[CC3] IA vs. HH - [23-18] - Final 7/1

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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [16-12]

Postby tec805 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:12 am

Keefie wrote:Yes I did finally snap and call one of IA's players a 'fuckwit' and referred to him as 'numbnuts' in response to his continuous idiotic comments and bad sportsmanship.


Uh-oh... comments like that against IA members can cost you a clan medal... if you won... :-$
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [16-13]

Postby Keefie on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:29 am

Master Fenrir, I appreciate your comments but cannot disagree with them more.

If this had been a regular war I doubt very much that I would have employed the tactics that I did. Seeing as this is a knockout competition I really don't see any issue with a team trying to maximise their chances of winning and thus advancement to the next round. You and I both know that this was our only chance of achieving that.

You say that the clan world has worked hard to reduce the 'luck' factor from clan wars. Mmmmm, I must say that maybe it's the top clans who have lobbied the hardest to achieve this in order that they remain at the top. HH have done nothing wrong. We have played by the rules of the competition, so any objection to the tactics we have employed is just sour grapes. It is the right of every clan to negociate the terms of a clan war, including the exclusion of certain maps. IA chose not to do this, so every map out there was available to us.

All the best
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [14-10]

Postby freakns on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:32 am

ahunda wrote:Well, you know, Keefie, quite honestly: When I saw your map selection for the first round, I certainly would have liked to tell you to f*ck off.

The only thing I found more ridiculous & disappointing than your map selection were people from other clans coming into this thread & applauding you for it, encouraging you (and maybe other clans) to pull that kind of BS in the future too. I would have liked to tell them to f*ck off too.

Now obviously not everybody in IA has the self-constraint, that I have, and some of our members gave you sh*t for your choice in Game Chat. I consider it an achievement, that we haven´t given you sh*t over all this thread & turned this into a bloody flame fest, because you would have deserved it.

are you serious?! :o
im the first one pointed out on this thread that i hope HH lose every single of their home map due to the ridiculous map selection, but it is within their rights to do so! and you are talking about IA showing class?!
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true class act that beersurfer. if he made that comment against me or anyone else from my clan... well, you can imagine how i would react... and then in same time you and yellow posting gg comments. im guessing when you won, suddenly game become good. as one of the oldest and most respected clans you should be the one showing class... and calling ppl idiots just because of their map selection is everything but class. you guys should be ashamed of yourself, not HH.

@Keefie, you guys have winning on their home maps and act respectful while doing so. you guys have made a name for yourself in this clan war, no matter what IA is saying. i dont like your map selection, i said it more then once but its within your rights, so i dont see a problem here. as i said, id always take 50/50 chance on away maps and then take care on my home maps. and as far as i can see, its 7-5 IA on their home maps, the ones that... i dunno... requires incredible amount of skill? well, i guess they were lucky you guys chose skillles maps, otherwise they might lost thios war...
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [16-13]

Postby Keefie on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:47 am

I wasn't going to name anyone but since the main culprit has just been outed by Freakns then here's another comment from yesterday.

Game 11152614

Great response from Snuden though =D>
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [16-13]

Postby snuden on Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:15 am

My comment was meant in jest against the childish language directed at us and NOT against his teammates who have, as far as I am concerned, been really good sports throughout.
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [16-13]

Postby allinpoker1980 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:55 am

If you buy into the CC clan scene, then you understand the strides that have been taken to make wars as fair and as skill-based as possible. Think about it: no speed, no freestyle, no nukes, no beta, unlimited restrictions, and the 12 hour fog rule. All of those rules seek to eliminate or reduce the luck factor as best as possible so that the outcome of a war reflects clan skill and team strategy as often as possible. This is known.





Tactics like this are used all the time when a team in outgunned especially in competitive sports. Underdogs often slow down the tempo of the game to up the "luck factor" and stand a fighting chance. If you buy into the competitive nature of oh,.....I dont know professional anything then you understand the strides that have been taken to make comeptitive sports as skill-based as possible. Think about it, practices, high priced salaries, franchise tags, etc. However some of the greatest sports upsets in history are by teams who although outgunned, deal with the rules given, and find a way to maximize their odds for just long enough that they may be able to squeak out a win. To somehow suggest this tactic is ok and even admired in teams playing with hundreds of millions of dollars on the line and somehow looked down upon for a competitive board game is just crazy.
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [16-13]

Postby ahunda on Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:41 am

Well. My apology was meant to quell the fire, and I didn´t want to post on the issue anymore, but since freakns addressed me directly, I´ll just have to reply once more.

