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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby freakns on Thu May 30, 2013 7:40 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:Ok Josko, name the 10 active players in TOFU who can commence CL5 which starts next week? Go on, Mr Know-It-All.

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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby BGtheBrain on Thu May 30, 2013 7:41 am

the topic is up in CD&F but no CD has commented.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby shoop76 on Thu May 30, 2013 7:50 am

Would anyone care if it was not TOFU, but one of the lesser clans.

Qwert, I don't understand. Everyone has stated they think premier league should have 12 clans. Still you want to go with 11. You really don't care what others want?
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby josko.ri on Thu May 30, 2013 8:03 am

comic boy wrote:So in summary ;
1) Everybody agrees , including the organiser , that this is purely an internal TOFU affair and the business of nobody else.....except for one person !
2) Everybody agrees , including the organiser , that TOFU have timed their decision to cause the least inconvenience to other Clans.....except for one person !
3) Everybody agrees , including the organiser , that this one person is driven by spite , malice , jealousy and quite probably has some mental health issues....except for one person :lol: :lol:


It seems you learnt public acting skills by CoF, you are also very skilled in turning lie to look like truth. =D>

I pointed real reasons which you try to hide behind scenes, CoF asked me for exact argumentation which players are active, when I gave it then he disappeared without arguments. freakns and BG also pointed out similar opinion like myself, etc, etc.
Thanks for thinking about my mental health, if your opinion is that someone is mental disabled and you laugh about it that only shows what kind of personality are you. =D>
Whenever I think that someone is mental disabled, the last thing I do (and every normal person do) is laughing about him.

TOFU are the most serious troublemakers to clan world ever.
1. Two times withdrawing from competition (ACC1, CL5) like no other clan did.
2. The biggest sitting abuse ever where the whole clan participated actively or passively, because it was proven in the case that CoF was bragging in TOFU forum how he is playing alone vs the whole AFOS Hive team, so others knew very well for his systematic abusing system.
3. They were the loudest in asking for punishment of me for sitting abuse in June 2011. That would not be so weird if only a month later they were not punished for doing exactly the same kind of abuse. In that other case they were surprisingly silent, in contrast to being extremely loud in the same case when they were accusing me.
4. Refusing to replay decisive game vs KORT and advancing by site glitch in CC3. I did not see anyone who is not from TOFU that supported their decision, including official CD's statement written in the thread.
5. False accusing me for sitting abuse at the end of last year. I also did not remember anyone other except TOFU members were saying that it was abusive and deserves punishment.
6. I do not remember any case that someone from some clan were accusing that clan for abuse. That happened guess to who when Chuuuuck pointed how widespread and organized cheating were occurred inside the clan? Enough to show how much are level of mutual respect inside that clan.

They are however smart individuals so with using their good public acting skills they always make themselves looking better and having better reputation, or turning truth around and showing that others are guilty for troubles that they caused.

I hope CDs will realize that they are so far the biggest troublemakers in clan scene and eliminate them from CC4. Here are major reasons for my suggestion:
1. This is their second time withdrawing from competition (no other clan withdrew more than once)
2. All previous clans who withdrew from competitions were AOC/EMP from CL5 and Time from CL3 I think. Correct me if I am wrong. BUT, their reason for withdrawing was turning down their activity, after the withdraw they did not exist anymore. So, this is the first time that someone withdraw not because they are closing their clan but (imagine reason!) because they cannot have 10 active players at every time to play games.

What will be message to the rest of clan world if we just let this go without extra punishment? Who can guarantee that they will not do the same thing in CC4? Situations in CL5 and CC4 are right now the same draw wise, in both competitions they did not yet start their activity in main phase, so withdrawing now is less painful for competition than (possible) withdrawing in later stage of CC4 and awarding bye in quarterfinals or semifinals or allowing second chance to clan who is already eliminated by TOFU.
If CDs decide to do no punishment, that will be great message to the rest of clan world that everyone can do whatever they wish, sign up for whatever they wish, and hey, if it happens that in some part of the competition son of someone is born and he cannot anymore go often to CC, why not withdraw the whole clan? It will be so great for Clan competitions.
Last edited by josko.ri on Thu May 30, 2013 8:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby BGtheBrain on Thu May 30, 2013 8:05 am

shoop76 wrote:Would anyone care if it was not TOFU, but one of the lesser clans.

Qwert, I don't understand. Everyone has stated they think premier league should have 12 clans. Still you want to go with 11. You really don't care what others want?

I have no issues with TOFU, I have an issue with clans dropping an event.

Also as demonstrated with the previous drop outs, qwert is not concerned with what most people want.

This again only proves the pointlessness of a group like CD&F.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby Qwert on Thu May 30, 2013 8:10 am

josko.ri wrote:
comic boy wrote:So in summary ;
1) Everybody agrees , including the organiser , that this is purely an internal TOFU affair and the business of nobody else.....except for one person !
2) Everybody agrees , including the organiser , that TOFU have timed their decision to cause the least inconvenience to other Clans.....except for one person !
3) Everybody agrees , including the organiser , that this one person is driven by spite , malice , jealousy and quite probably has some mental health issues....except for one person :lol: :lol:


It seems you learnt public acting skills by CoF, you are also very skilled in turning lie to look like truth. =D>

I pointed real reasons which you try to hide behind scenes, CoF asked me for exact argumentation which players are active, when I gave it then he disappeared without arguments. freakns and BG also pointed out similar opinion like myself, etc, etc.
Thanks for thinking about my mental health, if your opinion is that someone is mental disabled and you laugh about it that only shows what kind of personality are you. =D>
Whenever I think that someone is mental disabled, the last thing I do (and every normal person do) is laughing about him.

