The International Clan League (ICL)

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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby MNDuke on Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:58 pm

Dibbler wrote:I like the idea and will put it to the rest of my clan, I will very likely be the contact should the Pigs want in. I am also a little concerned with the number of games in a 4 month span. Though it would certainly encourage clans to spread the games around it could also force smaller clans to stay away just cause they can't handle all the games with other commitments.

I agree with Lordnex that ties are not bad and that during the regular season should be allowed. However if there are only a small number of games per set there may end up being too many ties. Since there is going to be a home team and an away team, why not make an odd number of games per set to eliminate ties? Its not like both sides need to be made equal. The home team decides all the games anyway.


It can definitely be looked into. A possible solution could be to play 1 dubs, 1 trips and 1 quads. That eliminates one game from every set and gets rid of the tie. Thus decreases the demand and the work lord. I absolutely hate ties. They belong in tee ball and soccer. I like having a definitive winner. Ties bog things down. I think this would probably be the best solution. I also don't want to get into a points system. I want this to be pure win and loss record.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby PROFITS on Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:16 pm

I'll post it in our forum and see if any responses.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby JP007 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:48 pm

if you can get it all the logistics worked out it sounds great.

Count the Devil's Brigade IN!!!!
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby MNDuke on Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:30 am

Thanks. That makes 8 so far. Rest assured, that we will continue to tweak this thing until we have a format that works for everybody. This is going to be a very well thought out and planned/organized league.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby Dibbler on Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:58 am

I think an odd number of games would be the best way to eliminate ties as opposed to tie-breakers.

On another note, is only 3 games representative enough a sample to give a win? Certainly since this is a long term multi-set event you don't want too many games but 3 seems small. Would 5 be too many? I know going higher would reduce the importance of one of the formats, either doubles, trips or quads but it would also legitimize to a slightly greater degree the wins and losses.

Just discussing.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby lordnex on Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:17 am

Yep, 5 games per set with fewer number of sets (3 a week = 48 in 4 months) might be slightly better than more 3 game sets?

2 doubles, 2 trips, 1 quad?
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby greenoaks on Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:41 am

i think duke should run a tournament before embarking on this. something small.

it will help him to better understand what is required.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby IcePack on Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:33 am

greenoaks wrote:i think duke should run a tournament before embarking on this. something small.

it will help him to better understand what is required.


I have tournament experience and will be helping Duke along the way. Lots of the pounds brought up so far will be covered shortly.

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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby Agent 86 on Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:28 pm

I personally think this is fantastic and very workable. 1st Reg are discussing this as well, pretty sure we would be in with both feet and more!!

If I can help Duke in any way I will ( My long lost partner on Arms race ). I think Brock and Eddie would let me organize the troops for this outstanding idea.

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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby MudPuppy on Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:37 pm

The Imperial Dragoons would like to "semi-commit' to participating in the inaugural year of the ICL. Nice job so far, Duke.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby Leehar on Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:44 pm

I hope no Ipl pops up to crush the thoughts of the icl ;)
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby chapcrap on Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:51 pm

greenoaks wrote:i think duke should run a tournament before embarking on this. something small.

it will help him to better understand what is required.

I agree that this would help.

@Dibbler, only 3 games to determine a set is fine IMO. Most sports have short sets in a long season. Plus, that's only 1 set. You will play each other more in your own division and conference.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby skillfusniper33 on Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:03 pm

chapcrap wrote:
greenoaks wrote:i think duke should run a tournament before embarking on this. something small.

it will help him to better understand what is required.

I agree that this would help.

@Dibbler, only 3 games to determine a set is fine IMO. Most sports have short sets in a long season. Plus, that's only 1 set. You will play each other more in your own division and conference.


It would help, but he is also planning this out with some very good tournament organizers, and is also getting the public involved in the organization, so it should work out almost all the kinks.

I agree that only 3 games would be fine for a series, since what he is going off of mostly is a baseball schedule, where most series are 3 games, occasionally a 4 and 2 game series appear, and like chap said the important games will be vs the ones in your division, which you will be playing probably 3 or 4 sets vs (so 9-12 games) maybe a few more
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby Master Kai on Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:30 pm

Retribution likes this. We will participate if this begins. I like the regular season and the post season concept. A lot of members have commented that they would prefer this kind of clan activity over the current structure.

