[CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Finished challenges between two competitive clans.

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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Qwert on Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:03 pm

"by jpcloet on Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:53 pm

This is not like any other war as the clans do not get to pick and choose who they face. This is a private event and privilege rules have not been clearly defined yet for these types of things. There are 3 examples and both CCup1 and CL2 and CL3 were all handled completely different. We don't have the consistency we should have for various reasons.

As for medals, only the winners will receive medals in a private event. Again, new standards have to be created around formats and minimum sizes etc. This is a good example of what the new CLA should be consulted on. The CCup2 does not meet the "open negotiation" current rule, nor 2 or 3 of the new rules coming that chuuuuck is aware of. All the leauges had Top-Player awards and that is something that Chuuuck and I should be discussing now rather than later."
well you can give medal to winner of cup,i think that its best option.
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Lubawski on Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:28 pm

jpcloet wrote:This is not like any other war as the clans do not get to pick and choose who they face. This is a private event and privilege rules have not been clearly defined yet for these types of things. There are 3 examples and both CCup1 and CL2 and CL3 were all handled completely different. We don't have the consistency we should have for various reasons.

As for medals, only the winners will receive medals in a private event. Again, new standards have to be created around formats and minimum sizes etc. This is a good example of what the new CLA should be consulted on. The CCup2 does not meet the "open negotiation" current rule, nor 2 or 3 of the new rules coming that chuuuuck is aware of. All the leauges had Top-Player awards and that is something that Chuuuck and I should be discussing now rather than later.


I see your point, but all clans are joining this understanding that they may face any other clan that has joined. Just like they are joining saying that they agree to the terms. While not all clans have had a say in how this is organized, many clans did whether in the CLA or the first time around. Nothing is authoritatively dictated by Chuck. The medals discussion can continue in the CLA as this really isn't the place to hold something that large.

As for privs, I think CL3 was awesome in how it was run. All the feedback that was given in the CLA thread was very positive in regards to privs. Because all clans here have participated in at least two challenges, even the new clans have used the privs before and know what to do. I think it would be reasonable to extend them for this event (unless a clan in here has had them revoked--but if that is the case, they probably shouldn't be let in in the first place and Chuck is going to need to know that). Just like a normal challenge, the clans can post in the privs request thread prior to their challenge starting after their war thread has been opened. I know there are a few things you want to be ironed out (like home team joining FOW games first--a pet peeve of yours which really should be solved via a site update that automatically gives a snap to each side in a fog game upon the start [Dako or Chip, do you think something like that is possible?])

Anyway, back on topic here. It's awesome to see so many clans already in here. If everyone else who has posted in this thread whose clan has not joined would jump on board, this thing would be massive. Between this and the League, we have full year exciting events going right now. It's an awesome time to be in a clan.
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Rodion on Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:12 pm

Chuuuuck wrote:
Chuuuuck wrote:Sorry, all, the nature of my business I just get really busy at times and less busy at other times. I have been busy lately and when that happens I usually check games/forums quickly but am a little more slow to update.

Anyway, I started to compile and have decided I am going to ask for votes again. Many of the votes I got were not complete in the manner I need them and on top of that I only received 14 votes which is less than I received the last time around.

A lot of clans are now signing up for Conqueror's Cup 2 that were not in the first one and I think they will now have an interest in completing these votes which they did not have the interest before. So I will try to get more votes.

For the votes that I got, I will quote those PMs back to their senders so they can update them and send them again and it will be minimal work for them. I will ask the ones that didn't complete their votes to fix them so that all votes are uniform and easy to put together for the data needed.

I promise to have these compiled as soon as I get more votes flowing in. I am going to put a deadline of 1 week from today on receiving votes and I will probably hound the leaders every day for the votes.


I posted this in Power Rankings, I will be trying to get more votes for the power rankings because I did not receive near as many as I would like. Everyone listed as a leader in their group should expect a PM soon.


Does that mean that clans with more leaders have more influence on determining the outcome of the rankings or will PMs just serve as information and each clan is entitled to 1 ballot?
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby ljex on Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:14 pm

Rodion wrote:
Chuuuuck wrote:
Chuuuuck wrote:Sorry, all, the nature of my business I just get really busy at times and less busy at other times. I have been busy lately and when that happens I usually check games/forums quickly but am a little more slow to update.