TOFU are the most serious troublemakers to clan world ever.
1. Two times withdrawing from competition (ACC1, CL5) like no other clan did.
2. The biggest sitting abuse ever where the whole clan participated actively or passively, because it was proven in the case that CoF was bragging in TOFU forum how he is playing alone vs the whole AFOS Hive team, so others knew very well for his systematic abusing system.
3. They were the loudest in asking for punishment of me for sitting abuse in June 2011. That would not be so weird if only a month later they were not punished for doing exactly the same kind of abuse. In that other case they were surprisingly silent, in contrast to being extremely loud in the same case when they were accusing me.
4. Refusing to replay decisive game vs KORT and advancing by site glitch in CC3. I did not see anyone who is not from TOFU that supported their decision, including official CD's statement written in the thread.
5. False accusing me for sitting abuse at the end of last year. I also did not remember anyone other except TOFU members were saying that it was abusive and deserves punishment.
6. I do not remember any case that someone from some clan were accusing that clan for abuse. That happened guess to who when Chuuuuck pointed how widespread and organized cheating were occurred inside the clan? Enough to show how much are level of mutual respect inside that clan.

They are however smart individuals so with using their good public acting skills they always make themselves looking better and having better reputation, or turning truth around and showing that others are guilty for troubles that they caused.

I hope CDs will realize that they are so far the biggest troublemakers in clan scene and eliminate them from CC4. Here are major reasons for my suggestion:
1. This is their second time withdrawing from competition (no other clan withdrew more than once)
2. All previous clans who withdrew from competitions were AOC/EMP from CL5 and Time from CL3 I think. Correct me if I am wrong. BUT, their reason for withdrawing was turning down their activity, after the withdraw they did not exist anymore. So, this is the first time that someone withdraw not because they are closing their clan but (imagine reason!) because they cannot have 10 active players at every time to play games.

What will be message to the rest of clan world if we just let this go without extra punishment? Who can guarantee that they will not do the same thing in CC4? Situations in CL5 and CC4 are right now the same draw wise, in both competitions they did not yet start their activity in main phase, so withdrawing now is less painful for competition than (possible) withdrawing in later stage of CC4 and awarding bye in quarterfinals or semifinals or allowing second chance to clan who is already eliminated by TOFU.
If CDs decide to do no punishment, that will be great message to the rest of clan world that everyone can do whatever they wish, sign up for whatever they wish, and hey, if it happens that in some part of the competition son of someone is born and he cannot anymore go often to CC, why not withdraw the whole clan? It will be so great for Clan competitions.


I dont understand what you want to present? If you want to include some punishment for future competition for TOFu, then this its not right place to make complains, here its all ready done- TOFU are removed from CL5 ,and this its most what i can do here.
If you want some punishment for CC4, then you need to go in this topic,and present what you want to present.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby josko.ri on Thu May 30, 2013 8:19 am

qwert wrote:I dont understand what you want to present? If you want to include some punishment for future competition for TOFu, then this its not right place to make complains, here its all ready done- TOFU are removed from CL5 ,and this its most what i can do here.
If you want some punishment for CC4, then you need to go in this topic,and present what you want to present.

You guessed correct what I want to present and I did how did you suggest.
It is interesting how you answer to posts that you consider like off topic, but you ignore posts where so far zero players supported your decision to continue with 11 clans in premier League and many others suggested opposite.
I liked you as an organizer at the beginning because I had opinion that you consider wishes from community, but the way of your handling 2 withdrawing issues convinced me that I was wrong about you.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby Leehar on Thu May 30, 2013 8:25 am

Ok, thanks for all the lively discussion everyone. It's been interesting to read the different perspectives.

I personally was hopeful that Tofu would reconsider withdrawing from the competition, to avoid the inevitable disruptions it has caused, but I do see that they tried to assist by withdrawing now, rather than further down the road when they could no longer compete. I can also see the point of view that it is in bad taste for the #1 Clan to withdraw from the League immediately after winning the CCup and gaining their ranking. However, even if it may not set the best example, it does remain each clans prerogative to choose which competitions they can participate in according to their own situation.
Also, since it seems to be an ongoing issue, I'd like to reiterate to both Josko & Chariot to avoid confronting each other. It is self-evident that they have different perspectives and while they can feel free to share there opinions (and agreeing to disagree), It would be nice to avoid the disparagement that inevitably occurs in engagements between the two. Similarly, others should avoid baiting and flaming to encourage such fractitious displays.


Moving on. One of the alternatives opined for dealing with the withdrawal, was to move a clan up from second division to Premier. That raised the obvious question of which clan & where some considerable complexity came in.
While most divisions have already decided 3/4th, and therefore who moves into the Second League, 3rd, and perhaps 5th, haven't become as clear-cut just yet. So if I'm understanding correctly, it's still undetermined who is 3rd in QG1 (with I think Game Difference still determining it) & giving it to the best overall placed #3 clan is also as yet impossible while it would necessitate a delay to ensure all tables were finalised and the numbers confirmed. Similarly, because there is a mismatch between the number of clans participating in some divisions, it would be exceedingly difficult to ensure comparability between them. And obviously the desirability was such that if one clan had 4 points and the other 8 points from a similar number of games and position in the division, it was better to choose the latter as best placed to advance into the privileged location. The other issue with choosing the clan from QG1, is on whether we should include Tofu's results in the count or not, and what additional effect that may have on the outcome. With Legion also involved in this close contest, there are the inevitable cries of Bias that could occur upon which way the CD decision landed whether there was the involvement of the relevant individual or not.

