[CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

[jrh_cardinal]

Here's another one. Given #1 will say play #32, how does not equate to farming? I don't want to get into a situation where some qualify for medals and some don't.

I agree with chuck, farming needs to be defined. Whether you follow CC farming rules and it's only on new clans or you use some form of ranking ladder and the clans have to be within a certain amount of spots of each other, this case by case stuff just causes problems. As I said before, the TOFU-T4C challenge will most likely be closer than TFFS-KOTF, so why punish TOFU just because people think they're better?

Personally, unless we see some form of "serial farming", which so far hasn't happened at all, I think it should just be for new clans, until they complete a challenge. Why deny T4C the chance to knock off TOFU? That's like saying a general isn't allowed to join any game against a private, or vice versa.

[jpcloet]

Yes, I think that is the intent everyone has is for it to meet any rules on clan wars just like they would do their own clan war that wasn't part of an event such as this one. Hopefully we can discuss what changes are coming out before games start in March and we can have the wars altered before then however they need to be.

That is possible and likely.

I understand the farming issue, I am still on the side of the opinion that all clan wars should count regardless. I don't see any clans intentionally farming. Plus we can take the liberal view point that the site takes on actual farming and say once a clan is no longer a "new recruit" they are fair to play against whoever they want. I somewhat weed out the "new recuit" clans by requiring two completed challenges before they can participate.

I would love to redefine the farming rule and to some degree a leap ladder (whether formal or informal) could help that.

If you feel that strong about the farming issue, then I would compromise and agree that all clan wars from the 1/4 finals on should definitely count. But I still feel pretty strong that many of the round of 16 games as well as the round of 32 games should count.

That has been suggested before, and I'm more aligned to that.

On a sidenote, I would really love to see AoD be a part of the tournament this time around!

I need to ask my clan, no one's really said anything.

[ljex]

Here's another one. Given #1 will say play #32, how does not equate to farming? I don't want to get into a situation where some qualify for medals and some don't.

I agree with chuck, farming needs to be defined. Whether you follow CC farming rules and it's only on new clans or you use some form of ranking ladder and the clans have to be within a certain amount of spots of each other, this case by case stuff just causes problems. As I said before, the TOFU-T4C challenge will most likely be closer than TFFS-KOTF, so why punish TOFU just because people think they're better?

Personally, unless we see some form of "serial farming", which so far hasn't happened at all, I think it should just be for new clans, until they complete a challenge. Why deny T4C the chance to knock off TOFU? That's like saying a general isn't allowed to join any game against a private, or vice versa.

hate to break your analogy as I agree with your opinion that clans cant farm but people do view it as farming when generals play privates...at least most do.

[jpcloet]

I think if you raise the awareness of newer clans, they wouldn't take the challenge knowing they really have no chance at a win. Part of the problems in the past was that clans that got farmed, often were gone within a few months. That piece is likely on my plate as the CD.

The other issue I have is that if you have a clan who says, we won't face team #10 until you face #5, and then joins this to play team #22, is a little hypocritical. I see this one as on the CLA plate.

[jrh_cardinal]

Here's another one. Given #1 will say play #32, how does not equate to farming? I don't want to get into a situation where some qualify for medals and some don't.

I agree with chuck, farming needs to be defined. Whether you follow CC farming rules and it's only on new clans or you use some form of ranking ladder and the clans have to be within a certain amount of spots of each other, this case by case stuff just causes problems. As I said before, the TOFU-T4C challenge will most likely be closer than TFFS-KOTF, so why punish TOFU just because people think they're better?

Personally, unless we see some form of "serial farming", which so far hasn't happened at all, I think it should just be for new clans, until they complete a challenge. Why deny T4C the chance to knock off TOFU? That's like saying a general isn't allowed to join any game against a private, or vice versa.

hate to break your analogy as I agree with your opinion that clans cant farm but people do view it as farming when generals play privates...at least most do.

well in my view a certain general who has been accused of farming a lot in his ascent would fall under the "serial farmer" category. Yes that brings back case by case to some degree, but it shouldn't be a huge issue as long as no top clan makes a habit of playing a bunch of little guys.

in the past was that clans that got farmed, often were gone within a few months

so you take away current clans free will? And I don't know about others, but I disagree that it's a CD's, or anyone's, job to stop clans from breaking up. It's their clan, they should be able to do whatever they want. If that involves challenging TOFU, great. If they want to break up, it happens.