Anyway, I started to compile and have decided I am going to ask for votes again. Many of the votes I got were not complete in the manner I need them and on top of that I only received 14 votes which is less than I received the last time around.

A lot of clans are now signing up for Conqueror's Cup 2 that were not in the first one and I think they will now have an interest in completing these votes which they did not have the interest before. So I will try to get more votes.

For the votes that I got, I will quote those PMs back to their senders so they can update them and send them again and it will be minimal work for them. I will ask the ones that didn't complete their votes to fix them so that all votes are uniform and easy to put together for the data needed.

I promise to have these compiled as soon as I get more votes flowing in. I am going to put a deadline of 1 week from today on receiving votes and I will probably hound the leaders every day for the votes.


I posted this in Power Rankings, I will be trying to get more votes for the power rankings because I did not receive near as many as I would like. Everyone listed as a leader in their group should expect a PM soon.


Does that mean that clans with more leaders have more influence on determining the outcome of the rankings or will PMs just serve as information and each clan is entitled to 1 ballot?


Each clan is entitled one ballot to my knowledge
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Lubawski on Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:26 pm

That is correct. One ballot per clan. And clans don't rank themselves either. They omit their clan when submitting.
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Dako on Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:35 pm

It might be possible to auto-snap the fog game but it will be hard to do. You actually need to visit that page and see if the game was just initialized. After that check the chat for existing snapshots and maybe get one. I think it will be too hard to do. Well, at least I don't have time for that, sorry.
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Chuuuuck on Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:37 pm

I am trying to get a more complete list of all active clans and then the PMs will be sent back out.

And yes, they are right, 1 ballot per clan. I just send the PM to everyone listed as a clan leader to make sure each clan gets the PM and is aware that I want their votes.
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Chariot of Fire on Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:53 pm

This is not like any other war as the clans do not get to pick and choose who they face. This is a private event and privilege rules have not been clearly defined yet for these types of things.


With the bracket for the cup being drawn-up based on seedings that are allocated after a vote, then it could be argued that every participating clan has in some way determined the fate of who will face whom.

Perhaps, at the end of the day, the format could be revised so that the clans facing off get to choose their own settings through negotiation with each other. This way the tournament gets to retain its ideal of being a 'challenge cup' which I believe was the intent since its inception.

Or maybe that could be another tourney altogether. Hmmm....
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Chuuuuck on Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:00 pm

Here is how I think it should be looked at.

Every battle that happens within the cup really has nothing to do with the cup, but instead, is those two clans agreeing to play each other and they will present the winner to the cup for advancement. But at any point, any clan can decide to back out and just not play the matchup that we have for them to play. At that point, the other clan would advance and the challenge never happens, but by participating, both clans are agreeing to play in that challenge. I have even added a rule just like last year that they can tweak the actual settings as long as they both agree on it, so they have the freewill to do as they please. I am a believer that each battle within the cup should be considered a clan war by all involved. I think just about everyone who participates agrees with this viewpoint.
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby jpcloet on Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:10 pm

Not sure I buy that.

So I can change the game types too then, and the player counts, and the map rules then?
What happens when 2 clans cannot come to an agreement?
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Chariot of Fire on Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:24 pm

I see both sides to your arguments here.

Certainly what Chuck has said is in keeping with the ideal of it being a series of challenges that lead to a cup. That's how I always saw it too. It was a convenient way of playing a lot of challenges against clans you might not get to face, with the added benefit of being crowned cup winner at the end of it. If each encounter isn't classified as a challenge then the whole tourney really loses its lustre. I'm not sure I'd want my clan to play 60+ games per round without them counting towards something.

JPC makes a very valid point re two clans not being able to agree on settings. It should be fairly easy to overcome this by setting certain minimum parameters (e.g. minimum number of doubs, trips & quads) and then having each clan decide what games they want to make up the balance.

The upshot of this system: every encounter is a recognised challenge and can run under the auspices of CLA rules governing such, with Chuck as TO. As for medals....well, maybe medals could be awarded from the 1/4 final stages onwards when the two protagonists are obviously on a more level playing field. It would be a bit naff to get to the final, lose, and not get anything after almost a year of previous success.
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Lubawski on Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:46 pm

Chuuuuck wrote:I am trying to get a more complete list of all active clans and then the PMs will be sent back out.

