The International Clan League (ICL)

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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby Bruceswar on Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:26 am

While I think this is looking better, how long total time will this take? 84 sets? Even at 3 sets a week or 15 games that leaves you with 28 weeks which is half a year before play offs hit and that is not counting for any slow downs. 14 slots to fill for 5 games? 2 doubles 2 triples and 1 quad. So you will need 42 players a week, which for a clan who uses 15 players is about 3 games a week. The game load does not seem to heavy but the work load on war ministers and the host seems like a lot. As the Head Clan Mod, I hope you can keep this going, if you start it.

I assume this would take nearly 35 to 40 weeks to complete. Maybe 9 months? Lets see what comes of this.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby rubenschtorm on Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:44 am

i have lodged my opposition with my clan for 2 reasons only.firstly, if its a league there is no need for a play off.in a league everyone plays everyone and who ever is top when thats done is the winner.simple. there are no tv rights so no need for these insane playoffs.secondly ,and more importantly, no promotion or relegation means that whichever clan is rated in the bottom leagues there is no incentive to improve, being told you are rubbish and will always be rubbish is no good. it will make recruitment to those clans less attractive,and conversely those at the top of the tree could lose every round of every match and still be regarded as a top clan. no promotion and relegation is not a part of many professional sports except in the US.it creates monopolies.why should (as i did)anyone join a new/inexperienced clan if entry into the league structure is not even possible?or improved kudos and reputation for those in it and nothing to lose for those at the top? it is anti-competetive.
a small amendment would swing my vote.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby chapcrap on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:48 pm

Bruceswar wrote:While I think this is looking better, how long total time will this take? 84 sets? Even at 3 sets a week or 15 games that leaves you with 28 weeks which is half a year before play offs hit and that is not counting for any slow downs. 14 slots to fill for 5 games? 2 doubles 2 triples and 1 quad. So you will need 42 players a week, which for a clan who uses 15 players is about 3 games a week. The game load does not seem to heavy but the work load on war ministers and the host seems like a lot. As the Head Clan Mod, I hope you can keep this going, if you start it.

I assume this would take nearly 35 to 40 weeks to complete. Maybe 9 months? Lets see what comes of this.

I don't think you've looked at the specifics. They are already planning on a 4 month regular season, plus time to finish the games, so maybe 5 months.

And the talk about the sets has been 3 game sets (1 double, 1 triple, 1 quad). I really, really doubt that it would take 9 months.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby MudPuppy on Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:08 pm

Bruceswar wrote:While I think this is looking better, how long total time will this take? 84 sets? Even at 3 sets a week or 15 games that leaves you with 28 weeks which is half a year before play offs hit and that is not counting for any slow downs. 14 slots to fill for 5 games? 2 doubles 2 triples and 1 quad. So you will need 42 players a week, which for a clan who uses 15 players is about 3 games a week. The game load does not seem to heavy but the work load on war ministers and the host seems like a lot. As the Head Clan Mod, I hope you can keep this going, if you start it.

I assume this would take nearly 35 to 40 weeks to complete. Maybe 9 months? Lets see what comes of this.

Regular season is proposed to be 4 months: 21 sets/mo (~5 sets/week = 15 games/week). Each set was best of 5 in the original proposal (1Q, 1T, 2D, & 1 1v1 tiebreaker, only if necessary... for 11-12 slots per set). This has since been downgraded to a best of 3 (1Q, 1T, 1D) with 9 slots per set. That equates to 189 slots per month or ~12-13 games per player per month for a team of 15, which doesn't sound unreasonable.

The work load could easily get a bit busy for war ministers, depending on their approach. But as long as schedules are known in advance and there are definitive procedures for handling missed game submissions (e.g., home games all randomized) it shouldn't be overwhelming.

Planning for 36 clans in the inaugural year seems a bit ambitious. I'd plan for 30: 3 divisions of 5 in each of two conferences. You can easily expand (or reduce) from that target as necessary but I'm sceptical that 36 clans would join in the first year considering the CLA-sponsored clan league only has 39 entrants in its 4th season.

