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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby Leehar on Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:39 am

Moving forward, this was a discussion I already had with some other people, but is Phase 3 really necessary?
Phase 2 ensure that all the top clans play each other in a proper league format, and phase 4 is useful in determining a more worthy winner since it's a proper full length head to head, but phase 3 just seems like an unnecessary addendum?
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby josko.ri on Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:24 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:Can this forum be as much about suggestions for CL5 as it is for complaints about CL4? I see this as being far more productive to resolving issues as, let's face it, whatever has happened in CL4 is already a fait accompli. The rules were set and every clan has had to comply with them - same for everyone (though some have seemingly coped better than others, but that's an admin thing by the look of it). If there have been problems with a particular TO then I'm sure this will be taken into consideration when the next series comes along, but for the meantime can we all just apply ourselves to seeing this through and upholding our obligations, both as TOs and as 1st Contacts. It would be great.

Now here's something that I think warrants closer scrutiny. It is the system adopted by UEFA for the European Championships 2012 in which there were 51 countries divided into nine qualifying groups. Not too dissimilar to the conundrum organisers of CL4 were faced with when deciding how best to 'qualify' the top clans from each division. Have a read:

"There were nine groups. Six of these groups had six teams; the remaining three groups consisted of five teams. Group competition was a double round robin: each team hosted a game with every other team in its group. The first-placed team in each group qualified, along with the second-place team with the most points against teams ranked in the top five in the group. The remaining eight second-place teams are paired for two-game play-offs, with the winner of each tie qualifying for the finals"

So what UEFA have done is take each 2nd-placed team in a group and calculate the points they earned against the four other teams in the Top 5. This is a clever system as it has no bearing on the 1st-placed team (i.e. if 1st place beat last place those points still stand, which is fair enough as everyone in each group had the same opportunity) but it does create a level playing field for the 2nd-placed teams who were in a group of only five countries. Their 4 results against opponents are comparable to the 4 results of a 2nd-placed team in a group of six. This is far better than the 'share a draw' system applied in CL4.

Only other thing I'll add (for now) is the restriction on Unlimited Forts. Personally I don't like them, but to have a quota placed on the number of games that can use them seemed unnecessary and possibly a deliberate handicap to KORT. This seems unfair. If they happen to be bloody good at those settings why penalise them? It's the first time I've ever known of unlimited forts being restricted and it seems unreasonable to me. It is a very standard game setting across all spheres of CC gameplay (tournies, challenges, etc).

Cheers

CoF


100% agree, if only there was more reasonable posts like this, we would have much better clan league.


Leehar wrote:Moving forward, this was a discussion I already had with some other people, but is Phase 3 really necessary?
Phase 2 ensure that all the top clans play each other in a proper league format, and phase 4 is useful in determining a more worthy winner since it's a proper full length head to head, but phase 3 just seems like an unnecessary addendum?

Since that was my and Masli's idea, first time shown in our proposed format, I will reply why we thought it was necessary...
Our general idea was that we have something similar like knockout, just in league style. in knockout, every next round has 50% less clans than previous round had.

Our initial statement was: "If a clan can achieve to be better than 50% other clans in particular round, then that clan deserves to advance to next round." so, if clan can be in top 4 when there are 8 clans, they move forward, if clan can be in top 2 when there are 4 clans they move forward, and if clan can be in top 1 when there are 2 clans they move forward.

positive sides of that format are also that almost every clan is in fight for advancing to next stage until the almost end, so everyone play with high motive. if we just made top 2 of 8 advance, then clans who are 6,7,8th placed after 4-5 rounds would loose any chance to advance and would maybe loose motive, so then clans who play vs them in Rounds 6-7 would have easier job than the ones who played vs them in round 1-5. with this format, almost everyone will be in chance for advance to next round until the very end.
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby Lindax on Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:54 pm

I just wish I had a clue what the Clan League is all about.

I don't know who we're playing (abbreviations of clans), I don't know where were standing, I don't know what I'm playing for, I don't know what settings we can and can't use and why, etc., etc.

This whole thing has gotten so complicated that even with my high intelligence level I cannot see the forest through the trees.

I'm going to ask my clan person in charge of clan wars to leave me out of this.

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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby Leehar on Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:12 pm

Lindax wrote:I just wish I had a clue what the Clan League is all about.

I don't know who we're playing (abbreviations of clans), I don't know where were standing, I don't know what I'm playing for, I don't know what settings we can and can't use and why, etc., etc.

This whole thing has gotten so complicated that even with my high intelligence level I cannot see the forest through the trees.

I'm going to ask my clan person in charge of clan wars to leave me out of this.

Lx


I'm sure it seems a bit intimidating when looking at it in an overall context, but it really isn't as tough as you're making it out to be.
Heck, it sure as hell has a whole lot less turnover then with Tournaments!

But anyway, with regards to your first 2, the following links are crucial:
viewtopic.php?f=438&t=155407#p3404542 - The Active list of clans, pity it's not linked anymore otherwise you could get an idea of the players in them and how they explain themselves.
viewtopic.php?f=438&t=159580 - The ranking currently believed to be the closest approximation to where clans truly stand by virtue of results, give or take a few months.