For all the reasons above, as well as the delay factor on postponing this for a further 2 weeks & still potentially not being able to reach a decision (or a more appropriate one), the difficulty in determining the clan to advance, the length of the competition (close to 3 months) & that perhaps having some bye's in the cut-throat competiveness and high octane action likely to dominate the Premier League may not necessarily be a bad thing, the overhauling of the schedule and the effect it may have on planning for the clans that can only use 1 map throughout the calender - if they now have differing opposition (similar to the extension requested for starting CCup4 after the 2nd draw) & the CDF perhaps not necessarily being interested in rushed votes; the CD's are comfortable with the decision reached by the TO.


I'd also like to reiterate that we appreciate the work Qwert has been doing almost single-handedly & unheralded with CL5. It was a job for 2 people in previous editions, and still didn't run without hitches, while most previous organisers have already retired from the site as the difficulty in running such a competition.
With most of our DD's also resigning from Phase 1 due to their own pressures, he's had to take on a significant load with updating tables & results across all 6 divisions as well as reporting on such incidences for the Dispatch & submitting results for the F400. At the same time he's done an enviable job with Graphics for the divisions and tracking all the probabilities for how things can change and who advances where depending on ongoing games as well. While he may have difficulty conveying himself in English, he has worked hard on CL5, and while he may not have made the best possible decisions (which are rarely possible), he's done a note-worthy job on make adequate decisions to address issues appropriately and which still leaves him with a job he's able & willing to do, which is really all we can ask
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby Dako on Thu May 30, 2013 8:32 am

josko.ri wrote:If CDs decide to do no punishment, that will be great message to the rest of clan world that everyone can do whatever they wish, sign up for whatever they wish, and hey, if it happens that in some part of the competition son of someone is born and he cannot anymore go often to CC, why not withdraw the whole clan? It will be so great for Clan competitions.

If CDs decide to do no punishment, that will be great message to josko.ri that he is not always right. Oh, wait, he will think that CDs are wrong and he is right again. Damn, cannot break from this loop.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby jetsetwilly on Thu May 30, 2013 8:41 am

Leehar wrote:


For all the reasons above, as well as the delay factor on postponing this for a further 2 weeks & still potentially not being able to reach a decision (or a more appropriate one), the difficulty in determining the clan to advance, the length of the competition (close to 3 months) & that perhaps having some bye's in the cut-throat competiveness and high octane action likely to dominate the Premier League may not necessarily be a bad thing, the overhauling of the schedule and the effect it may have on planning for the clans that can only use 1 map throughout the calender & the CDF perhaps not necessarily being interested in rushed votes; the CD's are comfortable with the decision reached by the TO.


And breathe!
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby Crazyirishman on Thu May 30, 2013 8:49 am

This threads no fun anymore...

Hey freakns do you have another dialogue in the archives? We could use it about now.

Also, good post Leehar.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby fishydance on Thu May 30, 2013 9:00 am

Crazyirishman wrote:This threads no fun anymore...


You can say that again! Come on folks, this is a game. A GAME!! If TOFU wants to drop, that's their choice. The world is not coming to an end. Give it a rest, and move on.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby denominator on Thu May 30, 2013 9:59 am

Leehar wrote:I personally was hopeful that Tofu would reconsider withdrawing from the competition, to avoid the inevitable disruptions it has caused, but I do see that they tried to assist by withdrawing now, rather than further down the road when they could no longer compete. I can also see the point of view that it is in bad taste for the #1 Clan to withdraw from the League immediately after winning the CCup and gaining their ranking. However, even if it may not set the best example, it does remain each clans prerogative to choose which competitions they can participate in according to their own situation.


I fully agree here. It is any clan's (or any individual's) choice to withdraw from competition at any point. We see it in sports such as Golf, Tennis, or NASCAR all the time. Usually, in those circumstances, if the player withdraws prior to the main competition they are replaced, but I understand qwert's resistance here.

Leehar wrote:I'd also like to reiterate that we appreciate the work Qwert has been doing almost single-handedly & unheralded with CL5. It was a job for 2 people in previous editions, and still didn't run without hitches, while most previous organisers have already retired from the site as the difficulty in running such a competition.
With most of our DD's also resigning from Phase 1 due to their own pressures, he's had to take on a significant load with updating tables & results across all 6 divisions as well as reporting on such incidences for the Dispatch & submitting results for the F400. At the same time he's done an enviable job with Graphics for the divisions and tracking all the probabilities for how things can change and who advances where depending on ongoing games as well. While he may have difficulty conveying himself in English, he has worked hard on CL5, and while he may not have made the best possible decisions (which are rarely possible), he's done a note-worthy job on make adequate decisions to address issues appropriately and which still leaves him with a job he's able & willing to do, which is really all we can ask


I also get the sense that qwert has already started putting together much of the scheduling and drafting the work for the next round of the competition. A change requiring the movement of two clans (one from 2nd to 1st, one from 3rd to 2nd) would obviously destroy anything he's already put together and require complete redrafting. So while I think the best solution would be to bump the next best clan up, the most practical solution is to run Premier league one clan short.

