Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - LOW Champions

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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby jpcloet on Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:38 pm

Also advised not to give out game details to all players. Limit to those who need to join. Some good advice for the handbook me thinks.
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby Bones2484 on Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:06 pm

jpcloet wrote:I can't believe we have to rehash this. Regardless of the "bug" you still sent 4 players to that game. As I've suggested before, your method for communicating games and who gets what is lacking if you can manage to put 4 players in a trips game. Given your group is full of TO's, your clan more than most should know better.


You only have to rehash this because you gave us bullshit excuses and now it's affecting the final standings. I told you this before, and it still stands, but that joke of a "ruling" (especially after MarVal told us it would be ok to remake - see below) completely ruined the fun atmosphere of this whole league. Afterwards we realized that this is serious business and we had no interest in taking part anymore... but since we signed up, we figured we'd finish so that we wouldn't ruin all the planning by so many people.

And you clearly have no idea how we do signups. I didn't "send 4 players to that game". It may be hard to believe, but I don't have the time to go game by game and assign 20+ players into each one while making sure everyone is happy. In fact, I posted MarVal's entire message to our clan because we use open sign ups. If you want to tell us how to "assign" people to games feel free to join our clan and take over leadership, but we prefer to keep it fun and open instead of serious. Regardless of who is in our clan, we can't help it if two people join at the same time (after both checked for an opening) and the site assigned someone to the wrong team. Especially when not a single person knew this bug existed. If I knew, I would have removed the auto-join links myself (which MarVal decided to do after this problem kept appearing).

MarVal wrote:If both clans agree, I'm willing to make a new game.

And yes, this will be the last time, I added auto-join, more problems with it. To bad.

Grtz
Marv


But let's break down your original denial message of MarVal offering to remake the game:

jpcloet wrote:It is a default. Players need to be more careful in joining games. Plus the fact is 4 players either knew how to get in or were invited.

Secondly, one of the reasons for not making extra games is to ensure that the tournament stats are as accurate as possible to name the all-stars.

J


Sure, players do need to be more careful. But the fact remains that RB checked the game. There was a spot open. When he went to use the auto-join (that was provided by the mod) it assigned him automatically to the wrong team. You later went on to tell us it was an isolated incident which it clearly wasn't. It had already happened a few weeks prior in the Clan League (and a week later) so obviously other clans do sign ups the same way we do.

And secondly... preserving stats!? Who gives a shit? Wouldn't fair competition/scoring be more important than a meaningless "atta boy"for which player had the best record?

jpcloet wrote:Also advised not to give out game details to all players. Limit to those who need to join. Some good advice for the handbook me thinks.


If you have the time and desire to want to control every move your clanmates make.

The previous poster had it right, just don't use auto-join until this is fixed.
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby jpcloet on Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:24 pm

Giving out all the details to everyone is just asking for it, so you assume the risk by doing that. Your post is such an exaggeration. 1 game should not ruin the experience, so I'm sorry if it did. Feel free to run the next league then if you feel you can do a better job or even sit the next one out if that 1 game and my ruling disturbs you that much.

AOD has signups and are not dictated. I just don't give the game numbers or pws until signup period is complete. I control information flow, not the players.
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby barterer2002 on Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:58 pm

jp, I think the problem here is that you are assuming that every clan should do things the way you do. That isn't to say that your way is wrong of course but the idea that those who don't do it your way are wrong and deserve a forfeit is just silly.
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby jpcloet on Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:01 pm

Is it so wrong to assume that clans can be bothered to look at the games and not put in 4 players in a trips game or to not join the wrong team.
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby Night Strike on Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:09 pm

jpcloet wrote:Is it so wrong to assume that clans can be bothered to look at the games and not put in 4 players in a trips game or to not join the wrong team.


When one obviously ignores what happened, then yes, it is wrong.
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby jpcloet on Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:16 pm

Wow, 1 game is such a big deal then eh.

Fine, prove to me with indisputable proof that RB entered into the game via the "site bug" and we'll have a rematch. Otherwise the evidence before us is that he joined the wrong team and was the 4th G1 member into the game.
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby GrimReaper. on Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:28 pm

JP can we please see an update for division 2b!
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby chemefreak on Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:39 pm

jpcloet wrote:Wow, 1 game is such a big deal then eh.

Fine, prove to me with indisputable proof that RB entered into the game via the "site bug" and we'll have a rematch. Otherwise the evidence before us is that he joined the wrong team and was the 4th G1 member into the game.