For the 2nd two Q's, most people like Pack seemingly play purely for medals, while others just to play for pride, to team with friends, or have the most competitive gaming experience to be found on the CC siteTM, and settings are really purely determined by what you :-$ really want to play! It can exclude anything, or include anything your clan would like to play, subject of course to if other clans are interested in playing it as well.
You'll find however most clans are amenable to almost anything!
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby niMic on Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:21 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:Only other thing I'll add (for now) is the restriction on Unlimited Forts. Personally I don't like them, but to have a quota placed on the number of games that can use them seemed unnecessary and possibly a deliberate handicap to KORT. This seems unfair. If they happen to be bloody good at those settings why penalise them? It's the first time I've ever known of unlimited forts being restricted and it seems unreasonable to me. It is a very standard game setting across all spheres of CC gameplay (tournies, challenges, etc).


I didn't even notice that. That's pretty terrible. It's not like Unlimited is some new, controversial setting. It's pretty old.
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby John Deere on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:15 pm

Leehar wrote:
For the 2nd two Q's, most people like Pack seemingly play purely for medals, while others just to play for pride, to team with friends, or have the most competitive gaming experience to be found on the CC siteTM, and settings are really purely determined by what you :-$ really want to play! It can exclude anything, or include anything your clan would like to play, subject of course to if other clans are interested in playing it as well.
You'll find however most clans are amenable to almost anything!


Thats pretty funny! Some of us like the medals but we play to be the best! You know like to be better than Empire! ;) Its funny how a few of you Empire guys used to just say we were lucky, wait till you face a real clan etc..... now all you can do is find another way to throw mud at us from a distance. Get your foot out of your mouth, you look like a fool :D Oh since you have enough time on your have to talk trash here is some good reading for you http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=442&t=160092 I really like the title! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby chemefreak on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:36 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:Can this forum be as much about suggestions for CL5 as it is for complaints about CL4? I see this as being far more productive to resolving issues as, let's face it, whatever has happened in CL4 is already a fait accompli.


Come on! The subject of the thread is obviously tongue-in-cheek. I was tired of reading complaints in the main thread so I created this one. Makes it easier to ignore the bullshit.
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby jj3044 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:02 pm

John Deere wrote:
Leehar wrote:
For the 2nd two Q's, most people like Pack seemingly play purely for medals, while others just to play for pride, to team with friends, or have the most competitive gaming experience to be found on the CC siteTM, and settings are really purely determined by what you :-$ really want to play! It can exclude anything, or include anything your clan would like to play, subject of course to if other clans are interested in playing it as well.
You'll find however most clans are amenable to almost anything!


Thats pretty funny! Some of us like the medals but we play to be the best! You know like to be better than Empire! ;) Its funny how a few of you Empire guys used to just say we were lucky, wait till you face a real clan etc..... now all you can do is find another way to throw mud at us from a distance. Get your foot out of your mouth, you look like a fool :D Oh since you have enough time on your have to talk trash here is some good reading for you http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=442&t=160092 I really like the title! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

This isn't about you... and perception is everything, isn't it! Let's keep it on topic, ok? Leehar was answering the question. I think we were mighty cordial and congratulatory for the win in the war thread.

On topic now: I believe that just about all the concerns I had, have already been brought up but I will say this: I do think that whoever organizes the CL5 should consider allowing nukes, unlimited unlimited, and (since clans will have more experience by then), trench. We should discuss the timeout issue again in the CLA to create a suggested rule around it, like the suggested wording of the 12hr fog rule.
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby Leehar on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:52 am

John Deere wrote:
Leehar wrote:
For the 2nd two Q's, most people like Pack seemingly play purely for medals, while others just to play for pride, to team with friends, or have the most competitive gaming experience to be found on the CC siteTM, and settings are really purely determined by what you :-$ really want to play! It can exclude anything, or include anything your clan would like to play, subject of course to if other clans are interested in playing it as well.
You'll find however most clans are amenable to almost anything!


Thats pretty funny! Some of us like the medals but we play to be the best! You know like to be better than Empire! ;) Its funny how a few of you Empire guys used to just say we were lucky, wait till you face a real clan etc..... now all you can do is find another way to throw mud at us from a distance. Get your foot out of your mouth, you look like a fool :D Oh since you have enough time on your have to talk trash here is some good reading for you http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=442&t=160092 I really like the title! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


^ What jj said seems to cover this best. Much as I'd prefer to ignore you completely, you do actually exist so my reference seemed a useful analogy after the whole medal saga with Griff and co. Or were you just looking for another area to advertise your infamy?



Moving along, the timing out rules for CL4 really do seem spot on, so I really don't see need for any more than cursory changes, other than applying it on Nukes.
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby laughingcavalier on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:00 am

Lindax wrote:
This whole thing has gotten so complicated that even with my high intelligence level I cannot see the forest through the trees.