As for repercussions for TOFU... who cares?! Everyone has seen that they have withdrawn, and everyone will think of it when arranging Clan Wars in the future. I know I would be less likely to commit to a war or a league in which I was directly involved with TOFU due to their history of signing up for too many leagues only to drop out. But I think it's ridiculous to try and force any sort of punishment on them.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby Master Fenrir on Thu May 30, 2013 10:18 am

josko.ri wrote:TOFU are the most serious troublemakers to clan world ever.
1. Two times withdrawing from competition (ACC1, CL5) like no other clan did.
2. The biggest sitting abuse ever where the whole clan participated actively or passively, because it was proven in the case that CoF was bragging in TOFU forum how he is playing alone vs the whole AFOS Hive team, so others knew very well for his systematic abusing system.
3. They were the loudest in asking for punishment of me for sitting abuse in June 2011. That would not be so weird if only a month later they were not punished for doing exactly the same kind of abuse. In that other case they were surprisingly silent, in contrast to being extremely loud in the same case when they were accusing me.
4. Refusing to replay decisive game vs KORT and advancing by site glitch in CC3. I did not see anyone who is not from TOFU that supported their decision, including official CD's statement written in the thread.
5. False accusing me for sitting abuse at the end of last year. I also did not remember anyone other except TOFU members were saying that it was abusive and deserves punishment.
6. I do not remember any case that someone from some clan were accusing that clan for abuse. That happened guess to who when Chuuuuck pointed how widespread and organized cheating were occurred inside the clan? Enough to show how much are level of mutual respect inside that clan.


Josko, can you please stop with the blanket statements? It's unfair and dishonorable. You keep saying that TOFU is the most troublesome clan, therein labeling every member within the clan as such. Couldn't similar exaggerated statements be made about Kort? You were warned for account sitting abuse along with Moon and Rodion, if I remember correctly (I know you believe that was unfair. I'm not saying you're a sitting abuser, I'm making the factual statement that you were warned for it). You admitted GLG into your clan who was a known farmer who continued to farm. Is KORT then a clan full of troublemakers, sitting abusers, and farmers? Or were those just the actions of a few for which the rest of the clan should not be held accountable?

You're seeking a broad punishment of an entire clan for actions/decisions that they might not have anything to do with. You're suggesting that the remaining TOFU players who are not retiring, taking a break, or going on vacation and are simply left without the real life time and CC firepower to handle both clan events be punished. TOFU members have also indicated that the clan will be looking to recruit new members to fill this void. Those new players who have nothing to do with this should then be held to the same punishment and prevented from playing in CC clan events because of this, something they had nothing to do with?

I don't see how that's fair, but it seems to be a pattern of behavior. When jcarter1 mentioned that the C-man game was dragging in the game chat, it seemed to me that you intentionally dragged it our further. I think after that, you waited your turn down to about 20 minutes left before moving. What struck me as odd about that was that JC wasn't even in that game, but you seemed to be punishing those who were. I'll avoid going into detail about the CC1 fiasco, which could be construed as more of the same.

So while I COULD make a broad and exaggerated statement that KORT is a clan that seeks to punish innocent players, I won't. I have too much respect for the players in KORT to do such a thing.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby VioIet on Thu May 30, 2013 2:41 pm

shoop76 wrote:Would anyone care if it was not TOFU, but one of the lesser clans?


I think, for instance, had RA dropped out, no one would really care as much (at least not until the latest addition). But I think we would get at least one or two comments saying, "you really should've stayed in the competition, since you joined it."

I think the reason why TOFU is getting so many bad comments because of sheer disappointment. I think many clans in the Premier League wanted to play against TOFU, and a great opportunity was lost. It's also obvious that less priority was put on Clan League, and CC4/CC5 is a more valuable competition to them. I think that goes without saying.

Nobody would be as disappointed to not be able to face a lesser clan.


While I don't think that TOFU should be "punished," (the social backlash is probably already plenty punishment), I do think that clan organizers should have a rule saying- you join the tournament, you must finish it. But that is up to the organizers, not the individuals clans. If TOFU doesn't want to play anymore- random invites could be sent. They would either play poorly or forfeit those games. But that would only be if there was a rule that they must finish the competition.

But as that rule doesn't exists yet, TOFU didn't technically break a rule, so they can't be punished.

But I think this is for the organizers to decide, and not the individual clans.

I also want to say that I understand both sides. Josko is bring up some really valid points, and those shouldn't be ignored. But I do understand TOFU's side, and I'm not trying to be extra harsh on them. I just want to say this:

I think the most honorable thing to do is stay in the competition, even if you have to play badly. RA does it all the time. Clan League was absolutely disastrous for us last year as we lost several players without warning, due to a variety of reasons. Over 1/3 of the clan left to form a new clan without any warning, and we had to pick up the pieces within just a few months to play Clan League. Then after that, we had more player issues. Our level of play went from pretty darn good (for us) to downright terrible. We had to accept random invites, deal with missed turns and all sorts of things. But we stayed in it and tried our best.

Even this year, we have our hands full with NCC, CC4 and Clan League. We only have 16 active and about half of those receive the brunt of the invites. It is tough, but we won't withdraw after it starts, if we've already signed up.


Of course no one cares, but still. It's the principal.