Though I don´t think, this discussion will lead to anything. We all know & understand, what HH did here, and why they did it. And I want to thank Master Fenrir for summing this up better than I could hope to, especially this part:

Master Fenrir wrote:I just don't really understand why you seem so surprised that a couple of gamechats ended up less than friendly. You said, "All because I pointed out in an earlier post that two of his clan mates had soured the experience for us." That's kind of a weird thing to say when your map choice could have conceivably soured the experience for every IA player.

That is pretty much spot on. We know, HH were within the rules & within their rights to choose the maps they did. We just didn´t like it, didn´t appreciate it, and we do not respect it. This challenge had turned sour for us, before the first game was filled. So Keefies complaint about us making a couple of games an unpleasant experience for them kind of made me snap ...

Keefie wrote:It is the right of every clan to negociate the terms of a clan war, including the exclusion of certain maps. IA chose not to do this, so every map out there was available to us.

This is just wrong, and you know it. This challenge follows the rules of the Conquerors Cup, and we are not free to negotiate terms freely. You rejected the Fog Courtesy rule for this challenge (and we had to suck it up or walk away), and now you make it sound, as if we only had to ask to exclude certain maps & you´d have agreed to it ?

As for freakns:

I am not sure, if I should be glad or not, that you chose that particular game as your example. The Sydney Quad was one of the most gratifying wins I´ve ever taken part in here @ CC. And in this specific case, I´d have to say: Yes, as a matter of fact, it was dice, that almost killed us in the early rounds of the game (us losing 9v2 attacks, them winning 7v1,2,1,3 - I am sure, all of us have had games like that happen to them), and it was pretty flawless team-play, that brought us back & in the end won the game for us.

It is the one game, that I truly enjoyed in this challenge. The one game, that will stick out as a memorable experience. One of the games, that make it worth playing @ CC (amidst all too many one-sided dice fests). And in my opinion, one of the games as clan challenges should be: Lots of strategising & planning & discussing involved. The complete & exact opposite of a Doodle Quad.

When I joined IA, clans were mostly a business of the real hardcore CC addicts & veteran team players. It was the place, where the toughest competition was to be had, because you were always up against well-tuned teams, who played together regularly. And that was, what people were aiming for in these days: The tough competition, a real competition of skill.

I was part of CLA, when the set-up for CLA League 2 was discussed, when the first guidelines for clan challenges & clan medals were discussed, and all these discussions always centered a good deal on the question how to minimise the luck factor and make it all a competition of skill at the game. Maybe things have changed since then, I myself took a break from CC for almost 2 years, but for me Doodle Quads have no place in a clan challenge.

Now to the question of respect: As pointed out by freakns, HH have been doing pretty well on our home maps. They had us on the brink of defeats on maps like Sydney, Poison Rome, Supermax & Third Crusade, and they won a good deal of games on the old school Risk style maps, and yes, that is something, that I can acknowledge & respect.

But sadly this is not, what I will remember them & this challenge for. For me, this entire challenge is over-shadowed by their map selection, and I will forever remember it as the "Doodle challenge", and that simply kills all respect, that HH could have gained here otherwise (frankly speaking: looking at their performance in some of these games, I don´t even understand, why they felt the need to choose those ridiculous maps, and that is about the nicest thing I can say at this point).

As for beer: He is known as a notorious dice complainer, and this has caused some ruckus in earlier IA challenges already. He at one point offered to leave the clan, if we were concerned about him damaging our reputation, but we decided to stick with him and accept some bad rep in return. Now I personally don´t have a problem with Keefie (or other players) calling beer out. Throw a "dice whining fuckwit" & "numbnuts" in his face right there in Game Chat, and you won´t hear me complain about it. But making this the central issue of this here clan challenge ?

At one point in the first round it looked like HH would take a 12-8 or 13-7 lead at half time, and apart from beer (who always complains) not a single IA member complained or showed any disrespect or ill feeling towards HH, not one. Not in Chat in any of the games, not here in the thread. And it continued like this, and we just played the games, and we managed to turn around a couple of those games, and as it appears, we will probably now go on to win this challenge, if only by a very small margin.

And then Keefie comes into this thread and makes a post, that somehow puts us as a clan in a bad light. 8-9 challenges they have played, and they were all enjoyable & fun. But this here challenge was unpleasant for them, because of "completely unprovoked nasty, mean spirited remarks in game chat". Sorry. But to this I had to respond.

IA have played 11 or 12 challenges in their history, and none has been as unpleasant for us as this one. Not because of personal conduct of HH players in the games, not because of the result (IA has lost quite a few challenges before, including one real upset land-slide defeat at the hands of FOED), but because of ... ah, yes, we talked about that ...

We obviously have very different stand-points then. For me a bit of dice bitching is a minor annoyance, that can easily be ignored, whilst HHs map selection in this challenge in my eyes is a transgression against the spirit of clan competition, and yes, freakns, I am serious.

