Conquer Club

Namor wrote:

Master Fenrir wrote:I'm rooting for IA, but I fear the legendary AoC dice...

You mean "the legendary AoC dice" that weren't as good as the IA dice, in our only 2 encounters?

For the record, it was meant solely as a joke and I didn't mean to imply that you AoC can only rely on their dice to win.

All I know is that I hate playing you guys. When I see you fill my games, I cringe. Especially if Beer's on my team.

Master Fenrir wrote:

Namor wrote:

Master Fenrir wrote:I'm rooting for IA, but I fear the legendary AoC dice...

You mean "the legendary AoC dice" that weren't as good as the IA dice, in our only 2 encounters?

For the record, it was meant solely as a joke and I didn't mean to imply that you AoC can only rely on their dice to win.

All I know is that I hate playing you guys. When I see you fill my games, I cringe. Especially if Beer's on my team.

For the record, I have no skill and rely solely on dice.

angola wrote:

Master Fenrir wrote:

Namor wrote:

Master Fenrir wrote:I'm rooting for IA, but I fear the legendary AoC dice...

You mean "the legendary AoC dice" that weren't as good as the IA dice, in our only 2 encounters?

For the record, it was meant solely as a joke and I didn't mean to imply that you AoC can only rely on their dice to win.

All I know is that I hate playing you guys. When I see you fill my games, I cringe. Especially if Beer's on my team.

For the record, I have no skill and rely solely on dice.

... and for the record, I took it as a joke and my reply was intended to pull your plonker. Consider it pulled.

Like angola, I also, would be lost, without my "legendary dice".

1st win goes to Immortal Assassins

Greetings from Croatia

Good luck to both clans! This will be a fun one to watch.

looks like loki is on a roll

From a quick view of the games, I'm glad we're not playing IA in this one. They're pissed off and looking for blood!

By now most know of the "loop hole" that allows a player to attack (be it in a nuclear or escalating game) and not receive a spoil by intentionally timing out their turn. We are well aware that there are some on this site that think this sort of cheap tactic is fine, if it can be passed off as a loophole in the rules. It doesn't matter how you look at it, it's bollocks. If everyone followed the same cheap tactic, then every escalating game would reach round 4 then become a No Spoils game, whilst the remaining turns all timed out. At least until one team got a stranglehold, then the losing cowards would start to cash, in a desperate attempt to claw the game back.

We were under the impression that most top tier clans on this site would share the same point of view. When playing a normal war it can easily be worked into the pre-war negotiations. But we never expected to run into this in the League Finals.

Agents of Chaos are of the opinion that two wrongs don't make a right, so won't be using the same cowardly tactic. The problem there though, is that it becomes clear that any clan that wishes to play this game in the true spirit (with honour) is at a clear disadvantage in a competition that allows another clan to cheat (be it through a legal loophole or not). The question now is does IA (as a whole) condone or condemn the actions of JBoy and 300 Spartans? We know that you are under no obligation to respond to us, but hope that IA is honorable enough to tell us their intentions and what matter of tactics we have to look forward to for the rest of the match.

Details of the incidence are as follows:

show: Incident

It's a shame that they had to resort to these cheap tactics, because they have been playing well in a lot of games and stood a good chance of winning this without cheating.

AOC considers use of this exploit to be cheating. We are likely to state that we want opponents to sign up to not using it ahead of all future challenges in which we partake. Our participation in future events is likely to be dependent on it. We want to play this game the way it's meant to be played, we hope that most people would see it that way.

This is posted on behalf of all of the Agents of Chaos and is our collective view.


Edit: Fixed a lost game link.

Eyestone wrote:Details of the incidence are as follows:

show: Incident

You missed to mention that your mate regan missed/skipped his turn in 3rd Crusade. I am always a fan of telling the whole story. I don´t say this would legitimate running out of time, i just believe it´s always better not to hide such details which might be important too. Skipped turns can be considered cheap tactics too, and since you guys already discuss this subject, it doesn´t seem to be very likely that nobody was able to sit for regan (i don´t say you skipped it on purpose, but it looks like in this situation, of course it can still be a normal missed turn)

To the topic:
I have heard this discussion more then once before, and usually more people tend to agree with Eyestone/AOC about this, but others say , if the system still allows it, it must be a feature.
IMO CC mechanics should be changed in that way that you get a card after you conquered/bombed ter in your turn, no matter if you end your turn or not. Would be a suprise if that has never been suggested in Suggestion Forum, perhaps someone who has seen it there can tell us what was the reason to decide against it, or tell us that they plan it soon.