And I agree that it would be nice if most of these competitions were spread out a bit. I think all clans are overwhelmed right now, not just TOFU or RA.
Bruceswar: I have big news coming out soonish
Violet: oh, what big news?
Bruceswar: I am leaving KORT to go to RA


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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby Chariot of Fire on Thu May 30, 2013 3:09 pm

I like you Violet, I do, but when you say this:

Josko is bring up some really valid points, and those shouldn't be ignored
(sic)

then some plausibility is lost. Just what 'valid points' has he brought up exactly? All I can make out from his posts is that he believes TOFU are withdrawing to preserve points (since when have we ever done that?) and that we will have 10 active players willing to take-up additional games because his crystal ball tells him so (and he is never wrong).

If a clan feels it cannot meet the obligation of a long-term commitment to comply with a tournament's rules, isn't it better it withdraws at the earliest opportunity? I can't see any argument that could claim otherwise. Josko hasn't provided evidence of why TOFU cannot play in CL5; all he has done is to give his distorted version of why the clan won't compete, as if it's some deliberate tactical decision - which of course cannot be further from the truth. A majority of active TOFU members are actually distraught that they won't be competing in the Premier League of CL5 (where, funnily enough, points would be far easier to win than by remaining in the Random League which, contrary to Josko's theory of points hoarding, we have chosen to do).
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby chapcrap on Thu May 30, 2013 6:37 pm

shoop76 wrote:Would anyone care if it was not TOFU, but one of the lesser clans.

Qwert, I don't understand. Everyone has stated they think premier league should have 12 clans. Still you want to go with 11. You really don't care what others want?

I care whatever clan it is. If there is no accountability, then what's the point? If it looks like we're going to be doing poorly in a competition or have to face a clan we don't want to in a round, we can just drop out. No consequences. Of course, I called earlier that there would be no consequences. How is Leehar supposed to divy out retribution when his own group got none for dropping this same event? I think this needs to change. If you sign up for something you need to finish. If you can't finish, then you need to not be allowed in future events. This was the whole purpose behing making new clans finish wars before they were allowed into bigger competitions. Apparently, that isn't enough anymore and there needs to be some negative reinforcement applied to the back end to make people think about things ahead of time.
Last edited by chapcrap on Thu May 30, 2013 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby ljex on Thu May 30, 2013 6:40 pm

Master Fenrir wrote:
josko.ri wrote:TOFU are the most serious troublemakers to clan world ever.
1. Two times withdrawing from competition (ACC1, CL5) like no other clan did.
2. The biggest sitting abuse ever where the whole clan participated actively or passively, because it was proven in the case that CoF was bragging in TOFU forum how he is playing alone vs the whole AFOS Hive team, so others knew very well for his systematic abusing system.
3. They were the loudest in asking for punishment of me for sitting abuse in June 2011. That would not be so weird if only a month later they were not punished for doing exactly the same kind of abuse. In that other case they were surprisingly silent, in contrast to being extremely loud in the same case when they were accusing me.
4. Refusing to replay decisive game vs KORT and advancing by site glitch in CC3. I did not see anyone who is not from TOFU that supported their decision, including official CD's statement written in the thread.
5. False accusing me for sitting abuse at the end of last year. I also did not remember anyone other except TOFU members were saying that it was abusive and deserves punishment.
6. I do not remember any case that someone from some clan were accusing that clan for abuse. That happened guess to who when Chuuuuck pointed how widespread and organized cheating were occurred inside the clan? Enough to show how much are level of mutual respect inside that clan.


Josko, can you please stop with the blanket statements? It's unfair and dishonorable. You keep saying that TOFU is the most troublesome clan, therein labeling every member within the clan as such. Couldn't similar exaggerated statements be made about Kort? You were warned for account sitting abuse along with Moon and Rodion, if I remember correctly (I know you believe that was unfair. I'm not saying you're a sitting abuser, I'm making the factual statement that you were warned for it). You admitted GLG into your clan who was a known farmer who continued to farm. Is KORT then a clan full of troublemakers, sitting abusers, and farmers? Or were those just the actions of a few for which the rest of the clan should not be held accountable?

You're seeking a broad punishment of an entire clan for actions/decisions that they might not have anything to do with. You're suggesting that the remaining TOFU players who are not retiring, taking a break, or going on vacation and are simply left without the real life time and CC firepower to handle both clan events be punished. TOFU members have also indicated that the clan will be looking to recruit new members to fill this void. Those new players who have nothing to do with this should then be held to the same punishment and prevented from playing in CC clan events because of this, something they had nothing to do with?

I don't see how that's fair, but it seems to be a pattern of behavior. When jcarter1 mentioned that the C-man game was dragging in the game chat, it seemed to me that you intentionally dragged it our further. I think after that, you waited your turn down to about 20 minutes left before moving. What struck me as odd about that was that JC wasn't even in that game, but you seemed to be punishing those who were. I'll avoid going into detail about the CC1 fiasco, which could be construed as more of the same.

So while I COULD make a broad and exaggerated statement that KORT is a clan that seeks to punish innocent players, I won't. I have too much respect for the players in KORT to do such a thing.