And yes, they are right, 1 ballot per clan. I just send the PM to everyone listed as a clan leader to make sure each clan gets the PM and is aware that I want their votes.


I just sent you the list of all active clans and their leaders. Enjoy. :D
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby ljex on Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:54 pm

jpcloet wrote:Not sure I buy that.

So I can change the game types too then, and the player counts, and the map rules then?
What happens when 2 clans cannot come to an agreement?


This is why there are rules listed at the beginning of this thread, that is the default if clans do not wish to make their own rules...
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby laughingcavalier on Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:07 pm

I liked chuuuuck's idea of giving freedom to clans to decide parameters when he first introduced it last year... but I don't think it worked in CC1. It seems to me all the worst moments of CC1 were fuelled by the looseness of "it's like this, but you can change it if you want to." There are just too many competing & strongly held opinions for that to work in a competition of this size. You've got to say these are the rules, stick by them, otherwise the grey areas become a place where people bang heads together. Having these competions with fairly rigid parameters seems to have encouraged clans to come up with different styles & formats in their other challenges & that's all good, the clan world is big enough now to have competitions that go down set roads and distinct innovations outside that.
For medals, I can't see any good reason to refuse them to a clan that wins any qualifying challenge in the competition. In the tourney section there's certainly no rule to say "this is a weak tourney and you're a strong player so you don't deserve a medal." Everyone entering the Cup knows what they are in for. If a newer or weaker clan comes up against a stronger clan in the early rounds they get the experience of facing a clan they might not get to meet otherwise and they may come back stronger next year for having that experience. For players in a stronger clan the medal should be on offer to say you are here to respect your opponents, show a good face for your clan & play your part in the clan world & you will be rewarded for it.
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Chuuuuck on Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:30 pm

ljex answered your question correctly jp.

Here is what I don't understand jp, you have said in the past and are making the argument again that each war in this challenge does not deserve a medal for various reasons. I have never seen anyone else who joins this competition agree with that. Every clan that has ever joined and played in this competition and voiced any opinion on the matter has always said they joined with the understanding that each round counts as a war and that is the way they prefer it. Why do you feel so adamant to go against the grain of what seems to be a consensus of how everyone feels? The whole idea of this tournament was formed around the idea of grouping together clan wars that were already happening into one bigger common goal of being crowned the winner in the end.

On top of that, every poll I have seen on it has shown that this is one of the most (if not the actual most) popular events in the clan world. I think the views of the threads and posts on the topics speak for themselves. And I agree with CoF that removing the "clan war" status from every round makes it lose some of its lust. Why would you want to do anything to make one of the most popular events less appealing? It seems to me we have the ability to govern ourselves on what counts and what doesn't and I don't really see many people thinking these shouldn't count except you and unfortunately for me this is frustrating because you are the only one that controls the power to do anything about it.

Maybe I am wrong and most of the participants feel that the rounds of the cup shouldn't be considered actual wars, if so, I would really like to see some people speak up and say that is how they see things. If I am wrong and more people feel that way, then by all means, I think we should leave them out. I just want to do what the popular opinion is and right now I think the popular opinion is include the rounds as wars.

*Disclaimer* I think I understand as much as anyone that tone and presentation are very important in any discussion like this and they can often times come across the wrong way when typed out in a post on the internet. I would like to make it clear that I in no way have any ill feelings towards jp or anyone else. Just trying to make an argument for a discussion on how I feel and how I think most feel. I encourage a healthy discussion without personal attacks on the matter.
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Eyestone on Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:42 pm

Chuuuuck wrote:ljex answered your question correctly jp.

Here is what I don't understand jp, you have said in the past and are making the argument again that each war in this challenge does not deserve a medal for various reasons. I have never seen anyone else who joins this competition agree with that. Every clan that has ever joined and played in this competition and voiced any opinion on the matter has always said they joined with the understanding that each round counts as a war and that is the way they prefer it. Why do you feel so adamant to go against the grain of what seems to be a consensus of how everyone feels? The whole idea of this tournament was formed around the idea of grouping together clan wars that were already happening into one bigger common goal of being crowned the winner in the end.