I think this should be discussed, and if CC doesn´t change the mechanics, then clans should consider to make a gentleman rule about this. All Clans would have to agree to this rule if playing League or CC Cup, in clan wars both clans can discuss it.
In case majority considers this a feature, then we should let every clan know that it´s fine to run out of time.

Seulessliathan wrote:

Eyestone wrote:Details of the incidence are as follows:

show: Incident

You missed to mention that your mate regan missed/skipped his turn in 3rd Crusade. I am always a fan of telling the whole story. I don´t say this would legitimate running out of time, i just believe it´s always better not to hide such details which might be important too. Skipped turns can be considered cheap tactics too, and since you guys already discuss this subject, it doesn´t seem to be very likely that nobody was able to sit for regan (i don´t say you skipped it on purpose, but it looks like in this situation, of course it can still be a normal missed turn)

To the topic:
I have heard this discussion more then once before, and usually more people tend to agree with Eyestone/AOC about this, but others say , if the system still allows it, it must be a feature.
IMO CC mechanics should be changed in that way that you get a card after you conquered/bombed ter in your turn, no matter if you end your turn or not. Would be a suprise if that has never been suggested in Suggestion Forum, perhaps someone who has seen it there can tell us what was the reason to decide against it, or tell us that they plan it soon.

I think this should be discussed, and if CC doesn´t change the mechanics, then clans should consider to make a gentleman rule about this. All Clans would have to agree to this rule if playing League or CC Cup, in clan wars both clans can discuss it.
In case majority considers this a feature, then we should let every clan know that it´s fine to run out of time.

Actually, the part I've marked in red explains the missed turn. Just to clearify it further I'll add; we sent a PM to lokisgal, pointing out her stance on the cheap tactic and offered to have all players miss a turn or time out, until it got back round to JBoy.

Namor wrote:Hi Loki

I know, from your stance in the CLA, regarding Nuke spoils;

lokisgal wrote:boo on the nukes to much room for abuse.

...that you consider it to be cheap tactics, to deliberately 'time out'. Which is why I can only assume that you are unaware of these two occurrences.

Game 9291368, a few hours after this game, Jet had the same opportunity, but didn't take it. We gave IA the benefit of the doubt and moved on.

Game 9291365 however, this game could be turned over because of it. We didn't want to take the first cash either, but we just didn't attack with Hypo's turn and then my turn had a 4-1 attack fail, so i had no choise anyway. But JBoy, has not only attacked and timed out, he has also ended up with a bonus. I'm certain that if IA win, they would like to know they did it within the spirit of the game (you only need look at the shit that KoRT has had, since their win over TOFU, to see the drawback of such a win).

I propose that each of the remaining 5 players, all time out (attacks may or may not be carried out), until we come back round to JBoy. I will advise Regan to do so on his turn, regardless, in case you don't receive this PM before his turn.

Lokisgal replied

lokisgal wrote:hey

ive pmed Jboy to see what happened - I cant speak for a game Im not in. Hopefully Ill hear from him when he logs on later today . If you all want to have someone time out thats ok with me
for now til I know what happend that seems like the best idea to me

Then after Regan had missed HIS turn, lokisgal replied with;

lokisgal wrote:hey Namor

thanks but we decline to have everyone time out their turn

If that didn't compound the issue further, then another time out by JustCallMeStupid certainly did.

---------------------------------------

For the record I also missed a turn in the Iraq game. This was due to the fact I was caught up in this business and whilst writing on our forum and seeking advice elsewhere, the time ran away from me and I forgot my games. As it happens I believe my miss has done us a huge disservice and has likely cost us a game that we had the edge on.

Ah yes, then it´s fine, i failed to see the last line, my fault Eyestone.

As long as opponents clan doesn´t agree about missing turns, imo you guys should have played your turns. Everybody skipping a turn changes the situation because of deffered units. Your options seemed to be : play normal, or do the same, run out of time after playing. You can fight back with the same tactics or decide to keep up the opinion that running out of time is cheap tactics and you won´t do it.
Missing turns isn´t an option imo here.
Have you checked suggstion forum about this? For now i would suggest you play same tactics until IA and AOC find an agreement about this.