Great post, all should read it.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby josko.ri on Thu May 30, 2013 10:00 pm

VioIet wrote:I think the most honorable thing to do is stay in the competition, even if you have to play badly. RA does it all the time. Clan League was absolutely disastrous for us last year as we lost several players without warning, due to a variety of reasons. Over 1/3 of the clan left to form a new clan without any warning, and we had to pick up the pieces within just a few months to play Clan League. Then after that, we had more player issues. Our level of play went from pretty darn good (for us) to downright terrible. We had to accept random invites, deal with missed turns and all sorts of things. But we stayed in it and tried our best.

Even this year, we have our hands full with NCC, CC4 and Clan League. We only have 16 active and about half of those receive the brunt of the invites. It is tough, but we won't withdraw after it starts, if we've already signed up.


Of course no one cares, but still. It's the principal.

Great said Violet, and you aimed it exact in point. Many clans (including KORT) have problems from time to time with some players' inactivities, but all clans always manage with that and at least finish what they started even if their playing level wil be lower because of absences. However, TOFU (as usual) have to be special case, principles which are valid for rest of clan world for them are (surprisingly) not valid.

Master Fenrir wrote:Josko, can you please stop with the blanket statements? It's unfair and dishonorable. You keep saying that TOFU is the most troublesome clan, therein labeling every member within the clan as such. Couldn't similar exaggerated statements be made about Kort? You were warned for account sitting abuse along with Moon and Rodion, if I remember correctly (I know you believe that was unfair. I'm not saying you're a sitting abuser, I'm making the factual statement that you were warned for it).

MF, I do not see problems in telling truth. If I tell lie or you disagree with me, you are free to put counterargument. If I say for example "2. The biggest sitting abuse ever where the whole clan participated actively or passively, because it was proven in the case that CoF was bragging in TOFU forum how he is playing alone vs the whole AFOS Hive team, so others knew very well for his systematic abusing system. " you can correct me and defend yourself if I told lie. However, If I told truth, I do not see problems in that.

So here I will defend myself for some points you told about KORT...
True, I was warned. I believe unfair, but I accepted it, they warned me, and I did not repeat the same wrongdoings. That is purpose of warning, no? To learn from the mistake and to not repeat it. And what TOFU did? At first, they were being so loud in seeking punishment for me, after which they were being punished for the same wrongdoings. Like this is not enough, they continued to do the same sitting abuse, following by second infraction. Obviously, they did not learn from first warning. I say TOFU instead of CoF because CoF was bragging about his sitting abuse practices in TOFU forum and making open agreement with several TOFU members about organizing those sitting abuse, so others were also active or passive involved in the abuse by being aware it is happening and not trying to stop it.

Some examples to prove that copied from this thread: viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174462
2012-06-13 13:28:18 - sonicsteve [team]: Anyway, I'll leave you to take the other hive (sonicsteve)
2012-06-13 13:28:57 - sonicsteve [team]: ok mate, will cover the other. cya (Chariot of Fire)
...
2012-06-13 23:54:00 - Chuuuuck [team]: pete - wanna just wall me (CoF) when u are online and I'll cover this nonsense. Cheers (Chariot of Fire)
2012-06-14 11:15:45 - Pedronicus [team]: right
...
2012-06-15 05:05:25 - sonicsteve [team]: Cof, wanna cover another dose of nonsense?
2012-06-15 07:11:45 - Chuuuuck [team]: lol, ok (Chariot of Fire)
2012-06-15 07:12:30 - Chuuuuck [team]: let me finish chuck, raketen, vixit & frutberg first (Chariot of Fire)
2012-06-15 14:33:49 - sonicsteve [team]: Haha, you're covering for the whole clan now?
2012-06-16 10:01:50 - Chuuuuck [team]: yep (Chariot of Fire)
...
2012-06-19 10:47:13 - sonicsteve [team]: Lol, am I taking this? (sonicsteve)
2012-06-20 05:08:50 - sonicsteve [team]: S15 to take those reds, work that area inc p14, some on b01 to break red at b02. (sonicsteve)
2012-06-20 05:10:01 - sonicsteve [team]: Why is green hogging 12 armies on k05 to defend a 1 bonus? (sonicsteve)
2012-06-20 05:15:55 - sonicsteve [team]: Got red down to 38 and broke his bonus. (sonicsteve)
2012-06-20 07:16:44 - Chuuuuck [team]: You are only taking it if you don't wall me to cover (CoF). I can't write "Are you on" on wals all day - it's driving me nuts (Chariot of Fire)
2012-06-20 07:23:14 - Chuuuuck [team]: and don't get me wrong - while it's great that u saw we are targeting red - u really should have focused more on taking A01 off him and also have made a better fort, e.g P20 to R18, rather than fort away from red as u did. (Chariot of Fire)
2012-06-20 07:24:46 - Chuuuuck [team]: I know you can play Hive very capably. Just I don't feel you can invest the time necessary to study what's going on in depth. Your time seems very fleeting nowadays (Chariot of Fire)
2012-06-20 10:22:33 - sonicsteve [team]: Yes, it is all to fleeting, looked at the r18 fort, but decided it was selfish or could wait until chuck forts me from q20. B19 gives pedro a chance to hit some red... (sonicsteve)
2012-06-20 10:23:58 - sonicsteve [team]: I'm not surprised you're going nuts writing on walls all day, maybe we should get a graffiti artist into the clan... (sonicsteve)
2012-06-20 10:24:28 - sonicsteve [team]: Joking aside, I'm amazed how much covering you do already. (sonicsteve)
...
2012-07-06 03:08:41 - Pedronicus [team]: This 9:30am to 10:00 poker account switch is working like a charm. For anyone to see me with a hong kong flag they only have a window of a minute or two! (Pedronicus)
2012-07-06 03:10:14 - Pedronicus [team]: yeah i know (Chariot of Fire)
2012-07-06 03:10:30 - Pedronicus [team]: great that u r so reliable (Chariot of Fire)
...
2012-05-28 22:39:21 - Iron Maid [team]: we cannot risk against Josko to play under another flag
2012-05-28 22:56:44 - Chariot of Fire [team]: agree. there are 2 ways. 1. Write it all out for Barry (I thought Chuck was handling this game) or 2. Let me log in and you change the flag back again