On top of that, every poll I have seen on it has shown that this is one of the most (if not the actual most) popular events in the clan world. I think the views of the threads and posts on the topics speak for themselves. And I agree with CoF that removing the "clan war" status from every round makes it lose some of its lust. Why would you want to do anything to make one of the most popular events less appealing? It seems to me we have the ability to govern ourselves on what counts and what doesn't and I don't really see many people thinking these shouldn't count except you and unfortunately for me this is frustrating because you are the only one that controls the power to do anything about it.


I totally agree with this.
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby angola on Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:47 pm

laughingcavalier wrote:In the tourney section there's certainly no rule to say "this is a weak tourney and you're a strong player so you don't deserve a medal."


I think this is a fair comparison.

You can win a three-round, 16-person tournament for a medal. Or you can win the Map-Blaster tournament and play more than 500 games to do so.

You get a medal for each. And I don't see why you wouldn't get a medal for each round of the CC Cup.
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby jpcloet on Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:06 pm

angola wrote:
laughingcavalier wrote:In the tourney section there's certainly no rule to say "this is a weak tourney and you're a strong player so you don't deserve a medal."


I think this is a fair comparison.

You can win a three-round, 16-person tournament for a medal. Or you can win the Map-Blaster tournament and play more than 500 games to do so.

You get a medal for each. And I don't see why you wouldn't get a medal for each round of the CC Cup.


A series of clan wars and a series of tournaments is not the same, plus this is not the tournament section. People need to stop comparing the 2. IMO, 16 person 1v1s should not be eligible for tournament medals, but that is my opinion.
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby jpcloet on Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:12 pm

I get the inherent agreement that they should all be clan wars. I'm simply challenging you like I did in the first few pms to think a little differently.

Here's another one. Given #1 will say play #32, how does not equate to farming? I don't want to get into a situation where some qualify for medals and some don't.

Also, given you know that new rules are coming in on forfeits and penalties, as well as player maximum restrictions, are you willing to alter the format and wait until those are announced?
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Chuuuuck on Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:24 pm

jpcloet wrote:I get the inherent agreement that they should all be clan wars. I'm simply challenging you like I did in the first few pms to think a little differently.

Here's another one. Given #1 will say play #32, how does not equate to farming? I don't want to get into a situation where some qualify for medals and some don't.

Also, given you know that new rules are coming in on forfeits and penalties, as well as player maximum restrictions, are you willing to alter the format and wait until those are announced?


Yes, I think that is the intent everyone has is for it to meet any rules on clan wars just like they would do their own clan war that wasn't part of an event such as this one. Hopefully we can discuss what changes are coming out before games start in March and we can have the wars altered before then however they need to be.

I understand the farming issue, I am still on the side of the opinion that all clan wars should count regardless. I don't see any clans intentionally farming. Plus we can take the liberal view point that the site takes on actual farming and say once a clan is no longer a "new recruit" they are fair to play against whoever they want. I somewhat weed out the "new recuit" clans by requiring two completed challenges before they can participate.

If you feel that strong about the farming issue, then I would compromise and agree that all clan wars from the 1/4 finals on should definitely count. But I still feel pretty strong that many of the round of 16 games as well as the round of 32 games should count.

On a sidenote, I would really love to see AoD be a part of the tournament this time around!
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby jrh_cardinal on Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:57 pm

jpcloet wrote:Here's another one. Given #1 will say play #32, how does not equate to farming? I don't want to get into a situation where some qualify for medals and some don't.

I agree with chuck, farming needs to be defined. Whether you follow CC farming rules and it's only on new clans or you use some form of ranking ladder and the clans have to be within a certain amount of spots of each other, this case by case stuff just causes problems. As I said before, the TOFU-T4C challenge will most likely be closer than TFFS-KOTF, so why punish TOFU just because people think they're better?

Personally, unless we see some form of "serial farming", which so far hasn't happened at all, I think it should just be for new clans, until they complete a challenge. Why deny T4C the chance to knock off TOFU? That's like saying a general isn't allowed to join any game against a private, or vice versa.
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby jpcloet on Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:59 pm

Chuuuuck wrote:Yes, I think that is the intent everyone has is for it to meet any rules on clan wars just like they would do their own clan war that wasn't part of an event such as this one. Hopefully we can discuss what changes are coming out before games start in March and we can have the wars altered before then however they need to be.
That is possible and likely.