Question is if you say this is a rule , written or unwritten, and they have to follow it , or if you bring this up to get a rule about this for further clan events. I hope IA and AOC will have an agreement about this soon and i hope there will be a rule about this for all clan events. I´m ok to say it´s legal, i´m ok to decide it will be forbidden, i´m fine with a change of game mechanics (my prefered option) but i really dislike having no rule about this.

Reminds me of the problem that some clans didn´t fill their home games before the away team because they want to get the first look at a game. Perhaps we can have a rule like the 12 hour fog rule about this too.

It's too late for this challenge. We have elected not to abuse this loophole and if we suffer because of it then so be it. IA could choose to not do it anymore, but we won't change our position

I think there may need to be some kind of ruling from jp here.
It is obvious that they have abused the system to gain an advantage. Sure its not technically a site violation. But it is a well known loop hole that is known to many clans and the main reason why nukes are not common place in clan games. Whilst we assume every clan conducts themselves with honour recent events like this...the sitting issues with other clans...it makes me wonder.
This really goes against the integrity of this tournament (which is an official clan tournament)
And while I dont think IA as a whole are responsible they are a group and should be punished as a group in this challenge.
Not to mention the two toned nature from loki in the cla forums and then her clan making moves like this (but obviously she cant speak for everyone in her clan)

tl;dr This is wrong, should be punished..clan mods/cla reps need to do something about it

AOC has missed turns in multiple games - one could argue that this is also a cheap tactic to gain an extra drop.

Please dont misquote me Namor. I said if you want to have him time out thats ok - I never said I agreed I never said sure he should. I certainly never said he should miss a turn by either clan.

I replied to Namor at 8 12 pm in the pm where I declined after I spoke to my co leader and the parties in that game and the turn in that game was missed several hours after that. My response was sent before the missed turn occurred. I didnt respond til I did because there was some clan discussion that needed to occur before that.
In any case this is an exact quote from the PM from Namor

I propose that each of the remaining 5 players, all time out (attacks may or may not be carried out), until we come back round to JBoy. I will advise Regan to do so on his turn, regardless, in case you don't receive this PM before his turn

No where does it suggest missing a turn as they chose to do.

I'm certain that if IA win, they would like to know they did it within the spirit of the game (you only need look at the shit that KoRT has had, since their win over TOFU, to see the drawback of such a win).

this also from Namor

to compare this to KoRT and TOFU is just silly - its not even the same issue

This is a list of games where AOC has missed turns thus far.

Game 9289631
Game 9291344
Game 9291364
Game 9291365

The missed turns null and void this discussion. - IA isnt going to argue back and forth on this. If AOC wants to throw stones then they shouldnt live in glass houses

Excellent ! So you deliberately cheat but compare it to some missed turns and suggest that cancels it out !

What evidence do you offer that all of those turns were missed on purpose. To take Rail Africa as an example, qyu missed his turn by mistake and we didn't spot it until it was too late. Given how that game is playing out, it's obvious to those in the game that missing that deploy was a serious disadvantage and not vice versa.

I don't think we are suggesting that the KORT issue is the same, purely that we assume every clan would want to win any challenge the right way and with no room for discussion of any kind.

I think we would prefer to hear why you think this approach is acceptable as opposed to attempting to shift the discussion elsewhere.

missed should never give you that much of an advantage compared to deliberate timing out to not card. They are seperate issues.
And I am yet to find a clan that would seriously complain about another clan missing turns in a challenge.
Most especially in a no spoils game. If you cant take advantage of a team missing turns in a no spoils game early then perhaps you should abuse the game more to actually win

Does IA have a stance on the "loop hole"?
We don't expect you to agree as a whole, every clan is going to have a mixed camp on the issue.
But there should be a prevailing consensus from your group that you as a clan play by. Right?
...maybe that's where we're wrong.

For the record AoC does not intentionally miss turns. Any sort of tactics would be dealt with internally by us.
We have our code of conduct.

Regan missed that turn, rather than time out, because we were leaving it for as long as we possibly could (waiting for a reply from Lokisgal). In the end, the majority of us were in bed by the time it came around and I guess there was just nobody with Regan's pass that was still up at 4.0am our time. On top of which, Regan has just recently announced that he is unable to get to CC as much now and is retiring, so I assume he wasn't over concerned about the game either, especially as IA had just turned it on its head. This is obviously the reason for his second miss, we thought he was going to be around, to complete his games, but it looks like we are going to have to keep a closer eye on his account for him. At AoC, we don't ALL hold every other Agents pass, each of us has only 1-4 sitters, clearly we are going to have to get on top of Regan's games somehow. So if he misses anymore, don't be surprised.

