate one), the difficulty in determining the clan to advance, the length of the competition (close to 3 months) & that perhaps having some bye's in the cut-throat competiveness and high octane action likely to dominate the Premier League may not necessarily be a bad thing, the overhauling of the schedule and the effect it may have on planning for the clans that can only use 1 map throughout the calender - if they now have differing opposition (similar to the extension requested for starting CCup4 after the 2nd draw) & the CDF perhaps not necessarily being interested in rushed votes; the CD's are comfortable with the decision reached by the TO.


I'd also like to reiterate that we appreciate the work Qwert has been doing almost single-handedly & unheralded with CL5. It was a job for 2 people in previous editions, and still didn't run without hitches, while most previous organisers have already retired from the site as the difficulty in running such a competition.
With most of our DD's also resigning from Phase 1 due to their own pressures, he's had to take on a significant load with updating tables & results across all 6 divisions as well as reporting on such incidences for the Dispatch & submitting results for the F400. At the same time he's done an enviable job with Graphics for the divisions and tracking all the probabilities for how things can change and who advances where depending on ongoing games as well. While he may have difficulty conveying himself in English, he has worked hard on CL5, and while he may not have made the best possible decisions (which are rarely possible), he's done a note-worthy job on make adequate decisions to address issues appropriately and which still leaves him with a job he's able & willing to do, which is really all we can ask
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby Dako on Thu May 30, 2013 8:32 am

josko.ri wrote:If CDs decide to do no punishment, that will be great message to the rest of clan world that everyone can do whatever they wish, sign up for whatever they wish, and hey, if it happens that in some part of the competition son of someone is born and he cannot anymore go often to CC, why not withdraw the whole clan? It will be so great for Clan competitions.

If CDs decide to do no punishment, that will be great message to josko.ri that he is not always right. Oh, wait, he will think that CDs are wrong and he is right again. Damn, cannot break from this loop.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby jetsetwilly on Thu May 30, 2013 8:41 am

Leehar wrote:


For all the reasons above, as well as the delay factor on postponing this for a further 2 weeks & still potentially not being able to reach a decision (or a more appropriate one), the difficulty in determining the clan to advance, the length of the competition (close to 3 months) & that perhaps having some bye's in the cut-throat competiveness and high octane action likely to dominate the Premier League may not necessarily be a bad thing, the overhauling of the schedule and the effect it may have on planning for the clans that can only use 1 map throughout the calender & the CDF perhaps not necessarily being interested in rushed votes; the CD's are comfortable with the decision reached by the TO.


And breathe!
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby Crazyirishman on Thu May 30, 2013 8:49 am

This threads no fun anymore...

Hey freakns do you have another dialogue in the archives? We could use it about now.

Also, good post Leehar.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby fishydance on Thu May 30, 2013 9:00 am

Crazyirishman wrote:This threads no fun anymore...


You can say that again! Come on folks, this is a game. A GAME!! If TOFU wants to drop, that's their choice. The world is not coming to an end. Give it a rest, and move on.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby denominator on Thu May 30, 2013 9:59 am

Leehar wrote:I personally was hopeful that Tofu would reconsider withdrawing from the competition, to avoid the inevitable disruptions it has caused, but I do see that they tried to assist by withdrawing now, rather than further down the road when they could no longer compete. I can also see the point of view that it is in bad taste for the #1 Clan to withdraw from the League immediately after winning the CCup and gaining their ranking. However, even if it may not set the best example, it does remain each clans prerogative to choose which competitions they can participate in according to their own situation.


I fully agree here. It is any clan's (or any individual's) choice to withdraw from competition at any point. We see it in sports such as Golf, Tennis, or NASCAR all the time. Usually, in those circumstances, if the player withdraws prior to the main competition they are replaced, but I understand qwert's resistance here.

Leehar wrote:I'd also like to reiterate that we appreciate the work Qwert has been doing almost single-handedly & unheralded with CL5. It was a job for 2 people in previous editions, and still didn't run without hitches, while most previous organisers have already retired from the site as the difficulty in running such a competition.
With most of our DD's also resigning from Phase 1 due to their own pressures, he's had to take on a significant load with updating tables & results across all 6 divisions as well as reporting on such incidences for the Dispatch & submitting results for the F400. At the same time he's done an enviable job with Graphics for the divisions and tracking all the probabilities for how things can change and who advances where depending on ongoing games as well. While he may have difficulty conveying himself in English, he has worked hard on CL5, and while he may not have made the best possible decisions (which are rarely possible), he's done a note-worthy job on make adequate decisions to address issues appropriately and which still leaves him with a job he's able & willing to do, which is really all we can ask


I also get the sense that qwert has already started putting together much of the scheduling and drafting the work for the next round of the competition. A change requiring the movement of two clans (one from 2nd to 1st, one from 3rd to 2nd) would obviously destroy anything he's already put together and require complete redrafting. So while I think the best solution would be to bump the next best clan up, the most practical solution is to run Premier league one clan short.