Chuuuuck wrote:I understand the farming issue, I am still on the side of the opinion that all clan wars should count regardless. I don't see any clans intentionally farming. Plus we can take the liberal view point that the site takes on actual farming and say once a clan is no longer a "new recruit" they are fair to play against whoever they want. I somewhat weed out the "new recuit" clans by requiring two completed challenges before they can participate.
I would love to redefine the farming rule and to some degree a leap ladder (whether formal or informal) could help that.

Chuuuuck wrote:If you feel that strong about the farming issue, then I would compromise and agree that all clan wars from the 1/4 finals on should definitely count. But I still feel pretty strong that many of the round of 16 games as well as the round of 32 games should count.
That has been suggested before, and I'm more aligned to that.

Chuuuuck wrote:On a sidenote, I would really love to see AoD be a part of the tournament this time around!
I need to ask my clan, no one's really said anything.
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby ljex on Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:00 pm

jrh_cardinal wrote:
jpcloet wrote:Here's another one. Given #1 will say play #32, how does not equate to farming? I don't want to get into a situation where some qualify for medals and some don't.

I agree with chuck, farming needs to be defined. Whether you follow CC farming rules and it's only on new clans or you use some form of ranking ladder and the clans have to be within a certain amount of spots of each other, this case by case stuff just causes problems. As I said before, the TOFU-T4C challenge will most likely be closer than TFFS-KOTF, so why punish TOFU just because people think they're better?

Personally, unless we see some form of "serial farming", which so far hasn't happened at all, I think it should just be for new clans, until they complete a challenge. Why deny T4C the chance to knock off TOFU? That's like saying a general isn't allowed to join any game against a private, or vice versa.


hate to break your analogy as I agree with your opinion that clans cant farm but people do view it as farming when generals play privates...at least most do.
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby jpcloet on Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:07 pm

I think if you raise the awareness of newer clans, they wouldn't take the challenge knowing they really have no chance at a win. Part of the problems in the past was that clans that got farmed, often were gone within a few months. That piece is likely on my plate as the CD.

The other issue I have is that if you have a clan who says, we won't face team #10 until you face #5, and then joins this to play team #22, is a little hypocritical. I see this one as on the CLA plate.
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Re: 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby jrh_cardinal on Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:41 pm

ljex wrote:
jrh_cardinal wrote:
jpcloet wrote:Here's another one. Given #1 will say play #32, how does not equate to farming? I don't want to get into a situation where some qualify for medals and some don't.

I agree with chuck, farming needs to be defined. Whether you follow CC farming rules and it's only on new clans or you use some form of ranking ladder and the clans have to be within a certain amount of spots of each other, this case by case stuff just causes problems. As I said before, the TOFU-T4C challenge will most likely be closer than TFFS-KOTF, so why punish TOFU just because people think they're better?

Personally, unless we see some form of "serial farming", which so far hasn't happened at all, I think it should just be for new clans, until they complete a challenge. Why deny T4C the chance to knock off TOFU? That's like saying a general isn't allowed to join any game against a private, or vice versa.


hate to break your analogy as I agree with your opinion that clans cant farm but people do view it as farming when generals play privates...at least most do.

well in my view a certain general who has been accused of farming a lot in his ascent would fall under the "serial farmer" category. Yes that brings back case by case to some degree, but it shouldn't be a huge issue as long as no top clan makes a habit of playing a bunch of little guys.

jpcloet wrote:in the past was that clans that got farmed, often were gone within a few months

so you take away current clans free will? And I don't know about others, but I disagree that it's a CD's, or anyone's, job to stop clans from breaking up. It's their clan, they should be able to do whatever they want. If that involves challenging TOFU, great. If they want to break up, it happens.

jpcloet wrote:The other issue I have is that if you have a clan who says, we won't face team #10 until you face #5, and then joins this to play team #22, is a little hypocritical.

edit- nevermind, didn't see the "joins this" part
I agree this wouldn't be the best situation, but again, unless it becomes a habit I don't see a reason to govern it. Just because one clan wants to be hypocritical once or twice shouldn't restrict other clans from basically doing what they want.
Last edited by jrh_cardinal on Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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