I can't speak for Qyu and his missed turn, other than to say, he apologised to the rest of us for screwing up, so he didn't expect it to gain an advantage.

My miss on Iraq, I've already said, was due to my writing a PM to lokisgal about the timing out and the chasing around, to get hold of the rest of AoC and a few friends (for advice). Consequently, I was not looking at my games and didn't know of the miss, until Eyestone PM'd me. I shouldn't really need to justify this, since the miss left us at a disadvantage, after IA gained a bonus because of it... but here it is anyway.

iraq

Sent: 07 Jul 2011, 16:59
by Eyestone
You had the time to write a pm to Loki, and didn't have time to take the turn?

Re: iraq

Sent: 07 Jul 2011, 17:03
by Namor
Oh bollox, I got carried away with all this shit and didn't realise the time had moved on.

I was already pissed about the Third Crusade game, now this has just about ended my enjoyment of this fucking shitty site. There is way to much bickering and cheating, i don't really enjoy it any more. I'm fairly certain that I will quit, after these games.

I'm happy for anyone to have a mod check and verify these two PM's, if they think it's necessary.

----------------------------------------

Lokisgal mentioning the missed turns, is just a sorry attempt to justify her clans cheap game play. She is also trying to cloud the facts with a false statement;

lokisgal wrote:AOC has missed turns in multiple games and this started before we timed out....

Here is the timeline - Agents of Chaos in blue, Immoral Assassins in red
2011-07-02 05:45:04 - 300spartans ran out of time
2011-07-07 04:07:49 - JBoy ran out of time
2011-07-07 16:41:30 - Namor missed a turn
2011-07-08 04:07:49 - regan the great missed a turn
2011-07-08 11:10:38 - Qyu missed a turn
2011-07-09 14:18:38 - regan the great missed a turn
2011-07-09 03:53:30 - JustCallMeStupid ran out of time

what is at question here is whether or not intentionally timing out to avoid carding is a cheap tactic and not one that a top clan should employ, loophole or not. If public opinion or an authoritative ruling should dictate that it is indeed fair and allowed, then so be it. But, until then, that is the topic.

Deflecting to missed turns in defense of such a tactic is a little pathetic. and trying to offset this discussion with attacks on people's inability to show up for a turn, when we have players TAKING their turns, but not finishing them is equally pathetic...

it's a sad day for this site and cc clandom when this kind of junk infects a challenge.

mkcummins wrote:what is at question here is whether or not intentionally timing out to avoid carding is a cheap tactic and not one that a top clan should employ, loophole or not. If public opinion or an authoritative ruling should dictate that it is indeed fair and allowed, then so be it. But, until then, that is the topic.

Deflecting to missed turns in defense of such a tactic is a little pathetic. and trying to offset this discussion with attacks on people's inability to show up for a turn, when we have players TAKING their turns, but not finishing them is equally pathetic...

it's a sad day for this site and cc clandom when this kind of junk infects a challenge.

Agreed. Deliberate use of cheap tactics in a clan game, especially in the league final, is disgraceful. IA played the whole season and play-offs wonderfully or they wouldn't be in this position. Now to use a site glitch to gain tactical advantage is sad. Loki did well to stand up for the right in the beginning, but certainly turned tail quickly to back her clan's actions. That too is sad. Leadership means making the tough decisions and standing for what is right even if it hurts you in the process.

I echo Namor's thoughts on quitting CC. I've been in the long drawn out process of retirement now for a few months. What I've seen from top clans recently with regards to cheap tactics makes my decision that much easier. These kinds of discussions shouldn't even have to take place. Clans without honor should be stripped of their clan and those players using cheap tactics banned from participating in a clan.

Lubawski wrote:

mkcummins wrote:what is at question here is whether or not intentionally timing out to avoid carding is a cheap tactic and not one that a top clan should employ, loophole or not. If public opinion or an authoritative ruling should dictate that it is indeed fair and allowed, then so be it. But, until then, that is the topic.

Deflecting to missed turns in defense of such a tactic is a little pathetic. and trying to offset this discussion with attacks on people's inability to show up for a turn, when we have players TAKING their turns, but not finishing them is equally pathetic...

it's a sad day for this site and cc clandom when this kind of junk infects a challenge.