...
2012-05-22 09:32:49 - Chuuuuck [team]: i am a fan of the entire fort i think... those troops end up in koygoo on my turn, if we can afford to have hatch sit on coahuiltee then i can send them to him
2012-05-22 09:33:04 - Chuuuuck [team]: and he can sent there this entire turn since blue doesn't have the bonus left and we have troops on seminole area still
2012-05-22 09:44:10 - Chuuuuck [team]: CoF looking in (hi Chuck!). Took the opportunity while covering elsewhere. (Chariot of Fire)
...
2012-05-19 16:17:08 - Chariot of Fire [team]: I might just have to catch this for u mate.
2012-05-19 17:22:08 - nippersean [team]: It's fine by me if you want to take it Si
...
2012-05-12 23:53:50 - Chuuuuck [team]: chuck here, i can probably get in the car to head home 2 hours before this expires... should b e able to get it then
2012-05-13 00:21:03 - Chariot of Fire [team]: I can cover it for u. I think I'd rather tbh, just to be on the safe side
...
2012-05-18 09:37:24 - Chariot of Fire [team]: I'll get this one for u Steve
2012-05-18 11:21:45 - sonicsteve [team]: Cheers Si.
2012-05-19 02:50:03 - sonicsteve [team]: I'll come online in two hours, just in case
2012-05-19 04:10:21 - sonicsteve [team]: I'm here mate (Chariot of Fire)
2012-05-19 04:40:46 - sonicsteve [team]: Thanks Si.
...
2012-05-20 09:37:36 - Chariot of Fire [team]: i'll look at this tomorrow pete and maybe catch it for u
2012-05-20 15:50:41 - Pedronicus [team]: ok
...
2012-06-02 07:22:39 - Chariot of Fire [team]: i'll catch this for u pete. just wall me when u are on
2012-06-02 10:12:37 - Chariot of Fire [team]: going to bed soon mate - have to be tomorrow
2012-06-02 14:01:24 - Pedronicus [team]: ok mate
...
2012-06-08 22:23:09 - Chariot of Fire [team]: We need to be online together here Steve.
2012-06-09 05:11:52 - sonicsteve [team]: Could be tricky, wife is going out, but will 7.5 hours from now, and 7.25 hours on clock...
2012-06-09 05:12:20 - sonicsteve [team]: Need to do stuff with the kids...
2012-06-09 06:12:47 - Chariot of Fire [team]: I'll get it for you
...
2012-06-23 00:29:47 - Chariot of Fire [team]: pete...just say the word mate and I'll cover
2012-06-23 06:32:19 - Pedronicus [team]: Peter is back on a uk flag (sonicsteve)
2012-06-23 06:32:47 - Pedronicus [team]: Auto type made him Peter, not Pete. Sonic here. (sonicsteve)
...
2012-06-30 13:18:27 - Pedronicus [team]: I've got to admit, I'm just taking this turn pissed out of my face, killing the oppo, with no plan as to anything else/ sorry
2012-06-30 13:32:13 - Chariot of Fire [team]: well fuckin don't!
2012-06-30 13:32:55 - Chariot of Fire [team]: I've stayed up till 3.30am waiting for you to wall me. I even wrote on your wall to "Wall me when on"
2012-06-30 13:34:29 - Chariot of Fire [team]: f'in joke. Grey has a double deploy and u hit just 1 of his terrs. There was so much more to do (O-11 cell)
2012-06-30 18:13:26 - Pedronicus [team]: i thoght you'd be asleep
...
Together with some quotes from TOFU forum revealed in that thread:
Chariot of Fire wrote:OK Charlie, no worries. Hope things get sorted for you and your folks. Please just don't post anything in any public forums while you are being covered or people will say you are capable of playing your own turns (unless of course it is an absence notice you are posting). Cheers

...
Chariot of Fire wrote:haha, yeah I am, but then I'm doing so well against that Kaskavel trips team playing for you, Chuck & Steve that I'm starting to enjoy it. A bit like Conquerman, there's a perfect logic and symmetry to a lot of it.


Like this was not enough, After all this it followed false accusing of myself for doing account itting abuse again. I know it is hard for TOFU to accept that their sitting practices were revealed and punished twice, so they need to present us doing the same like them but fortunately this moderators defended us from false accusations.

Master Fenrir wrote:You admitted GLG into your clan who was a known farmer who continued to farm. Is KORT then a clan full of troublemakers, sitting abusers, and farmers? Or were those just the actions of a few for which the rest of the clan should not be held accountable?