The rule says that you can't overfill a game. We used the auto-join feature early on in the season and someone accidentally joined the wrong game...we forfeited that one. So I stopped using the auto-join and went to having a 48 hour "sign-up" period and then pm'd the password and games to the appropriate players. I have even gone so far as to not post the game numbers anywhere until I ask them to join to avoid the forfeit. This "open sign-up" seems pretty lazy to me. In my opinion the forfeit should stand. jp has enough stuff to worry about with this thing. Why are you guys trying to make it hard for him by challenging a clearly valid rule? Bring it up as a fix for Season 3...next!
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby Chariot of Fire on Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:28 pm

The Autojoin function is actually an excellent feature of the site and undoubtedly helps expedite the joining of games by team mates once the initial party has either made the game or has joined the opposing team. We've never had a single glitch with it, have used it since Day 1, and have played an extraordinary amount of team games in CLA, TLO and four challenges since September - so it's hardly likely to be a glitch in the code.

We have witnessed mistakes being made by our opposition, where their system of posting the games to join is (presumably) simply to list them all in their clan forum with a password and say "Go ahead and join" or words to that effect, and (similarly to the case mentioned above) five players entered a trips game. Being the competitive bastard that I am I purposefully entered the 6th player and won the game by default. Serves them right for being disorganised.

To the best of my knowledge this season's CLA games have simply been set-up and posted to each clan rep - no invite function has ever emanated from the organisers - so how the members then join the games is purely down to the administrative capabilities of that clan and cannot be a fault levelled at the tourney organiser (am I wrong here?).

Mistakes can be made and even overlooked (e.g. a player joins on Team 1, realises he should be Team 2 but has already sent invites to team mates to join Team 1 but forgets to notify them to cancel that invite). Easily done...and easily forgotten, so there's usually a rational explanation as to why team members have ended-up on the wrong side. This is just one example.

I think JP should come in for a lot less criticism for merely trying to stick to the rules. I do however consider that if both teams agree to replay a game due to it having been forfeited by default then there should be tolerance for such a replay to go ahead, purely in the name of sportsmanship. Good luck with that.
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby Taurelias on Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:48 am

if it´s true that G1 only play for fun, i suggest they only play public fun games. Joining a league means to accept rules of that event, and the rules are only sending 3 players to a triple.
You don´t have the time for talking with each other and send only 3 players to a triple? Well, obviously you guys had the time to play that screwed game. If it´s really too much asked to organize these games, stay away from this event. Other option is to do that job like all the other clans do. They don´t organize these games because they are jobless or because they get paid for that. They do the job because it belongs to participate in such a tourney.
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby Fruitcake on Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:20 am

Whatever else any one says, this has brought an issue out into the open. The BpB clan did have a problem at the start of the season with this but have not had one since (purely because we spend a great deal of time ensuring each player gets a PM with only their games listed...which kind of makes a mockery of the whole time saving aspect but there you go). It is now apparant 2 other clans have had issues with the system and lost because of it. I am not saying it is a poor feature, or that I can think of anything better. What is patently obvious is that for 3, and maybe more, incidents to occur means there is something inherently wrong with way it is done.

In fact the Bandits spend a great deal more time avoiding the bloody stupid feature than we would ever save using it...but then I imagine this statement will bring the usual clutch of squawking from various members as they rush around saying 'get over it' or 'suck it up' or some such equivalent banal trite statement. Already I see the usual suspects lining up because Bones had the audacity and cheek to state an opinion on an event that has caused him to come into conflict.

I am sure jpc does do a lot of work on all this, but that doesn't mean or confirm that the system is infallible.

Lastly, for jpc to make the statement Wow, 1 game is such a big deal then eh. is not the wisest thing he has ever done, when the season end does actually depend on that one game.
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby jpcloet on Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:59 am

The playoffs may come down to 1 game but it is not that one game that matters, but all the other ones. I could randomly pick a game myself and tell you that you missed the playoffs due to dice in that game or the drop.

I'd also like to add the slippery slope argument. If I remake 1 game, others will ask for remakes and others have. That was also part of the original rule for not remaking games. "I forgot to order games this week, and can you change the random games to this..." When will people take accountability for their actions or lack thereof? We can talk about expanded playoffs for Season 3 later.
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby Timminz on Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:31 am

There are a few people here who should not be surprised in the least when the rod finally manages to wriggle itself free from their back end, and then turns to them and says, "f*ck you, tight ass!"

My opinion, on the other hand, is that I don't really care which clans make it through on their actual merits, and which make it through via other, less talented means. As long as the grand pubah can track his precious stats, without having to give any thought to outliers, or exceptions, then all is right with the world.
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby Bones2484 on Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:56 am

Timminz wrote:As long as the grand pubah can track his precious stats, without having to give any thought to outliers, or exceptions, then all is right with the world.