Agreed. Deliberate use of cheap tactics in a clan game, especially in the league final, is disgraceful. IA played the whole season and play-offs wonderfully or they wouldn't be in this position. Now to use a site glitch to gain tactical advantage is sad. Loki did well to stand up for the right in the beginning, but certainly turned tail quickly to back her clan's actions. That too is sad. Leadership means making the tough decisions and standing for what is right even if it hurts you in the process.

I echo Namor's thoughts on quitting CC. I've been in the long drawn out process of retirement now for a few months. What I've seen from top clans recently with regards to cheap tactics makes my decision that much easier. These kinds of discussions shouldn't even have to take place. Clans without honor should be stripped of their clan and those players using cheap tactics banned from participating in a clan.

How can any honourable clan hope to plan a campaign in a competition that allows this sort of cheating. It doesn't matter if this particular loophole is fixed or covered by the rules, for future competitions, because there is always going to be another loophole to be found. The only hope we have, is to expect every clan to stick to a code of conduct and the unwritten rules.

Let's not kid ourselves that any of us are far superior players to everyone else. At the end of the day, when 2 top-tier clans meet, they have pretty much a 50/50 chance of victory. We hope to increase our odds by choosing a map that we feel our strategy will give us an edge, over the oppositions lack of XP, on said map. But once they have done the same, it really just comes down to the luck of the dice, drop and first turn. But those odds can swing well beyond the 50/50 mark, if one clan are prepared to use cheap tactics. AoC are under no illusions that we are a better clan than our earlier opponents Empire & KoRT, we consider ourselves to be their equal and just happened to get a little more luck than they did, on the day... we beat them because they played an honest game.

What makes this really sad and depressing, is that most of IA played a blinder and would likely have won this without the cheating. In the end though, they have made any victory they may gain, a hollow one... poor show.

Eyestone wrote:

FarangDemon wrote:

Eyestone wrote:

Master Fenrir wrote:I'm rooting for IA, but I fear the legendary AoC dice...

Yup. It's even stronger now that it has been changed to women's footballs. We are huge on female soccer Just like how Norway demolished the dreaded Equatorial Guinea by 1-0 last night. They toyed with them up until the 87th minute before scoring the decisive goal. That's how we will toy with The Assissans in this challenge

While you are toying with the Assissans, four shiv-wielding figures congeal out of the blackness to assassinate you... and then meld back into the shadows

How inapropriate! I'm only armed with my dice...

if a man with no arms has a gun, is he armed?

Seulessliathan wrote:

Eyestone wrote:Details of the incidence are as follows:

show: Incident

You missed to mention that your mate regan missed/skipped his turn in 3rd Crusade. I am always a fan of telling the whole story. I don´t say this would legitimate running out of time, i just believe it´s always better not to hide such details which might be important too. Skipped turns can be considered cheap tactics too, and since you guys already discuss this subject, it doesn´t seem to be very likely that nobody was able to sit for regan (i don´t say you skipped it on purpose, but it looks like in this situation, of course it can still be a normal missed turn)

To the topic:
I have heard this discussion more then once before, and usually more people tend to agree with Eyestone/AOC about this, but others say , if the system still allows it, it must be a feature.
IMO CC mechanics should be changed in that way that you get a card after you conquered/bombed ter in your turn, no matter if you end your turn or not. Would be a suprise if that has never been suggested in Suggestion Forum, perhaps someone who has seen it there can tell us what was the reason to decide against it, or tell us that they plan it soon.

I think this should be discussed, and if CC doesn´t change the mechanics, then clans should consider to make a gentleman rule about this. All Clans would have to agree to this rule if playing League or CC Cup, in clan wars both clans can discuss it.
In case majority considers this a feature, then we should let every clan know that it´s fine to run out of time.

idk if anyone has answered this yet as most clan players dont play freestyle, but a change to that rule would effect freestyle for the worse which is probably why the mechanics have not changed and wont unless there is a way to divide them between different game types. Clans...especially top clans should be better than this though.

Namor wrote:...this has just about ended my enjoyment of this fucking shitty site. There is way to much bickering and cheating, i don't really enjoy it any more. I'm fairly certain that I will quit, after these games.

Amazing. It seems like every week there's another OG who shares this sentiment.

goooooooooooooooo Zizooooooooooooooooooooooo