[CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Incandenza on Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:43 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:nippersean's proposal seems to be an excellent solution, i.e. a player is eligible to play for his new clan on the basis there is no objection by the other side. This way any veto becomes a collective decision rather than putting all the onus on the TO (and is a new rule), thereby avoiding any contradiction of precedents set in CC1 where some players were excluded.


Yeesh, I'd almost rather let Chuck deal with it on a case-by-case basis. Sure, it's nice to assume an honorable opposition, but that isn't always the case.

Personally, I think we should try and keep this as inclusive as possible. A couple people have used pro sports comparisons, which I loathe because they're simply not applicable. Trying to draw comparison between how professional leagues handle player movement and how we handle people changing clans here is ludicrous.

Generally speaking, I think the "player can change clans but have to sit out a round" concept is the far boundary of a hard-line on the issue. But I just don't think this concept of clan-stacking is really as big of an issue as we're making it out to be.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:48 pm

I too would find it very unlikely that there will be instances of clan stacking, so in truth it's not this scenario that I've had in mind. What would bother me is to have played against a clan who have heavily featured one star player who then leaves that clan and joins another who we are going to have to play against. Same player, same maps, same direction all over again? No thanks.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby pascalleke on Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:44 am

Funny , did not know there was such a heated discussion going on here till jackal pointed this out :D

@Namor : thanks ;) i just hope i can give u and ur clan a good fight ^^
@LMS : yeah that was one of the hardest decision to make for me last year , never expected 2 things , 1. to meet those fine drunks like u guys and becoming a FOED , altough it was for a short while , ive never seen such a fine bunch of players and for me i love the most of u guys , tough break for the ones who do not love me ;) 2. me becoming a THOTA , yess indeed it was a hard battle and never expected getting in at a certain point , I even had given up on that . That things change in life , even unexpected was a good lesson for me , wich i use also in real life .
@ Chuuuuck: i agree on not to make it a case by case basis ruling but u also must realize some things are unique on its own , i can admit my case was. It was a case of many years and i would never had joind FOED if i had the knowledge wich i have now altough i am happy i met some of FOED .For me its clear wenn THOTA and FOED go final this CC cup i will not participate , would to me the most honourable thing to do ;) just a little fortune telling
@ Brucewar : u cant compare me to the best712 case , this is now and my case was really different , trust me on that ;)
@ all others : I cant speak for the other cases but sitting out a whole year is tough , sure a loyalty to a clan can be expected but as i said before u can only make ur assumptions for the full 100 % right if u are aware of the whole story , based on the stories by the particpants in those stories/cases ...and not on ur own experiences and as i call it "the past eyes where we all look through " .
I see some different things here ...players who leave a clan already eliminated , and players leave a clan still in the running, for the players leaving a clan still in the running a simpel rule could apply ; not play vs his old clan , most gentleman act to do! For the other players wich left an clan already eliminated ....well for the other players wich left an clan already out , think nippers idea is best here...Cant believe that many clans would exclude a player on that manner.
As for the Ringers , dont know if there where or are any ringers , but as already stated dont believe that group , if even excisted would not be that big ? And if so think they will be easily detected. Last thing : compare CC with sports leagues and also using their rules is really far stretched so indeed not usable. Lets keep it plain and simpel i say , life and CC is as complicated already :lol:
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby jpcloet on Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:26 pm

I like the idea of missing a round, however, maybe you could limit the number of games. So instead of missing a round, a new transfer can only play X games in the next round.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby pascalleke on Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:35 pm

jpcloet wrote:I like the idea of missing a round, however, maybe you could limit the number of games. So instead of missing a round, a new transfer can only play X games in the next round.

Why seems there to be the need to punish such players ? :roll: Yeah to me and think to them all this limitation or missing a round can be seen as an punishment ....so i am very curious on the principal behind these suggestions.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby jrh_cardinal on Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:03 pm

pascalleke wrote:
jpcloet wrote:I like the idea of missing a round, however, maybe you could limit the number of games. So instead of missing a round, a new transfer can only play X games in the next round.