The other issue I have is that if you have a clan who says, we won't face team #10 until you face #5, and then joins this to play team #22, is a little hypocritical.

edit- nevermind, didn't see the "joins this" part
I agree this wouldn't be the best situation, but again, unless it becomes a habit I don't see a reason to govern it. Just because one clan wants to be hypocritical once or twice shouldn't restrict other clans from basically doing what they want.

[Qwert]

i must say that jpcloet are right.
The concept of Conquer Cup are bracket competition not Clan Chalenge.
In clan chalenge you have two clans who agree to play, and by definition one are proclamed to be a winner-these is official.
Clan league are also official competition.
Conquer Cup are unoficial competition where clans not decide against to play, and all clan who participiate compete to be one winner, so i belive that ,like in tournaments only winner are eligible for medal.

[Lubawski]

I think if you raise the awareness of newer clans, they wouldn't take the challenge knowing they really have no chance at a win. Part of the problems in the past was that clans that got farmed, often were gone within a few months. That piece is likely on my plate as the CD.

Agreed, but I think you are looking at this the wrong way. After 2 challenges, a clan has a little more sustainability. The best way for us to assure clans last is to continue to grow a pleasant environment for them (not one of exclusivity) and to start up a mentor program like Danryan suggested and I seconded in the CLA thread. I think we can get that going pretty quickly after the votes are in. I also think you misunderstand the set up here a bit. If there are 32 teams, then it would be 1v32, but that is not going to happen. The play-ins allow for the bottom portion of the ranked clans to face eachother first, then move up. Last year L4D fought THOTA, they are still around and strong imo than ever.

The other issue I have is that if you have a clan who says, we won't face team #10 until you face #5, and then joins this to play team #22, is a little hypocritical. I see this one as on the CLA plate.

Jab at THOTA? It's more like we won't face the #3 team until they face the #2 team, and then joins this to play team #17. That's actually good for the site though. Remember the semis when THOTA fought Nemesis and it came down to the wire? That was awesome. This format allows for clans to face others that they normally might avoid. Everyone joins this knowing they might fight any clan in here. Friendships and rivalries are formed.

[Ace Rimmer]

qwert: you CAN choose not to face another clan in the CCup, we didn't play LoW for the #3 seeding last year. Chuck already stated that if you don't want to play that's fine, the other clan will advance. I think that's how it should be.

In my point of view, the CCup is a series of challenges with some basic rules. If JP is going to be amending the requirements for clan wars again (which I in theory am a fan of) then I think we should hold off on starting CCup 2 until those rules are ironed out further.

I'm already on record as a fan of any challenge gets a medal, I disagree with the aspects of "clan farming" that JP is worried about.

[shocked439]

We could all save a lot of debate and just implement a computerized ranking system based on 4 different models and calculations, and allow the human polls (chuuuuuk's and jp's ladder) to each count 1/3. Then the 1 and 2 teams could play each other in a national clan off...

Why, if each round were to be played independently of this cup would they earn a medal but if they happen as a part of the cup they are denied the medal? Sounds like cause to go underground in the implementation of the cup. Track the progress and only announce the 1 and 2 team when they play eachother in the finals never disclosing the path they tookto get there.

I understand you don't want to cheapen the value of the clan medal but you've already defined the war that will meet the requirement for it and now you are stating that even though these battles will meet the guidelines they are unworthy of a medal. That is ridiculous.

[Chuuuuck]

Why, if each round were to be played independently of this cup would they earn a medal but if they happen as a part of the cup they are denied the medal? Sounds like cause to go underground in the implementation of the cup. Track the progress and only announce the 1 and 2 team when they play eachother in the finals never disclosing the path they tookto get there.

This is a good way to look at it. If I made a private usergroup with reps from each clan that participated in the group and bracketed the tournament, then when two clans were supposed to face off they went to active challenges and made a clan war with no reference to the conqueror's cup, each and every one of them would get a clan medal, or at least we would discuss whether the 1 vs 16 game is farming, we would probably all agree it isn't just like TOFU vs T4C and then every single battle would get a medal. There is absolutely no difference in me doing that and this except for the forum disclosing it all is out in the public.

I have no intention of doing this, but I guess let me know if your intention is to not give us medals and I will send in my e-ticket for a private usergroup that you are not a part of and each clan will start their war thread on their own.

[jpcloet]

That is not my intention, this is not really a private event nor a tournament. It really is a hybrid. This is to spark the conversation and help me develop rules around such events.

Some of the wars would meet them and some of them would not. Based on 2 of the new rules coming, none of them would meet the medal regulations.