Keep us in the loop. Cheers.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby QuikSilver on Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:08 pm

LHDD wants to be a part of it!
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby Bruceswar on Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:26 am

While I think this is looking better, how long total time will this take? 84 sets? Even at 3 sets a week or 15 games that leaves you with 28 weeks which is half a year before play offs hit and that is not counting for any slow downs. 14 slots to fill for 5 games? 2 doubles 2 triples and 1 quad. So you will need 42 players a week, which for a clan who uses 15 players is about 3 games a week. The game load does not seem to heavy but the work load on war ministers and the host seems like a lot. As the Head Clan Mod, I hope you can keep this going, if you start it.

I assume this would take nearly 35 to 40 weeks to complete. Maybe 9 months? Lets see what comes of this.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby rubenschtorm on Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:44 am

i have lodged my opposition with my clan for 2 reasons only.firstly, if its a league there is no need for a play off.in a league everyone plays everyone and who ever is top when thats done is the winner.simple. there are no tv rights so no need for these insane playoffs.secondly ,and more importantly, no promotion or relegation means that whichever clan is rated in the bottom leagues there is no incentive to improve, being told you are rubbish and will always be rubbish is no good. it will make recruitment to those clans less attractive,and conversely those at the top of the tree could lose every round of every match and still be regarded as a top clan. no promotion and relegation is not a part of many professional sports except in the US.it creates monopolies.why should (as i did)anyone join a new/inexperienced clan if entry into the league structure is not even possible?or improved kudos and reputation for those in it and nothing to lose for those at the top? it is anti-competetive.
a small amendment would swing my vote.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby chapcrap on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:48 pm

Bruceswar wrote:While I think this is looking better, how long total time will this take? 84 sets? Even at 3 sets a week or 15 games that leaves you with 28 weeks which is half a year before play offs hit and that is not counting for any slow downs. 14 slots to fill for 5 games? 2 doubles 2 triples and 1 quad. So you will need 42 players a week, which for a clan who uses 15 players is about 3 games a week. The game load does not seem to heavy but the work load on war ministers and the host seems like a lot. As the Head Clan Mod, I hope you can keep this going, if you start it.

I assume this would take nearly 35 to 40 weeks to complete. Maybe 9 months? Lets see what comes of this.

I don't think you've looked at the specifics. They are already planning on a 4 month regular season, plus time to finish the games, so maybe 5 months.

And the talk about the sets has been 3 game sets (1 double, 1 triple, 1 quad). I really, really doubt that it would take 9 months.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby MudPuppy on Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:08 pm

Bruceswar wrote:While I think this is looking better, how long total time will this take? 84 sets? Even at 3 sets a week or 15 games that leaves you with 28 weeks which is half a year before play offs hit and that is not counting for any slow downs. 14 slots to fill for 5 games? 2 doubles 2 triples and 1 quad. So you will need 42 players a week, which for a clan who uses 15 players is about 3 games a week. The game load does not seem to heavy but the work load on war ministers and the host seems like a lot. As the Head Clan Mod, I hope you can keep this going, if you start it.

I assume this would take nearly 35 to 40 weeks to complete. Maybe 9 months? Lets see what comes of this.

Regular season is proposed to be 4 months: 21 sets/mo (~5 sets/week = 15 games/week). Each set was best of 5 in the original proposal (1Q, 1T, 2D, & 1 1v1 tiebreaker, only if necessary... for 11-12 slots per set). This has since been downgraded to a best of 3 (1Q, 1T, 1D) with 9 slots per set. That equates to 189 slots per month or ~12-13 games per player per month for a team of 15, which doesn't sound unreasonable.

The work load could easily get a bit busy for war ministers, depending on their approach. But as long as schedules are known in advance and there are definitive procedures for handling missed game submissions (e.g., home games all randomized) it shouldn't be overwhelming.

Planning for 36 clans in the inaugural year seems a bit ambitious. I'd plan for 30: 3 divisions of 5 in each of two conferences. You can easily expand (or reduce) from that target as necessary but I'm sceptical that 36 clans would join in the first year considering the CLA-sponsored clan league only has 39 entrants in its 4th season.