Why seems there to be the need to punish such players ? :roll: Yeah to me and think to them all this limitation or missing a round can be seen as an punishment ....so i am very curious on the principal behind these suggestions.

Eye rolling really doesn't help, everyone making suggestions is decreasing the "punishment" anyway, at the beginning of the discussion Chuck's stance was you can't play at all after changing clans, period. If you don't believe that, Chuck himself sat out round 1 so he could change clans and still play, obviously in his head that's what the rule was.

The principal is having a bunch of good players vacating their clan after they lose and joining another still in the Cup is not a good idea, not in the best interests of the tournament. It's not a punishment, you have your opportunity to play with FOED.
It's like a trade deadline (which is a pretty good analogy), in pro sports you have to keep the team that got you there in the playoffs as opposed to adding a bunch of All-Stars. The playoffs in any sport would be a joke if the Championship was basically one league's All-Star team against the others. No one in any pro sport complains they can't switch to a good team at the end of the season just because their team didn't make the playoffs. This is not tee-ball, not everyone is a winner, not every good player can play in the championship. You get there as a clan, you keep your same clan.

That's why the rule is in place, however your situation is different, which is why there is a discussion, and why the rule is probably changing so you can play. Just be careful before you eye roll your supporters again, a rule is being changed in your favor and you thank people by acting annoyed.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby pascalleke on Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:09 am

jrh_cardinal wrote:
pascalleke wrote:
jpcloet wrote:I like the idea of missing a round, however, maybe you could limit the number of games. So instead of missing a round, a new transfer can only play X games in the next round.

Why seems there to be the need to punish such players ? :roll: Yeah to me and think to them all this limitation or missing a round can be seen as an punishment ....so i am very curious on the principal behind these suggestions.

Eye rolling really doesn't help, everyone making suggestions is decreasing the "punishment" anyway, at the beginning of the discussion Chuck's stance was you can't play at all after changing clans, period. If you don't believe that, Chuck himself sat out round 1 so he could change clans and still play, obviously in his head that's what the rule was.

The principal is having a bunch of good players vacating their clan after they lose and joining another still in the Cup is not a good idea, not in the best interests of the tournament. It's not a punishment, you have your opportunity to play with FOED.
It's like a trade deadline (which is a pretty good analogy), in pro sports you have to keep the team that got you there in the playoffs as opposed to adding a bunch of All-Stars. The playoffs in any sport would be a joke if the Championship was basically one league's All-Star team against the others. No one in any pro sport complains they can't switch to a good team at the end of the season just because their team didn't make the playoffs. This is not tee-ball, not everyone is a winner, not every good player can play in the championship. You get there as a clan, you keep your same clan.

That's why the rule is in place, however your situation is different, which is why there is a discussion, and why the rule is probably changing so you can play. Just be careful before you eye roll your supporters again, a rule is being changed in your favor and you thank people by acting annoyed.

For me that rolling eyes smiley was never interpreted as stating that i was annoyed , to me it is more expressing a whondering and a questioning , thats all. Put 10 people in a room , place a yellow coffee can on a table there. Ask those 10 different people to discribe that coffee pot , u will get 10 different discriptions. For the rest i am grateful those discussions come up , not only this one .And yep i admit i love using smileys , to me they always give replys a funny note to some what heavy discussions. So sorry i never intented to let u think i was annoyed and i believe my question was truly legit.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby stahrgazer on Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:39 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:I too would find it very unlikely that there will be instances of clan stacking, so in truth it's not this scenario that I've had in mind. What would bother me is to have played against a clan who have heavily featured one star player who then leaves that clan and joins another who we are going to have to play against. Same player, same maps, same direction all over again? No thanks.


Since that "star player" can only play in 1/3 of the games, that "star player" isn't going to make or break an entire clan.

But, whether a player can PLAY or not, doesn't prevent any player from directing play on any map he or she wishes; it just takes someone letting that player look in on their password (if fog) - which is legal - then directing the play from the sidelines.