We saw that GLG is very skilled player, and we accepted him into KORT after he had reached conqueror rank after years on second or third place. Now, when he achieved his goal of being conqueror, we hoped he will stop doing his farming and become valuable member of CC. Also, I was the one who refused to play any new games with him after I realized he is not going to change his farming practices. I knew he liked to play with me so I hoped he will change his attitude and become noteworthy member of CC. That is reason why then he played home maps on maps that every time I played before, like Game 11798710. In addition, KORT was already "punished" for accepting him because when he was banned from the site, we almost lost already won hive game that he was in, and the whole war vs OSA because of that. In clan world he anyway could not farm, so his past farming actions has nothing to do with clan games, and besides his farming past he did not have other infractions. Also, when he entered KORT he had zero official infractions, and every his later infractions were not related to clan world but were to 1v1 games, and now compare it with CoF who has already 2 infractions for the same abuse, just second time in much bigger level, and his infractions have a lot to do with clan world. And you are accusing us for accepting GLG? very funny, better look at your backyard before pointing fingers to us.

Master Fenrir wrote:You're seeking a broad punishment of an entire clan for actions/decisions that they might not have anything to do with. You're suggesting that the remaining TOFU players who are not retiring, taking a break, or going on vacation and are simply left without the real life time and CC firepower to handle both clan events be punished. TOFU members have also indicated that the clan will be looking to recruit new members to fill this void. Those new players who have nothing to do with this should then be held to the same punishment and prevented from playing in CC clan events because of this, something they had nothing to do with?

If clan is unable to play in competitions, then remove them from competitions, so simple. You clearly stated you are not able to compete in CL5, so how we can know you will not do the same withdraw in CC4 later and again screw the same tournament? I ask it only for CC4 because in RL you are already influenced too much and your withdrawing from there would cause result unfairness, but in CC4 you still did not start competition so withdrawing from that competition is better now than risk your possible withdrawing in later rounds and screwing the whole tournament. CL5 and CC4 are ongoing at the same time. If you cannot commit to play in CL5, how we can be sure you will commit to play in CC4? Since this is your second withdrawing and first withdrawing EVER in clan world which has reason about not enough players (in opposite to previous reasons which were turn off the clan), I think clan world should not risk screwing another competition format in midway by your clan. Should you regroup for CC5 and/or CL6, you should be allowed to in, because in future maybe you regroup, but if you withdraw from ongoing competition, then it is better withdraw from another ongoing competition than risk you withdraw in later stage.

Master Fenrir wrote:I don't see how that's fair, but it seems to be a pattern of behavior. When jcarter1 mentioned that the C-man game was dragging in the game chat, it seemed to me that you intentionally dragged it our further. I think after that, you waited your turn down to about 20 minutes left before moving. What struck me as odd about that was that JC wasn't even in that game, but you seemed to be punishing those who were.

Great, now I am also guilty to play my turns in late minutes. I can do with my time whatever I wish. No turn was missed by myself, which would be dragging if that happened, especially if there is pattern in that happening. Playing in last minutes is not dragging, it is my legal right, I can manage my time however I wish.


As a conclusion, I am comparing TOFU involvement in CC4 and CL5:

CC4: As for now, the only their involvement is taking first seed in draw, as they did not play any game yet.
CL5: As for now, their involvement is both taking seed in draw, AND eliminating someone. Premier League has 11 clans instead of 12 which would have if TOFU did not screw the format.

So, If TOFU has time for playing in one of those 2 competitions but not in both, then CL5 is more logical choice because there their involvement in this moment is much deeper than in CC4. The reason that they decided to move out from competition where they already eliminated someone and continue in competition which they did not even start yet, shows enough about how reliable they are. I think we should not allow one clan, which in addition has troublemaking history described in previous posts, to make jokes about major clan tournaments, and risk their withdrawing from CC4 as well. Better eliminate them now, than risk they screw up the whole tournament in later stage.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby denominator on Thu May 30, 2013 10:21 pm

Good lord, please don't fall back into the TOFU/KORT diatribe we've all come to loathe. Not every clan discussion needs to fall into a smear campaign between CoF and josko.

If, and it's a VERY big IF the organizers (qwert) decide to punish TOFU, it's quite simple. All that you have to do is send out the reminder messages for game creation every round and the invites from their opponent, which we all know must go ignored. TOFU will then be forced to forfeit all matches, and if I am correct, will suffer significantly in the F400 rankings. They are also then able to choose which, if any, rounds they are able to play to salvage F400 ranking but will not be able to win the cup.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby chemefreak on Thu May 30, 2013 10:57 pm

TOFU will not be punished for leaving CL5. No more posting in this thread about this issue. The TO made an informed decision and the CDs support it. Now, lets move on. Most of you have games that need to be made, invites sent, and exchanged in a few days. Lets focus on those who are still with us.
:twisted: ChemE :twisted: Praetor
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [Phase 1 close to end]

Postby Qwert on Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:05 pm

Phase 1-active game left
QG1--1
QG2--1
QG3--1
QG4--1
QG5--4
QG6--2
-total--10
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [2nd June Start Phase 2]

Postby Qwert on Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:39 pm

QG3 are finish all games,, this group are now official completed.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [2nd June Start Phase 2]

Postby Qwert on Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:02 am

QG2 are finish all games,, this group are now official completed.
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Re: [CL5]-Clan League 5- main page [2nd June Start Phase 2]

Postby dt03457 on Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:42 am

SoH would like to alter our 10 player list to be:

aglenist
awoodness
dt03457
evertonian
Hjaboa
king15
Loose Canon
PrincipalFoe
umbrellaman
torres44cm

Thx
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