I'm definitely in favor of the playoff aspect of it. Though, I'd prefer that fewer teams make the playoffs: 16 out of 36 is a bit much. I'd prefer cutting that number in half. So far, the proposed league most closely resembles MLB and I'd prefer the playoff format continue with that trend: 3 divisional winners + 1 wild card in each conference. I'd have either a best of 5- or 7-set series for the first round with best of 7-set series for the Conference Championships and the ICL Final.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby chapcrap on Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:43 pm

MudPuppy wrote:I'm definitely in favor of the playoff aspect of it. Though, I'd prefer that fewer teams make the playoffs: 16 out of 36 is a bit much. I'd prefer cutting that number in half. So far, the proposed league most closely resembles MLB and I'd prefer the playoff format continue with that trend: 3 divisional winners + 1 wild card in each conference. I'd have either a best of 5- or 7-set series for the first round with best of 7-set series for the Conference Championships and the ICL Final.

I like this.

As far as the number of teamsclans in the league, I would just take sign ups and see how many you get. I would make 30 the max. And go with at least 12 (which I think you've already surpassed).
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby MNDuke on Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:24 am

Thanks to everyone who has shown support and has semi-committed to participating. I updated the front page to reflect this.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby MNDuke on Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:34 am

To address other concerns. Not sure where to start. As for number of teams or participants, as mentioned, I based the number off the F400 rankings and arbitrarily stuck with that number. Since everything is based off 36 participants, I'm going to stick with that number for now as that is the goal, however unreasonable that may seem. When things start getting more finalized, I will update it. For now, just gauging overall interest and trying to ballpark the number or entrants. As of now we have 12 clans semi-committed, with more still considering. I got 12 in a week and only need 24 to meet my goal of 36 and I'm hoping to hit that number. All it will take is for another 12 to express interest and I think from there the rest will fill in. I'm being optimistic though.

As for my lack of experience, I'm confident this will not be a problem as mentioned, I've been offered help from some very experienced tourney pros who will be in charge of the organization and running the League. So, this shouldn't be an issue or concern.

Regular season is proposed to be 4 months: 21 sets/mo (~5 sets/week = 15 games/week). Each set was best of 5 in the original proposal (1Q, 1T, 2D, & 1 1v1 tiebreaker, only if necessary... for 11-12 slots per set). This has since been downgraded to a best of 3 (1Q, 1T, 1D) with 9 slots per set. That equates to 189 slots per month or ~12-13 games per player per month for a team of 15, which doesn't sound unreasonable.

The work load could easily get a bit busy for war ministers, depending on their approach. But as long as schedules are known in advance and there are definitive procedures for handling missed game submissions (e.g., home games all randomized) it shouldn't be overwhelming.


I don't think you've looked at the specifics. They are already planning on a 4 month regular season, plus time to finish the games, so maybe 5 months.

And the talk about the sets has been 3 game sets (1 double, 1 triple, 1 quad). I really, really doubt that it would take 9 months.


Also, I'm happy with the number of games and how they are implemented. That's what makes this different from other leagues. Both Chapcrap and Mudpuppy already articulated the same points I would have.
Last edited by MNDuke on Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby MNDuke on Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:49 am

rubenschtorm wrote:i have lodged my opposition with my clan for 2 reasons only. firstly, if its a league there is no need for a play off.in a league everyone plays everyone and who ever is top when thats done is the winner.simple. there are no tv rights so no need for these insane playoffs.secondly ,and more importantly, no promotion or relegation means that whichever clan is rated in the bottom leagues there is no incentive to improve, being told you are rubbish and will always be rubbish is no good. it will make recruitment to those clans less attractive,and conversely those at the top of the tree could lose every round of every match and still be regarded as a top clan. no promotion and relegation is not a part of many professional sports except in the US.it creates monopolies.why should (as i did)anyone join a new/inexperienced clan if entry into the league structure is not even possible?or improved kudos and reputation for those in it and nothing to lose for those at the top? it is anti-competetive.
a small amendment would swing my vote.


I disagree, a playoff is necessary. That is the what the season up to and what you are playing for. Having many divisions and 2 conferences means that at the end of the season, there needs to be a way of determining who is the Champion. If teams in different divisions are tied, how would you go about declaring a winner?