So, not letting a "star player" play doesn't eliminate the situation you fear anyway.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Incandenza on Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:02 pm

Time for another bracket update. 8-)
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Lubawski on Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:58 pm

Incandenza wrote:Time for another bracket update. 8-)


That means THOTA officially move on. Not that you can tell without looking in detail at their locked thread. Let's hope for a more civil next round...which I think can be guaranteed.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Incandenza on Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:11 pm

Lubawski wrote:Let's hope for a more civil next round...which I think can be guaranteed.


I dunno, I've been meaning to call Namor a fuckface for some time now. :lol:
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby NanoTheGreat on Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:46 pm

Incandenza wrote:
Lubawski wrote:Let's hope for a more civil next round...which I think can be guaranteed.


I dunno, I've been meaning to call Namor a fuckface for some time now. :lol:


Hahahaha!!!! :lol: :lol:
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby angola on Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:57 pm

So, seven of the top eight seeds reached the quarterfinals.

I guess the rankings were pretty spot on then.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:06 am

angola wrote:So, seven of the top eight seeds reached the quarterfinals.

I guess the rankings were pretty spot on then.



Now is your time to shine and take out THOTA. Lets see what AOC is made of!
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby jrh_cardinal on Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:23 am

angola wrote:So, seven of the top eight seeds reached the quarterfinals.

I guess the rankings were pretty spot on then.

Nope, not yet at least. We're still 20-19 over BOFM with 2 games still very undecided.

The rankings were okay, but I wouldn't go near spot on. #24 beat #9 for starters. No way that should happen in a 40 game challenge, and that's on the rankings, TFFS showed before this they're at least a top 20 clan.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby angola on Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:46 am

jrh_cardinal wrote:
angola wrote:So, seven of the top eight seeds reached the quarterfinals.

I guess the rankings were pretty spot on then.

Nope, not yet at least. We're still 20-19 over BOFM with 2 games still very undecided.

The rankings were okay, but I wouldn't go near spot on. #24 beat #9 for starters. No way that should happen in a 40 game challenge, and that's on the rankings, TFFS showed before this they're at least a top 20 clan.


Ahh, you are very right. I was thinking of the top eight only.

And TFFS is very good. If they had more depth, they'd be a top 10 clan in my opinion.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby angola on Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:47 am

Bruceswar wrote:
angola wrote:So, seven of the top eight seeds reached the quarterfinals.

I guess the rankings were pretty spot on then.



Now is your time to shine and take out THOTA. Lets see what AOC is made of!


We'll try our hardest.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Namor on Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:13 pm

Incandenza wrote:
Lubawski wrote:Let's hope for a more civil next round...which I think can be guaranteed.


I dunno, I've been meaning to call Namor a fuckface for some time now. :lol:


:lol: yeah, love you too...

... just so you know, we still have an edge to the weapons we used on The Foreskins.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Incandenza on Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:50 pm

Namor wrote:
Incandenza wrote:
Lubawski wrote:Let's hope for a more civil next round...which I think can be guaranteed.


I dunno, I've been meaning to call Namor a fuckface for some time now. :lol:


:lol: yeah, love you too...

... just so you know, we still have an edge to the weapons we used on The Foreskins.


It'd be more threatening if it were dull, Alan Rickman style.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Dako on Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:22 pm

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VDvgL58h_Y]Spoon[/ulr] would be a good choice as well.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:32 am

From Clan Medals thread.

You know, if this really is CC's thinking, then any of these larger matches need to start being rank discriminatory. Maybe next year's cup should be limited only to the top 8 seed perceptions. :roll:

Really pisses me off to have a medal denied or delayed because my clan is considered to have FARMED for a medal just because we joined a larger skirmish series.


stahrgazer wrote:
chemefreak wrote:
Dako wrote:It was not #4 vs #34 because our rankings are not official and are based on perceptions. So they do not mean the strength of the clan, they mean only the seeding position. Yes, they are reflection the strength, but it is not a precise reflection at all.


These #s are actually based on the unofficial ladder, not perception. With a few hundred challenges on it now, it is actually looking pretty accurate. Now, even if perception were built in, who here seriously thinks that OSA vs LoW was an evenly weighted war or "fair fight" (besides LoW and OSA)?

Or is this still you TOFU guys sore about not getting medals for the T4C challenge? :lol: Btw, I probably wouldn't hold my breath on that one. I don't care how much any formula is tweaked for that one, I don't see that ever happening.