[comic boy]

Perhaps Im wrong but I get the distinct impression that envy is at work here , had the C Cup been organised by then no doubt medals would be now on the agenda

[jpcloet]

You would be wrong, I gave up the league spot so that the CCup could have the main clan timeline.

[Chuuuuck]

That is not my intention, this is not really a private event nor a tournament. It really is a hybrid. This is to spark the conversation and help me develop rules around such events.

Some of the wars would meet them and some of them would not. Based on 2 of the new rules coming, none of them would meet the medal regulations.

Well, can you please share with me what the two new rules are, either here or in a PM so the two of us can start working towards a solution that seems to be in the interest of all involved.

[tyche73]

Perhaps Im wrong but I get the distinct impression that envy is at work here , had the C Cup been organised by then no doubt medals would be now on the agenda

That was what i thought this morning when i read it before i went to work
The ranking system with CLA doesn't work and has always been a bone of contention
C Cup works fine, just rules need to be adjusted, as for medals who cares about them

CC is talking about punishing freestyle farming for over 3 years and sfa has been done and you wanta stop lower clans taking on higher ranked ones..............

More medalling will only turn a good clan tourney in a total balls ....pun intended

[lord voldemort]

stop pussying around new clan rules and actually share....there is no point bringing it up saying nah it wont qualify for an offical challegne cause of xyz if you wont share what xyz....stop being so closed off to the clan community

[Draq]

BoTFM is in please.

Main contact: Draq
Second contact: GallantPellham

[Lubawski]

BoTFM is in please.

Main contact: Draq
Second contact: GallantPellham

I was wondering where you guys were. Someone has to bring the party to this thing.

[pearljamrox2]

This is a good way to look at it. If I made a private usergroup with reps from each clan that participated in the group and bracketed the tournament, then when two clans were supposed to face off they went to active challenges and made a clan war with no reference to the conqueror's cup, each and every one of them would get a clan medal, or at least we would discuss whether the 1 vs 16 game is farming, we would probably all agree it isn't just like TOFU vs T4C and then every single battle would get a medal. There is absolutely no difference in me doing that and this except for the forum disclosing it all is out in the public.

I have no intention of doing this, but I guess let me know if your intention is to not give us medals and I will send in my e-ticket for a private usergroup that you are not a part of and each clan will start their war thread on their own.

I love this. Because the intent all along was for each matchup to be counted as a clan war. Last year it was so they counted in the rankings, and now that we have medals. I would say that since a clan decides to join the tournament, they are choosing to play any and all clans that they might face in the course of it. And in joining, each clan is agreeing to a default set of rules for any and all clan wars that they may face in it's duration.
No one has a problem with clan medals for this, make it so.

p.s. I originally planned on contributing to the rankings, but i was busy and it got buried deep in my inbox. If you don't have anything from Dynasty, let me know and i 'll put ours together for ya.

[peanutsdad]

some one sent me a message saying we had not signed up for this. for the record. Mythology will be participating, but i thought we'd already said that.
ok, back to the regularly scheduled program...

[ljex]

some one sent me a message saying we had not signed up for this. for the record. Mythology will be participating, but i thought we'd already said that.
ok, back to the regularly scheduled program...

you are already signed up

[Bruceswar]

Still missing from last year...

THOTA
KORT
IA
LoW
ID
L4D
BSS
G1
LotZ
DVLL


With EE and O&H dead.... That is 12 of the 18 still missing.

Counting TSM also that is a lot of clans not yet signed up. Of the 10 missing from last year I expect at least 6 to sit out. Just from looking at things.

[Chuuuuck]

Sometimes your posts confuse me Bruce. Seems like the only thing you have commented on here is who isn't going to play and it seems you keep being a pessimist about it. Are you just trying to point out others who aren't going to play because you all aren't going to? I would think if anything we would encourage more people to play because it is great for the clan world and very exciting to watch the tournament unfold.

[Bruceswar]

Sometimes your posts confuse me Bruce. Seems like the only thing you have commented on here is who isn't going to play and it seems you keep being a pessimist about it. Are you just trying to point out others who aren't going to play because you all aren't going to? I would think if anything we would encourage more people to play because it is great for the clan world and very exciting to watch the tournament unfold.

I am just pointing out what I see... I am not sure who will sign up, or even if we will. I was just merely pointing out how many clans have yet to sign up. If you think I have some other agenda that would be incorrect. I would hope all of those clans sign up. We shall see what happens.

[angola]

Don't post whilst drunk.

My apologies all.

I'm an idiot.