As for repercussions for TOFU... who cares?! Everyone has seen that they have withdrawn, and everyone will think of it when arranging Clan Wars in the future. I know I would be less likely to commit to a war or a league in which I was directly involved with TOFU due to their history of signing up for too many leagues only to drop out. But I think it's ridiculous to try and force any sort of punishment on them.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby Master Fenrir on Thu May 30, 2013 10:18 am

josko.ri wrote:TOFU are the most serious troublemakers to clan world ever.
1. Two times withdrawing from competition (ACC1, CL5) like no other clan did.
2. The biggest sitting abuse ever where the whole clan participated actively or passively, because it was proven in the case that CoF was bragging in TOFU forum how he is playing alone vs the whole AFOS Hive team, so others knew very well for his systematic abusing system.
3. They were the loudest in asking for punishment of me for sitting abuse in June 2011. That would not be so weird if only a month later they were not punished for doing exactly the same kind of abuse. In that other case they were surprisingly silent, in contrast to being extremely loud in the same case when they were accusing me.
4. Refusing to replay decisive game vs KORT and advancing by site glitch in CC3. I did not see anyone who is not from TOFU that supported their decision, including official CD's statement written in the thread.
5. False accusing me for sitting abuse at the end of last year. I also did not remember anyone other except TOFU members were saying that it was abusive and deserves punishment.
6. I do not remember any case that someone from some clan were accusing that clan for abuse. That happened guess to who when Chuuuuck pointed how widespread and organized cheating were occurred inside the clan? Enough to show how much are level of mutual respect inside that clan.


Josko, can you please stop with the blanket statements? It's unfair and dishonorable. You keep saying that TOFU is the most troublesome clan, therein labeling every member within the clan as such. Couldn't similar exaggerated statements be made about Kort? You were warned for account sitting abuse along with Moon and Rodion, if I remember correctly (I know you believe that was unfair. I'm not saying you're a sitting abuser, I'm making the factual statement that you were warned for it). You admitted GLG into your clan who was a known farmer who continued to farm. Is KORT then a clan full of troublemakers, sitting abusers, and farmers? Or were those just the actions of a few for which the rest of the clan should not be held accountable?

You're seeking a broad punishment of an entire clan for actions/decisions that they might not have anything to do with. You're suggesting that the remaining TOFU players who are not retiring, taking a break, or going on vacation and are simply left without the real life time and CC firepower to handle both clan events be punished. TOFU members have also indicated that the clan will be looking to recruit new members to fill this void. Those new players who have nothing to do with this should then be held to the same punishment and prevented from playing in CC clan events because of this, something they had nothing to do with?

I don't see how that's fair, but it seems to be a pattern of behavior. When jcarter1 mentioned that the C-man game was dragging in the game chat, it seemed to me that you intentionally dragged it our further. I think after that, you waited your turn down to about 20 minutes left before moving. What struck me as odd about that was that JC wasn't even in that game, but you seemed to be punishing those who were. I'll avoid going into detail about the CC1 fiasco, which could be construed as more of the same.

So while I COULD make a broad and exaggerated statement that KORT is a clan that seeks to punish innocent players, I won't. I have too much respect for the players in KORT to do such a thing.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby VioIet on Thu May 30, 2013 2:41 pm

shoop76 wrote:Would anyone care if it was not TOFU, but one of the lesser clans?


I think, for instance, had RA dropped out, no one would really care as much (at least not until the latest addition). But I think we would get at least one or two comments saying, "you really should've stayed in the competition, since you joined it."

I think the reason why TOFU is getting so many bad comments because of sheer disappointment. I think many clans in the Premier League wanted to play against TOFU, and a great opportunity was lost. It's also obvious that less priority was put on Clan League, and CC4/CC5 is a more valuable competition to them. I think that goes without saying.

Nobody would be as disappointed to not be able to face a lesser clan.


While I don't think that TOFU should be "punished," (the social backlash is probably already plenty punishment), I do think that clan organizers should have a rule saying- you join the tournament, you must finish it. But that is up to the organizers, not the individuals clans. If TOFU doesn't want to play anymore- random invites could be sent. They would either play poorly or forfeit those games. But that would only be if there was a rule that they must finish the competition.

But as that rule doesn't exists yet, TOFU didn't technically break a rule, so they can't be punished.

But I think this is for the organizers to decide, and not the individual clans.

I also want to say that I understand both sides. Josko is bring up some really valid points, and those shouldn't be ignored. But I do understand TOFU's side, and I'm not trying to be extra harsh on them. I just want to say this:

I think the most honorable thing to do is stay in the competition, even if you have to play badly. RA does it all the time. Clan League was absolutely disastrous for us last year as we lost several players without warning, due to a variety of reasons. Over 1/3 of the clan left to form a new clan without any warning, and we had to pick up the pieces within just a few months to play Clan League. Then after that, we had more player issues. Our level of play went from pretty darn good (for us) to downright terrible. We had to accept random invites, deal with missed turns and all sorts of things. But we stayed in it and tried our best.

Even this year, we have our hands full with NCC, CC4 and Clan League. We only have 16 active and about half of those receive the brunt of the invites. It is tough, but we won't withdraw after it starts, if we've already signed up.


Of course no one cares, but still. It's the principal.

And I agree that it would be nice if most of these competitions were spread out a bit. I think all clans are overwhelmed right now, not just TOFU or RA.
Bruceswar: I have big news coming out soonish
Violet: oh, what big news?
Bruceswar: I am leaving KORT to go to RA


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