[ACC] The All Comers Cup - Final

Finished challenges between two competitive clans.

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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby BoganGod on Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:54 am

A few people have mentioned a full schedule, and no "hole" in the clan year..... I would have thought was pretty self evident that this is designed as a quick clan event. Unlike pretty much every other multi clan event in the CC calendar. There is not an onerous game load. Established clans get recognition without getting a free pass.

Would be a lot easier if the yanks had a clue about english soccer... :roll: lovo don't know why your being so negative. This is not intended to steal tofu/empire's thunder(throwing tofu in there as chuuuuck has jumped ship there, and he is still sorting some of the CC cup).

Can understand why some of the more established clans don't have the balls to be in this, because the rounds are smaller, there is a larger element of luck. Less chance to grind out a boring victory. Pussies. How about people post in here if they wish to register.

Brethren of the Fat Mermaid. In please. Contacts GallantPellham, Draq, BoganGod, Ryno99

Know have already asked to be included. Just making it official by posting in thread.
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby shocked439 on Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:57 am

Seriously, why all tge negativity in the responses? If you want in and have the time to be in join and put it in your response. If you don't want in and don't have the time don't respond.

Why does every idea in the clan world have to be a 15 page bitch fest.

Looks like a great event and best of luck with it!
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby Teflon Kris on Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:32 am

sonicsteve wrote:
jpcloet wrote:3 rounds of byes for some teams? Why? That seems really excessive. Given the smaller set of games, I don't see the need.


I'm guessing the byes are there because It's loosely modelled on the English FA Cup, which is pictured in the thread.

Makes perfect sense to us English folk. :D

Some of the replies confirm that higher ranked clans dont want to play many events at once (although the call for one event at a time is extreme). :-)
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby lord voldemort on Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:16 pm

This looks just as long as the cc cup. Sure there are a few byes for the higher ranks. But there is still ideally 3 challenges of 50,60,60 games for the finals.
That requires research. You are looking at a 6-9 month tournament here...Its not as short as you think. Not to mention the shortest style of game 1v1 and dubs have the least representation.
Alot of clans choose long drawn out quads games, hive, conquermans etc....
It has nothing to do with empire...CC cup is an event ran by Chuuuuck (which he doesnt even want to run)
It has nothing to do with balls. It has to do with there are already established tournaments and competitions that are all year round. It is already difficult for most clans to then fit in regular challenges in between. We have already had one cancelled challenge this year.
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby Teflon Kris on Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:16 pm

Thanks for all your essays folks, and thanks most of all to the clans that have registered. Not sure if you are in PACK (sniper)?

I've marked some of the draft essays below - for further discussion I suggest a new thread maybe?


Suggestions
jpcloet makes a good point:

'Extra -Time'
The 3 extra time games could be played anyway, and only count if scores are otherwise equal. They would therefore start just after the regular games and not hold a tie up. Alternatively, the 'extra-time' idea could be swapped for a single quads tie-breaker game thrown in at the start of each tie.



Leehar made his point concisely:

1 v 1s
This could be increased to best-of-5 to ensure a greater skill requirement.
Combining his other point about more focus on doubles, how about this as a minor amendment to cover both points:

1 v 1s are best-of-4. Winner gains 1 point. If there is a 2-2 draw then neither clan gains a point.




Feel free to make further suggestions for minor tinkering, especially if you are joining.


And feel free to register without an essay.


show: Draft Essay Marking
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby jigger1986 on Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:40 pm

Grim Reapers would like to join.

(and no sniper is not a member, he is with The Pack now)
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby Teflon Kris on Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:56 pm

Thanks for joining jigger
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby aaronvollrath on Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:10 pm

General Brock II wrote:Count in the 1st Regiment of Foot Guards! :D

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if the the ggs are in, then we are in, too!

in please:

the fantastic four-skins

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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby Jimmy V on Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:33 pm

Legends of the Zone are in.

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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby jefjef on Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:12 pm

KOA is in.

jefjef - MegasWoman - IcePack are contacts.
This post was made by jefjef who should be on your ignore list.
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby fixitman4 on Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:00 pm

kk read the rules

Thanks
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby eddie2 on Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:33 am

DJ Teflon wrote:

Leehar made his point concisely:

1 v 1s
This could be increased to best-of-5 to ensure a greater skill requirement.
Combining his other point about more focus on doubles, how about this as a minor amendment to cover both points:

1 v 1s are best-of-4. Winner gains 1 point. If there is a 2-2 draw then neither clan gains a point.