I'm definitely in favor of the playoff aspect of it. Though, I'd prefer that fewer teams make the playoffs: 16 out of 36 is a bit much. I'd prefer cutting that number in half. So far, the proposed league most closely resembles MLB and I'd prefer the playoff format continue with that trend: 3 divisional winners + 1 wild card in each conference. I'd have either a best of 5- or 7-set series for the first round with best of 7-set series for the Conference Championships and the ICL Final.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby chapcrap on Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:43 pm

MudPuppy wrote:I'm definitely in favor of the playoff aspect of it. Though, I'd prefer that fewer teams make the playoffs: 16 out of 36 is a bit much. I'd prefer cutting that number in half. So far, the proposed league most closely resembles MLB and I'd prefer the playoff format continue with that trend: 3 divisional winners + 1 wild card in each conference. I'd have either a best of 5- or 7-set series for the first round with best of 7-set series for the Conference Championships and the ICL Final.

I like this.

As far as the number of teamsclans in the league, I would just take sign ups and see how many you get. I would make 30 the max. And go with at least 12 (which I think you've already surpassed).
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby MNDuke on Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:24 am

Thanks to everyone who has shown support and has semi-committed to participating. I updated the front page to reflect this.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby MNDuke on Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:34 am

To address other concerns. Not sure where to start. As for number of teams or participants, as mentioned, I based the number off the F400 rankings and arbitrarily stuck with that number. Since everything is based off 36 participants, I'm going to stick with that number for now as that is the goal, however unreasonable that may seem. When things start getting more finalized, I will update it. For now, just gauging overall interest and trying to ballpark the number or entrants. As of now we have 12 clans semi-committed, with more still considering. I got 12 in a week and only need 24 to meet my goal of 36 and I'm hoping to hit that number. All it will take is for another 12 to express interest and I think from there the rest will fill in. I'm being optimistic though.

As for my lack of experience, I'm confident this will not be a problem as mentioned, I've been offered help from some very experienced tourney pros who will be in charge of the organization and running the League. So, this shouldn't be an issue or concern.

Regular season is proposed to be 4 months: 21 sets/mo (~5 sets/week = 15 games/week). Each set was best of 5 in the original proposal (1Q, 1T, 2D, & 1 1v1 tiebreaker, only if necessary... for 11-12 slots per set). This has since been downgraded to a best of 3 (1Q, 1T, 1D) with 9 slots per set. That equates to 189 slots per month or ~12-13 games per player per month for a team of 15, which doesn't sound unreasonable.

The work load could easily get a bit busy for war ministers, depending on their approach. But as long as schedules are known in advance and there are definitive procedures for handling missed game submissions (e.g., home games all randomized) it shouldn't be overwhelming.


I don't think you've looked at the specifics. They are already planning on a 4 month regular season, plus time to finish the games, so maybe 5 months.

And the talk about the sets has been 3 game sets (1 double, 1 triple, 1 quad). I really, really doubt that it would take 9 months.


Also, I'm happy with the number of games and how they are implemented. That's what makes this different from other leagues. Both Chapcrap and Mudpuppy already articulated the same points I would have.
Last edited by MNDuke on Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby MNDuke on Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:49 am

rubenschtorm wrote:i have lodged my opposition with my clan for 2 reasons only. firstly, if its a league there is no need for a play off.in a league everyone plays everyone and who ever is top when thats done is the winner.simple. there are no tv rights so no need for these insane playoffs.secondly ,and more importantly, no promotion or relegation means that whichever clan is rated in the bottom leagues there is no incentive to improve, being told you are rubbish and will always be rubbish is no good. it will make recruitment to those clans less attractive,and conversely those at the top of the tree could lose every round of every match and still be regarded as a top clan. no promotion and relegation is not a part of many professional sports except in the US.it creates monopolies.why should (as i did)anyone join a new/inexperienced clan if entry into the league structure is not even possible?or improved kudos and reputation for those in it and nothing to lose for those at the top? it is anti-competetive.
a small amendment would swing my vote.


I disagree, a playoff is necessary. That is the what the season up to and what you are playing for. Having many divisions and 2 conferences means that at the end of the season, there needs to be a way of determining who is the Champion. If teams in different divisions are tied, how would you go about declaring a winner?

I don't see how the lack of incentive to improve or how this issue would be any different from any other league or tournament. Wouldn't the same recruitment issues still exist? I don't see how this anti-competitve. Performing well in the season should drive competition. Especially if the race for the playoffs spots are close. That makes every game count, plus you have divisional opponents which should drive competition up even more, and create rivalries. that should make for some intense competition. Also, there are quite a number of playoff spots which should mean that lesser clans have a shot at making playoffs and knocking out top clans. Another point you bring up is that if top clans don't perform well it won't matter because they will still be considered a top clan. I would argue that if a top clan performs poorly in this, it would make recruitment less desirable compared to a clan that showed well and is improving. Once again, not sure how this is any different from what is currently going on in other leagues and tournaments. If anything, due to the smaller game sizes, this should give smaller or lesser clans a chance to compete as you don't have to try and fill rosters for a whole clan war, but only a few games, giving you the option to improve your match-ups.