No, it's about ridiculous arbitrary changes in rules based on, "because I said so."

It's about being penalized because Chuuuuck welcomed more teams in his matches than the other cup welcomed in theirs.

It's about, just because a clan is new, does not mean the PLAYERS in the clan are new to CC or to clans or clan wars (the Pack, in the Newcomer's cup, is an example of a "new clan" led by experienced clanners.)

It's about the fact that the initial annoucement about clan war medals saying NOTHING about any possible 'farming' problem; just a requirement for number of games.

It's about the fact that Chuuuck didn't make those 'seedings' based on a ladder, he took votes from all the participating clans, which is PERCEPTION not "unofficial ladder."

It's about the fact that ALL, not just SOME of these Cup skirmishes meet the requirements for medals.

It's also about the fact that Legends of War didn't join a Conqueror's Cup skirmish so we could "farm" and by denying our rightful awards for winning against first OSA and then Legion, you are implying that that's what we did. And you're implying that everyone else who had to play in a play-in round (that LoW didn't want to have to play, by the way) and 16-games round joined because they got a chance to "farm."
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby SirSebstar on Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:42 am

stahrgazer wrote:From Clan Medals thread.
You know, if this really is CC's thinking, then any of these larger matches need to start being rank discriminatory. Maybe next year's cup should be limited only to the top 8 seed perceptions. :roll:

Really pisses me off to have a medal denied or delayed because my clan is considered to have FARMED for a medal just because we joined a larger skirmish series.

What?
You guys did not get a medal, did anybody else in the same round? i am a bit confused here. care to clarify?
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:33 am

SirSebstar wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:From Clan Medals thread.
You know, if this really is CC's thinking, then any of these larger matches need to start being rank discriminatory. Maybe next year's cup should be limited only to the top 8 seed perceptions. :roll:

Really pisses me off to have a medal denied or delayed because my clan is considered to have FARMED for a medal just because we joined a larger skirmish series.

What?
You guys did not get a medal, did anybody else in the same round? i am a bit confused here. care to clarify?



Other Cup series seed top v bottom and got medals.

Answer given for that is because none of the players in the other cup series is elite enough to "be considered farming" and yet, according to Conquer Club rules, farming is the systematic attempt to take advantage, and one or two games isn't supposed to be evidence; taking that to clan wars, one or two wars shouldn't be considered evidence of farming either.

Only in someone's arbitrary delusions would participation in a series be considered farming that was open only to experienced clans, experience being defined as having completed two wars.

By denying or delaying these medals, you imply that LoW and the other top clans joined a larger series in order to farm.

Thus, you imply that the Conqueror's Cup should be renamed, "Farmer's Cup."

To prevent that, Chuuuck should change the 3rd annual to allow only the top 16 clans.

Then again, since whatever roster is being used to determine 'farming' is, by mod words, "unofficial" it shouldn't be used at all.

"Farming" is not legal on the site. Any clan who farms shouldn't just not get a medal, they should be given disciplinary action.

If it's not "farming" enough to warrant disciplinary action, then it's not farming, is it?

But if it is farming, then Chuuuck needs to change the cup to prevent this illegal action from taking place.

And while we're at it, no experienced clan should ever accept a newer clan's challenge anymore; Farming is illegal on the site so if they're farming to accept, then they should refuse the challenge.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby SirSebstar on Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:43 pm

You are mixing up the site rule of farming noobs with clanfarming. 2 completely different things, I would have thought you knew that.
No clanmedals will be given if a clanwar is deemed unfair in the eyes of the TD. It is assumed that any game but the finals or the final 4 is not going to recieve a clanwar medal.
Try to compare it with a multi event tournament. You can only get a medal for actually winning the damm thing. If you won an underlying tournament that awards you the finals spot, you do not also get another medal for winning the finals
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby nippersean on Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:15 pm

Well I don't give a monkey's wank about medals myself, but does anyone think any of the last 16 matchups was a clan farming job?
Any of the last 8? Please explain which clans and why. BOTFM if they beat TOFU? 'tis farming?
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