Feel free to make further suggestions for minor tinkering, especially if you are joining.



hum if you are running this along the lines of the english football league/cups.

would it not be better to follow there point system as well 3. points for a win 1 point each for a tie. and if the challenge ends tied the team who has the most points in away games wins the challenge. just a thought im happy with whatever you do.
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby Leehar on Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:04 am

Then also, my main worry right now is an echo of Lovo's sentiments, in that you do say it's meant to be a small event, but it does seem prohibitively large, yet still somehow not large enough if you get my drift. Basically, It's still a huge number of games at 20 from the first round all the way to 36 for the last in comparison to the normal Clan League meetings. And then in comparison to the Cup, where each set should be capable of earning medals in a 40+ game encounter, here we have a lot of smaller matchups that will give an eventual medal at the end of a minimum of 102 games for the higher ranks. Idk, for me personally this just doesn't serve as enough of an incentive in that the games are short enough to not be completely a true enough test of ability in a 40+ encounter or with medal eligibility, and yet they are long enough to not be similar enough to the clan league where you can have fun short encounters against new clans in a (albeit not fully yet) league format.
So Idk, those are just my concerns in that it seems to miss out on the best of both worlds instead of catering for both and that it still requires significant effort to commit yet doesn't really have enough of the incentive over other avenues.

With regards to Nemesis participation, I've raised it for us to discuss, and I'm still in two-minds since I was all for an event like this for all of us not currently involved in clan competitions, but unsure if we'd be better off just playing clan challenges instead...
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby BoganGod on Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:51 am

Leehar wrote:Then also, my main worry right now is an echo of Lovo's sentiments, in that you do say it's meant to be a small event, but it does seem prohibitively large, yet still somehow not large enough if you get my drift. Basically, It's still a huge number of games at 20 from the first round all the way to 36 for the last in comparison to the normal Clan League meetings. And then in comparison to the Cup, where each set should be capable of earning medals in a 40+ game encounter, here we have a lot of smaller matchups that will give an eventual medal at the end of a minimum of 102 games for the higher ranks. Idk, for me personally this just doesn't serve as enough of an incentive in that the games are short enough to not be completely a true enough test of ability in a 40+ encounter or with medal eligibility, and yet they are long enough to not be similar enough to the clan league where you can have fun short encounters against new clans in a (albeit not fully yet) league format.
So Idk, those are just my concerns in that it seems to miss out on the best of both worlds instead of catering for both and that it still requires significant effort to commit yet doesn't really have enough of the incentive over other avenues.

With regards to Nemesis participation, I've raised it for us to discuss, and I'm still in two-minds(and you still can't make either one up can ya) since I was all for an event like this for all of us not currently involved in clan competitions, but unsure if we'd be better off just playing clan challenges instead...


For guuds sakk mattte. Shuit or geet offf the poott allreadyy. You saffa's can't make your minds up, and love sharing your indecisiveness with all. Rather than piss around and moan about what this is, or isn't. How big or not big enough it is.... noticing a theme here, a decidedly phallic one.... Lets take it as. Nemesis, still deciding whether they have a pair between them. See easy to write, eh? :roll: :lol: :lol:

9clans have registered so far, and some of them have done so without a protracted and agonizing attempt at thinking aloud in thread. =D>
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby Leehar on Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:02 pm

BoganGod wrote:9clans have registered so far, and some of them have done so without a protracted and agonizing attempt at thinking aloud in thread. =D>

Yes, and the most common theme is that all of them with the exception of you as hosts were formed within the last year and are still at the back end of most ladders? For gathering mid-rank clans at the least, you don't seem to have done such a great job?
All I'm worried about is trying to make it more appealing for the rest of us, which obviously hasn't happened. I just put down my thoughts about why that could be so.
Rather than negativity, I'm just trying to find a way to make it more inclusive than it seems to be right now, and for that more than just dehumanizing me and my clan for making my comments, why can't we try and find out why clans like bss, legion, aod, bpb, g1, dyn and even myth (despite shocked's sentiments) etc aren't clamoring at the door to join this, since I would assume they're the ones an event like this should be shooting for - rather than the ones you currently have who I suspect aren't as aware of what exactly they're getting into...
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby FarangDemon on Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:10 pm

While I understand Leehar's points, I like how this is slightly more games per war than CL. This should reduce upsets due to luck. Clan medals are not a concern for me, and I would guess that the more competitive clannies are not concerned with their accrual either.

Some highly competitive clans might want to pick and choose relatively fewer events so that they can concentrate more on each one, which is their prerogative. But that means there could be an opportunity for the highest-skilled of the ambitious clans to distinguish themselves by winning a "Grand Slam" by attempting all events (CL, CC and ACC) and winning or making it to the finals/semifinals/quarterfinals of each.

We'll see who ends up joining, it's been just 2 days....

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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby Teflon Kris on Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:59 pm

That was a wicked post Farang, thanks, you summed things up nicely.

Following some of the earlier comments, some relucatance (so far) from higher clans and discussions with officials, there are a couple of amendments to be made, and I will be re-drafting the format a little later on today.