I don't see how the lack of incentive to improve or how this issue would be any different from any other league or tournament. Wouldn't the same recruitment issues still exist? I don't see how this anti-competitve. Performing well in the season should drive competition. Especially if the race for the playoffs spots are close. That makes every game count, plus you have divisional opponents which should drive competition up even more, and create rivalries. that should make for some intense competition. Also, there are quite a number of playoff spots which should mean that lesser clans have a shot at making playoffs and knocking out top clans. Another point you bring up is that if top clans don't perform well it won't matter because they will still be considered a top clan. I would argue that if a top clan performs poorly in this, it would make recruitment less desirable compared to a clan that showed well and is improving. Once again, not sure how this is any different from what is currently going on in other leagues and tournaments. If anything, due to the smaller game sizes, this should give smaller or lesser clans a chance to compete as you don't have to try and fill rosters for a whole clan war, but only a few games, giving you the option to improve your match-ups.

I hear your complaints, but don't see you offering any solutions. What would you do solve these issues? One idea I have would be to create a free agency pool and waiver wire for individuals not in clans but looking to participate in the ICL. Individuals not currently in a clan could opt to join the free agency pool from which Clans participating could put in a claim. After a claim is put in for a player, all other clans would have 1 week to make a claim against, the team highest on the waiver wire would get rights to claim that player. Teams with worse records would have first dibs. This makes things more complex, but is a possible solution if enough concern is addressed and this becomes and issue.

I will be going over everything with IcePack, hopefully tomorrow and things should start becoming more clear. Thanks again for all the feedback and interest. Keep it coming.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby skillfusniper33 on Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:07 am

MNDuke wrote:I hear your complaints, but don't see you offering any solutions. What would you do solve these issues? One idea I have would be to create a free agency pool and waiver wire for individuals not in clans but looking to participate in the ICL. Individuals not currently in a clan could opt to join the free agency pool from which Clans participating could put in a claim. After a claim is put in for a player, all other clans would have 1 week to make a claim against, the team highest on the waiver wire would get rights to claim that player. Teams with worse records would have first dibs. This makes things more complex, but is a possible solution if enough concern is addressed and this becomes and issue.


I really don't see this being to useful to start anyway, especially with many of the people who are in clan's won't go into the pool, and yes the clan community is growing, but I really don't think their is enough people not in a clan out their to put together a free-agency pool. I guess you could do it with a few members for clans that aren't participating. This also would require a lot more work to get into place.

I know I probably wouldn't use the free-agency pool at all, since I really want it to be about my clan's performance rather than who can I bring in to help with this 1 series of 3 games. I would also trust my guy's to perform better together than with some other person to come in and help out, even if they are a specialist on the map.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby MNDuke on Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:47 am

skillfusniper33 wrote:
MNDuke wrote:I hear your complaints, but don't see you offering any solutions. What would you do solve these issues? One idea I have would be to create a free agency pool and waiver wire for individuals not in clans but looking to participate in the ICL. Individuals not currently in a clan could opt to join the free agency pool from which Clans participating could put in a claim. After a claim is put in for a player, all other clans would have 1 week to make a claim against, the team highest on the waiver wire would get rights to claim that player. Teams with worse records would have first dibs. This makes things more complex, but is a possible solution if enough concern is addressed and this becomes and issue.


I really don't see this being to useful to start anyway, especially with many of the people who are in clan's won't go into the pool, and yes the clan community is growing, but I really don't think their is enough people not in a clan out their to put together a free-agency pool. I guess you could do it with a few members for clans that aren't participating. This also would require a lot more work to get into place.

I know I probably wouldn't use the free-agency pool at all, since I really want it to be about my clan's performance rather than who can I bring in to help with this 1 series of 3 games. I would also trust my guy's to perform better together than with some other person to come in and help out, even if they are a specialist on the map.


I agree completely. I'm really not in favor of this idea but was merely offering up a solution if it is indeed a concern keeping teams from joining.

A better option might be a thread where people not in clans but interested in participating in the league could post. From there, clans looking for players could find them there, contact, and add them to their roster. All this could be done outside of the league and wouldn't require and additional time, supervision or extra work on the part of the TO's.
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