You know the ironic part, though?

In those games that BpB and G1 were forced to forfeit, BpB and G1 won the games. So the automatic stats are screwed up anyways unless jp "gives thought to outliers or exceptions".

Chariot of Fire wrote:so it's hardly likely to be a glitch in the code.


Wrong. The associated thread has been moved to the new "Bug Forum" meaning the mods designated it as a "glitch in the code". There have been multiple reports of this happening in that thread. Plus, it is easy to prove. Start up a triples game and send auto-join links to 4 players for the same team. The fourth player will automatically be assigned to the wrong team.

And Chariot, I'm not saying that this bug was caused by the clan mods. It's not their fault by any stretch of the imagination.

Fruitcake wrote:I am not saying it is a poor feature, or that I can think of anything better.


Eh, we've had no problems with merely not using the Auto Join feature when games are posted. It's worked for countless Clan Challenges, the first Clan League, and the second half of the second Clan League. Like I said before, if I ever get Auto Join links now I remove them before letting the clan decide who plays where.

jpcloet wrote:Wow, 1 game is such a big deal then eh.


Considering this entire league is coming down to "1 game" then yes, it is "such a big deal". I hope everyone realizes that I'm not arguing for the sake of G1. We've been out of the playoffs for quite a long time now. This only affects the BpB.

jpcloet wrote:Fine, prove to me with indisputable proof that RB entered into the game via the "site bug" and we'll have a rematch. Otherwise the evidence before us is that he joined the wrong team and was the 4th G1 member into the game.


Oh please. You know just as well as I do that there's no way to give you indisputable proof. But what is more likely? RB tried to join using the Auto Join that was given to him or he took the password and purposely joined the wrong team even though he saw his teammates on the other? Funny that you had no problem believing that the first happened at the time, but now that your prior excuses for a forfeit are ridiculed you change your stance.

Look, I don't think I can run the Clan League better than you. In fact, I know that I can't. All I'm saying is that shit can happen that is not the sole fault of the players and the rules should be overlooked for such situations. Not everything is black and white.
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby Masli on Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:16 am

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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby Masli on Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:16 am

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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby Masli on Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:18 am

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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby Masli on Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:19 am

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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby nagerous on Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:44 pm

Regardless of the outcome of those last two games, I'd just like to congratulate TSM on their competitive spirit, it has been a battle right to the end and that's how it should be. Also, thanks jpcloet and MarvaL for their organisation, as Fruitcake said the bandits have very much enjoyed competing in this league and look forward to future events.
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby Bones2484 on Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:55 pm

Well that likely finishes off Game 6636076 for a 7-1 victory over the Monkeys. Bandits just need to win Game 6636243, now.
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby pmchugh on Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:01 pm

Bones2484 wrote:Well that likely finishes off Game 6636076. Bandits just need to win Game 6636243, now.


Congrats to g1, 7-1 against tsm.

What happens if its a tie as it looks like it will end that way, though charleston isn't over yet. Does it go by head-to-head record?
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby Bruceswar on Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:28 pm

pmchugh wrote:
Bones2484 wrote:Well that likely finishes off Game 6636076. Bandits just need to win Game 6636243, now.


Congrats to g1, 7-1 against tsm.

What happens if its a tie as it looks like it will end that way, though charleston isn't over yet. Does it go by head-to-head record?



It would and TSM owns the tie break.
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby waseemalim on Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:11 am

Bones2484 wrote:Well that likely finishes off Game 6636076 for a 7-1 victory over the Monkeys. Bandits just need to win Game 6636243, now.



wow. will you train us please? We have never defeated the monkis (didnt even have ties).
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Re: Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Tables & Results

Postby Bones2484 on Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:16 am

waseemalim wrote:
Bones2484 wrote:Well that likely finishes off Game 6636076 for a 7-1 victory over the Monkeys. Bandits just need to win Game 6636243, now.



wow. will you train us please? We have never defeated the monkis (didnt even have ties).


The trick is to play random maps as then they can't put specialists in the games. As you can see by our season score, we were farmed on away maps and got worked over towards a terrible record... but on our home maps we are going to finish with close to a .6 winning percentage. Which is pretty impressive considering we went all random.

That strat helped us beat AoD, Nemesis, Monkis, and BSS (with a tie against BpB) at home. We really only had trouble against you guys, Wassee.

We just gotta work on learning specific maps better for away games to stop getting farmed :P
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