I hear your complaints, but don't see you offering any solutions. What would you do solve these issues? One idea I have would be to create a free agency pool and waiver wire for individuals not in clans but looking to participate in the ICL. Individuals not currently in a clan could opt to join the free agency pool from which Clans participating could put in a claim. After a claim is put in for a player, all other clans would have 1 week to make a claim against, the team highest on the waiver wire would get rights to claim that player. Teams with worse records would have first dibs. This makes things more complex, but is a possible solution if enough concern is addressed and this becomes and issue.

I will be going over everything with IcePack, hopefully tomorrow and things should start becoming more clear. Thanks again for all the feedback and interest. Keep it coming.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby skillfusniper33 on Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:07 am

MNDuke wrote:I hear your complaints, but don't see you offering any solutions. What would you do solve these issues? One idea I have would be to create a free agency pool and waiver wire for individuals not in clans but looking to participate in the ICL. Individuals not currently in a clan could opt to join the free agency pool from which Clans participating could put in a claim. After a claim is put in for a player, all other clans would have 1 week to make a claim against, the team highest on the waiver wire would get rights to claim that player. Teams with worse records would have first dibs. This makes things more complex, but is a possible solution if enough concern is addressed and this becomes and issue.


I really don't see this being to useful to start anyway, especially with many of the people who are in clan's won't go into the pool, and yes the clan community is growing, but I really don't think their is enough people not in a clan out their to put together a free-agency pool. I guess you could do it with a few members for clans that aren't participating. This also would require a lot more work to get into place.

I know I probably wouldn't use the free-agency pool at all, since I really want it to be about my clan's performance rather than who can I bring in to help with this 1 series of 3 games. I would also trust my guy's to perform better together than with some other person to come in and help out, even if they are a specialist on the map.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby MNDuke on Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:47 am

skillfusniper33 wrote:
MNDuke wrote:I hear your complaints, but don't see you offering any solutions. What would you do solve these issues? One idea I have would be to create a free agency pool and waiver wire for individuals not in clans but looking to participate in the ICL. Individuals not currently in a clan could opt to join the free agency pool from which Clans participating could put in a claim. After a claim is put in for a player, all other clans would have 1 week to make a claim against, the team highest on the waiver wire would get rights to claim that player. Teams with worse records would have first dibs. This makes things more complex, but is a possible solution if enough concern is addressed and this becomes and issue.


I really don't see this being to useful to start anyway, especially with many of the people who are in clan's won't go into the pool, and yes the clan community is growing, but I really don't think their is enough people not in a clan out their to put together a free-agency pool. I guess you could do it with a few members for clans that aren't participating. This also would require a lot more work to get into place.

I know I probably wouldn't use the free-agency pool at all, since I really want it to be about my clan's performance rather than who can I bring in to help with this 1 series of 3 games. I would also trust my guy's to perform better together than with some other person to come in and help out, even if they are a specialist on the map.


I agree completely. I'm really not in favor of this idea but was merely offering up a solution if it is indeed a concern keeping teams from joining.

A better option might be a thread where people not in clans but interested in participating in the league could post. From there, clans looking for players could find them there, contact, and add them to their roster. All this could be done outside of the league and wouldn't require and additional time, supervision or extra work on the part of the TO's.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby rubenschtorm on Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:34 am

solution i did offer.have your 6 divisions,each clan plays each other.each win earns 1 point,and if it was 2-1(in a 3 set)then 1 extra point,or 3 extra if it was 3-0, and the same if a 5 set ,5-0 would earn 6 points(1 for the overall victory and 5 for the 5-0 scoreline.)End of season top 2 teams get promoted, bottom 2 relegated.bottom clan in div 6 drops out and another from a waiting list gets randomly added to div 6,or voted in.not much chance of a tie,if there is it goes down to who won their particular confrontation.
this means that clans can climb the leagues or fall down them,not being given an automatic right to claim to be a top clan but having to earn the status.there are many competitors who are up for the challenge of joining a lower league team/clan to try and beat the odds and improve ,earning top flight status by working hard to win their division and steadily earn the status they strive for.would David Bekham have joined a club that were forbidden by the structure from becoming champions? i dont think so.
others would consider their futures in clans that had no higher ambition than to play lower league competition.
personally i favour 5 matches per war , 1xs,1xdub,1xtrip,2xquad, using 14 different players so 1 superstar cant do all the work.gives all clan members a chance to participate in the season.
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Re: Improvements - The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby MNDuke on Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:06 am