The format was aimed at engcouraging all clans that feel they could manage an extra commitment. As Farang point out, each round is intended to run more quickly than a full-on war or cc tie but have less of a luck element than a CL tie. Of course, CL involves a double-round-robin in effect, so reducing luck elements overall. Had I made each round similar to a CL tie then I feel all of the higher ranked clans would have already ruled themselves out, and possible many of those aspiring that way.

As for BofM 'hosting' the tournament, I am running this as an individual, and kind of hoping that my TD role will give people a bit of confidence that I have the commitment to make this work and can run things in an organised manner. I would be extremely happy if anyone from another clan were to get involved with organising with me, especially as this would confirm neutrality in organising. Bogan is supporting the idea, not because I am hosting for my clan but because he represents an interested clan and wants to see lots of participation.

The main idea is to get plenty of clans on-board, give the majority of clans (that are currently involved in just the odd war) another serious challenge, and to use an-FA-cup-like system to encourahe higher-ranked clans get involved and give them some breathing space whilst they are still involved in the CC. The game numbers are aimed at getting a balance between duration, skill and luck and commitments (so that clans with plenty of members would feel that they could easily have enough players to be able to join and keep to their existing plans).

Hopefully amendments to the proposed structure will still reflect all this as well as being more realistic about the potential number of clans that might register. I'll try to give some indications about duration although this is obviously a tricky endeavour with no strong guarantees.

As Farang says, its only been a couple of days, so I will post a registration end date in the first post - there is still plenty of time to consider for those who are undecided and I didn#t intend to throw a big idea at everyone and demand instant decisions or approval. A big factor for many decision -makers will be who, and how many clans enter and a clearer picture of how the final format will look in detail - we will get closer, starting in a couple of hours time ;)

So, watch this space. :)
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby alt1978 on Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:53 pm

I think this thing is a great idea and we could care less about the medals. Set up the match-ups how you see fit and we'll fill the games. While we are new...we have a pretty good idea about what we are getting into here...and what we are getting into is something that just sounds plain fun. The worst that happens is a bunch of fat mermaids slap us around...and being married...that really isn't all that much of a change of pace.
Great job setting this up.

Count the Pig Renters in.

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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby Teflon Kris on Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:19 am

First Post amended with a few minor changes. Hopefully these are improvements and may help clans make their decision and clarify some issues:

Format and Dates

    Proposed format has been amended given that a full quota of clans are unlikely to enter. However, it is hoped that we will get somewhere near the 32 clans in the format example and diagram (I know this may seem optimistic at this point in time).

    Dates should give an indication that most clans have the ecessary resources to cope with this tournament, the end of the CC and the start of the CL, and possibly other clan wars.

    Note - player usage rules mean that clans do not need / have to use a huge number of players, therefore enabling larger clans to maintain other commitments and priorities.

Tie-Breakers - Extra-Time
    The tried -and-tested one-game tie-breaker replaces the 'extra time' idea - therefore ensuring ties are not delayed.

Rankings / Byes
    To reduce excessive amounts of byes, there will now be 3-tiers of clans. 4 spaces will be allocated to higher-ranking clans. Clans progressing to the CC 2 Semi-Finals take priority for these places. Clans in the quarter-Finals of the CC have a bye through round 1. The format therefore provides breathing space for any clans entering that are still competing in the Conqueror's Cup.


1 v 1 Bouts
    This has been changed to best-of-4 with both clans having 2 'home' games in each bout. If scores are 2-2 then neither clan scores a point.

Feel free to PM me or post any questions, whichever you feel is best (any PM'd questions that are useful to all, I will post here anyway).
Last edited by Teflon Kris on Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby Leehar on Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:35 am

Sorry to keep raising nonsensical issues, specially since I was the one to point out the 1v1's earlier. But if 3 of the 1v1's are tied and only 1 is won by a clan (or 1 tied, 3 won), and then the other clan wins the tiebreaker, would we not get back to a situation of a tied round? #-o
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby Teflon Kris on Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:07 pm

Leehar wrote:Sorry to keep raising nonsensical issues, specially since I was the one to point out the 1v1's earlier. But if 3 of the 1v1's are tied and only 1 is won by a clan (or 1 tied, 3 won), and then the other clan wins the tiebreaker, would we not get back to a situation of a tied round? #-o


I think this may be in the first post update but happy to clarify ...

If 3 of the 1 v 1s are drawn / tied and the other won by one of the clans then that clan scores 1 point from 1 v 1s. If scores are equal from all other games then that clan wins and the tie-breaker game isn't relevant as there is no tie to break.

I understand the confusion as in CC and other wars the 'tie-breaker' isn't no such thing, it is the 43rd game (or whatever number) and no diffrent from other games in value (apart from being preset as opposed to selected as a 'home' game by one clan or other). They should really be called neutral games.