But I guess, everything that could be said has been said, and everybody will read & understand, whatever he wants to read & understand. From here on out I´ll simply up-date the scores, but not participate in this discussion anymore.

O:)
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [17-14]

Postby IcePack on Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:33 am

Can IA and HH fight about a dozen more wars this year? :D this has been great entertainemnt
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [17-14]

Postby freakns on Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:51 am

@Ahunda, you are nice guy, and i respect you because you always try to stay cool, and no matter how fired up are you about something youll try not to offend anyone. thats classy, for sure. but after beer took a dump on HH skills, whole IA lost right to stand on high moral ground and preach from there. so IA can bitch about map selection all night long, but everything you guys said is not "moral point of view" anymore, its just whining...
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [17-14]

Postby ahunda on Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:02 am

I am not trying to take the high ground & preach morals. As I said earlier, we probably would have sucked it up, let the whole thing slide and not started this discussion at all.

What got to me & made me snap, is Keefie taking the high ground & preaching morals here. And that I won´t take, not from a guy, who chooses Doodle Quads in a clan challenge & is smug about it.

If you think, that one player bitching around in Game Chat (I don´t know, where he took a dump on their skills. As far as I could see, he only took a dump on their choice of maps. And his usual dice nonsense.) is the real big deal here, then we simply disagree.
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [18-15]

Postby John Deere on Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:02 pm

After all this good reading, i had to see HH's home maps. And from what i looked at i noticed 3 maps that you dont normally see in clan wars. 3.... really, i would have thought almost all of them where quads on 20 region maps etc. I didnt study the selection so please let me know if i missed something, I dont get it.....
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [18-15]

Postby IcePack on Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:38 pm

John Deere wrote:After all this good reading, i had to see HH's home maps. And from what i looked at i noticed 3 maps that you dont normally see in clan wars. 3.... really, i would have thought almost all of them where quads on 20 region maps etc. I didnt study the selection so please let me know if i missed something, I dont get it.....


I'm inclined to agree...there aren't many here that are out of the ordinary and I find it kinda funny anyone would take this much offense to a handful of "flip a coin" maps from your opponents home map.

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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [16-13]

Postby Keefie on Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:50 pm

ahunda wrote:
Keefie wrote:It is the right of every clan to negociate the terms of a clan war, including the exclusion of certain maps. IA chose not to do this, so every map out there was available to us.

This is just wrong, and you know it. This challenge follows the rules of the Conquerors Cup, and we are not free to negotiate terms freely. You rejected the Fog Courtesy rule for this challenge (and we had to suck it up or walk away), and now you make it sound, as if we only had to ask to exclude certain maps & you´d have agreed to it ?


Take a look at the AoC-1st Regt war. They agreed extra rules which included the exclusion of certain maps, so yes, you only had to ask.

As for the fog rule it's optional. HH are not used to playing it, infact the majority of clan wars don't seem to use it. I was worried that if I said yes to it some mistakes would be made that would cost us games. I do believe that it was observed in the vast majority of games.

Oh and please can you clarify where I have been smug ?
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [16-13]

Postby ahunda on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:16 pm

Keefie wrote:Take a look at the AoC-1st Regt war. They agreed extra rules which included the exclusion of certain maps, so yes, you only had to ask.

Well, the thought would not have occured to me. Before this challenge I simply could not have imagined a clan choosing such maps. We´ll make a point of it in future challenges.

Keefie wrote:As for the fog rule it's optional. HH are not used to playing it, infact the majority of clan wars don't seem to use it. I was worried that if I said yes to it some mistakes would be made that would cost us games. I do believe that it was observed in the vast majority of games.

No complaints here.

Keefie wrote:Oh and please can you clarify where I have been smug ?

2012-05-10 03:16:37 - Keefie: I think my map choices show that I was probably respecting IA's abilities too much.
2012-05-10 03:17:32 - Keefie: Still for a top clan like yourselves the map shouldn't matter too much ;) hehehe

I asked a native English speaker, if "smug" was the right word, and the answer was: "Yeah, I think, he´s been very smug about it throughout."

But it´s ok. I´m out of here. I´m feeling completely disoriented. When I showed the 1st set of HH games to our clan and some friends in other clans, without any comment, all reactions were the same: Wtf ? Are you serious ? Are these guys for real ? I can´t believe, they would pull a stunt like that ...

Now it appears I landed in a parallel universe, where people perceive things very differently. It´s fine though. I´ll meditate on our wrong-doings & wish everybody here good luck in whatever games & challenges they are playing ...
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [18-15]

Postby fishydance on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:32 pm

I vote for having a rematch to settle this dispute once and for all. It should be a Doodle Quad War.
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