rubenschtorm wrote:solution i did offer.have your 6 divisions,each clan plays each other.each win earns 1 point,and if it was 2-1(in a 3 set)then 1 extra point,or 3 extra if it was 3-0, and the same if a 5 set ,5-0 would earn 6 points(1 for the overall victory and 5 for the 5-0 scoreline.)End of season top 2 teams get promoted, bottom 2 relegated.bottom clan in div 6 drops out and another from a waiting list gets randomly added to div 6,or voted in.not much chance of a tie,if there is it goes down to who won their particular confrontation.
this means that clans can climb the leagues or fall down them,not being given an automatic right to claim to be a top clan but having to earn the status.there are many competitors who are up for the challenge of joining a lower league team/clan to try and beat the odds and improve ,earning top flight status by working hard to win their division and steadily earn the status they strive for.would David Bekham have joined a club that were forbidden by the structure from becoming champions? i dont think so.
others would consider their futures in clans that had no higher ambition than to play lower league competition.
personally i favour 5 matches per war , 1xs,1xdub,1xtrip,2xquad, using 14 different players so 1 superstar cant do all the work.gives all clan members a chance to participate in the season.


I'm not following what you are trying to say and don't see the need for promotion or having clans climb up or fall down divisions, since your placement in the division has no bearing on who you play during the season. There is no need for this. There is also no need for a point system. To incorporate a point system defeats what I am trying to accomplish and that is to mimic a professional sports league. This isn't Nascar or World Cup. This has nothing to do with clan status. This isn't a ladder tournament or knock it league. It's pretty straightforward. Can you try and articulate your point a little better. I really don't understand what you are trying to say. I am trying to but failing.

In the league I have proposed every chance has the same chance of winning as every other clan. It's all based on performance. If your clan performs better than others you deserve the right to play in the post season and a chance to win it all. 1 Superstar can't do all the work. The game load would be quite high for someone to try that. The way its set up, you will have to use about 20-30 members. Having 1v1 games allows superstars to do all the work. Eliminating that and only having team games ensures that you have to play and win as a team. I understand that this format isn't for everyone. I've been trying the best I can to make compromises, concessions and accommodations that work for all. I feel that I've done a pretty good job of that. But to do what you are talking about is to complete restructure the league and I have no desire to do that. Perhaps you would like to create a league or tournament using your vision.
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Re: The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby greenoaks on Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:44 am

the confusion is because one of you is thinking European with their Merit (re: English Premier League) based leagues that all teams aspire to be promoted to and the other is thinking American with your geographical location of teams competition.

as clans are not geographicaly situated perhaps a modification to the current setup would appease.

after 'x' number of years the clans' performances are ranked and they are seeded so the top 2 clans are on opposite sides, as are 3 & 4, 5 & 6, etc. perhaps the top 8 or 16 get seeded like a tennis tournament.
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Re: The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby cookie0117 on Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:07 am

SOH are interested and will provisionally sign up. We will make a full commitment when the schedule and game load is finalised. Its all looking god at the moment, especially with the reduction in games per week.
Im foeing to get medals, unless your 1 of the 6 people who will remain on my list, message me if you want a game.
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Re: The International Clan League (ICL)

Postby rubenschtorm on Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:13 am

think you have hit spot on there greenoaks :) its the difference between American system and the rest of the worlds way of doing things :roll:
just figured that with my suggestion each season would be completed within 3 or 4 weeks with entire fixture list being played simultaneously(so even if there were 10 clans in each division there would be 9 matches going on , not a high workload)ok forget the singles and add a dubs or trip, gives an extra couple of spots to test squad strength.
if i was clever enough i would certainly like to organise such a thing, but my computer skills are limited, well poor actually, but it would be best to have 1 overall structure rather than seperate rivalling competitions . the league system would allow many clans to compete as it could be structured to accommodate numbers (top 3 divisions 10 clans each,bottom 3 divs with 12 clans each=66 clans, or 10 divisions with 10 clans each=100 clans,or any agreed combination, allowing 1 very easy to understand permanent competition to encompass every clan in cc.
its really not rocket science lol
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