In this tournament the 'tie breaker' is exactly what it says on the tin - it may as well not exist if there is no tie to break. For time purposes we'll play them all anyway (as per jpcloet's point, if we wait until there is a draw / tie then start them, we would have another week or two or three to wait).

;)
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby chemefreak on Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:12 pm

All-

From a clan leader and CD point of view...we can never have too many clan events. This one will probably qualify as a tournament. Privs will most likely be granted for players like in the CLA (this is still under discussion). Once everything is finalized we would encourage the Tournament Organizer to contact the CDs to discuss priv and medal specifics. As a tournament, most likely medals will only go to the winner. However, if there are too many byes for top ranked clans that might even become an issue.

At this point, keep up the good work, get your clans together and finalize your format based on who you get. Then contact the CDs to discuss some points before you "start". Don't get discouraged by the doubters :D BTW, the Legion is considering this tournament. We will see based on current load with lots of people on vacation whether we can participate.

Cheers.
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby Lindax on Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:18 pm

chemefreak wrote:All-

From a clan leader and CD point of view...we can never have too many clan events. This one will probably qualify as a tournament. Privs will most likely be granted for players like in the CLA (this is still under discussion). Once everything is finalized we would encourage the Tournament Organizer to contact the CDs to discuss priv and medal specifics. As a tournament, most likely medals will only go to the winner. However, if there are too many byes for top ranked clans that might even become an issue.

At this point, keep up the good work, get your clans together and finalize your format based on who you get. Then contact the CDs to discuss some points before you "start". Don't get discouraged by the doubters :D BTW, the Legion is considering this tournament. We will see based on current load with lots of people on vacation whether we can participate.

Cheers.


From a Tournament Director point of view: Wouldn't one want to have the privileges, medals issues and "a finalized format" solved before one even asks participants to sign up? Or, form the other perspective: Wouldn't one want those issues solved before one signs up?

Seems a bit like putting the horse behind the carriage here....

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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby Teflon Kris on Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:40 pm

Lindax wrote:
chemefreak wrote:All-

From a clan leader and CD point of view...we can never have too many clan events. This one will probably qualify as a tournament. Privs will most likely be granted for players like in the CLA (this is still under discussion). Once everything is finalized we would encourage the Tournament Organizer to contact the CDs to discuss priv and medal specifics. As a tournament, most likely medals will only go to the winner. However, if there are too many byes for top ranked clans that might even become an issue.

At this point, keep up the good work, get your clans together and finalize your format based on who you get. Then contact the CDs to discuss some points before you "start". Don't get discouraged by the doubters :D BTW, the Legion is considering this tournament. We will see based on current load with lots of people on vacation whether we can participate.

Cheers.


From a Tournament Director point of view: Wouldn't one want to have the privileges, medals issues and "a finalized format" solved before one even asks participants to sign up? Or, form the other perspective: Wouldn't one want those issues solved before one signs up?

Seems a bit like putting the horse behind the carriage here....

Lx


Exactly what I am thinking - various format options being prepared over next 24 hours in order to see what formats would or wouldn't gain approval.

Maybe this case may create some loose advice re. clan tournament design etc.?

Anyway, main thing is to get some of these issues ironed out in the short-term rather than leaving too many questions hanging.

:)
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Re: The All Comers Cup [ACC] - Open for Registration

Postby FarangDemon on Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:17 am

I think even if only around 50% of the top-ranked clans join, it would still be enough to seem a highly competitive event to me. This is because I think they are all pretty good. To provide a parallel, during CL3 sign-ups, in the end, nearly every top-ranked clan joined. But well before all of those signed up, I was already feeling like enough had joined to legitimize the event as highly competitive.

Leehar did have another good point which I did not fully address with the "Grand Slam" concept, that top clans that would feel overloaded from joining ACC in addition to CC and CL may instead prefer to join regular wars, so they can control the timing of games to ensure there is no event overlap. This is because if they are overloaded, their performance will suffer, as the top clans generally spend a lot of time analyzing and communicating before taking turns. If their performance suffers, they are going to end up lower in the ranking.

One way to provide a further incentive for higher-ranked clans to join would be to create a separate ranking that only includes clans that have competed in all three events (CL, CC and ACC). I would not want this to replace the ranking that includes all clans regardless, because I don't think we want to force clan members to commit more time to CC than they already want to. So this ranking would be provided alongside the other one, to provide an indicator of the highest-skilled among the aggressive clans. I use the term aggressive because these clans are engaging in every opportunity for war.

It may be possible that some of the higher-ranked clans would decide to compete for this goal rather than to top the regular ratings list. And this additional ranking would also provide a goal for any clan with a different philosophy than would be required to make it to the top of the regular ratings list. Would be great to recognize excellence among clans of both philosophies.
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