This. I've had to have 3 or 4 pm exchanges with organisers, which I never had in any tourney before, and none of them have gone along satisfactory paths. And our monkis seem pretty confused about what we are doing or who we are playing and why. And if we're incorporating another game type, why don't we just play it instead of adopting another set of dubious and forgettable rules to make it yet more complicated? Maybe next time round, you can be less accomodating to all the different interest groups and make the whole format simpler.
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby The Voice on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:14 am

chemefreak wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:Can this forum be as much about suggestions for CL5 as it is for complaints about CL4? I see this as being far more productive to resolving issues as, let's face it, whatever has happened in CL4 is already a fait accompli.


Come on! The subject of the thread is obviously tongue-in-cheek. I was tired of reading complaints in the main thread so I created this one. Makes it easier to ignore the bullshit.


Are you really ignoring the bs? Nothing in here must be bs then?

If a bull shits in the forest, are you able to smell it? Does it even have a smell?

When you place your tongue into your cheek, does it look like you're blowing someone? It does for me. I guess what I'm getting at is that I ate a banana once. Never again.
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby chemefreak on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:39 pm

The Voice wrote: I guess what I'm getting at is that I ate a banana once. Never again.


Thx for sharing this extremely personal experience...we promise not to tell anyone about your banana experimentation :-$ :-$ :-$
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby The Voice on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:01 am

chemefreak wrote:
The Voice wrote: I guess what I'm getting at is that I ate a banana once. Never again.


Thx for sharing this extremely personal experience...we promise not to tell anyone about your banana experimentation :-$ :-$ :-$


Lol, thank you :shock:
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby Bones2484 on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:07 am

chemefreak wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:Can this forum be as much about suggestions for CL5 as it is for complaints about CL4? I see this as being far more productive to resolving issues as, let's face it, whatever has happened in CL4 is already a fait accompli.


Come on! The subject of the thread is obviously tongue-in-cheek. I was tired of reading complaints in the main thread so I created this one. Makes it easier to ignore the bullshit.


Good to know you don't care about some of the legit complaints. Makes the G1 decision to never participate in such events look like even more of a correct decision.
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby Leehar on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:32 am

Bones2484 wrote:
chemefreak wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:Can this forum be as much about suggestions for CL5 as it is for complaints about CL4? I see this as being far more productive to resolving issues as, let's face it, whatever has happened in CL4 is already a fait accompli.


Come on! The subject of the thread is obviously tongue-in-cheek. I was tired of reading complaints in the main thread so I created this one. Makes it easier to ignore the bullshit.


Good to know you don't care about some of the legit complaints. Makes the G1 decision to never participate in such events look like even more of a correct decision.


To be fair tho, Cheme has moved his clan out of the CLA himself, and isn't involved in the running of the CL4 in any way either, so it would make sense if he only created this thread to save him some CD headaches with a lot of trolling reporting going on in the other one I assume?
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby Bones2484 on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:53 am

Leehar wrote:To be fair tho, Cheme has moved his clan out of the CLA himself, and isn't involved in the running of the CL4 in any way either, so it would make sense if he only created this thread to save him some CD headaches with a lot of trolling reporting going on in the other one I assume?


Oh, ok. Thank you for the thoughts! Makes sense. Guess I'm preaching to the choir, then...
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby chemefreak on Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:56 pm

Bones2484 wrote:
Leehar wrote:To be fair tho, Cheme has moved his clan out of the CLA himself, and isn't involved in the running of the CL4 in any way either, so it would make sense if he only created this thread to save him some CD headaches with a lot of trolling reporting going on in the other one I assume?


Oh, ok. Thank you for the thoughts! Makes sense. Guess I'm preaching to the choir, then...


Leehar knows all! Most of you know how calculating I am and that I wouldn't do anything like this in a vacuum. The proper way to improve CL5 is to contact your CLA rep and have them post it in the CLA thread regarding improvements. Not by stirring up trouble in the main thread.

BTW, I have actually worked quite closely with RJ and DJ on certain aspects of the the Clan League. The CDs are not taking credit for any of it, though. The event is a massive undertaking and we truly appreciate the CLA, RJ, and DJ for working so hard on this clan event. DJ and RJ's attention, perseverance, and time have made the whole thing happen. They should be applauded, not criticized.
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby Leehar on Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:00 pm

For the Record though, the Brainchild was Josko's? ;)

Tho obv Masli was involved in ensuring it was considered by the CLA, and I hear Chariot may be involved in the initial Idea, the framework of the League in this iteration was largely Josko's work?
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby chemefreak on Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:21 pm

Leehar wrote:For the Record though, the Brainchild was Josko's? ;)

Tho obv Masli was involved in ensuring it was considered by the CLA, and I hear Chariot may be involved in the initial Idea, the framework of the League in this iteration was largely Josko's work?


I believe you are right. I think Josko and a group of players provided the framework for this league. Now, that being said, things have changed...almost to the point where some who deserve credit won't take it for fear of getting the credit! However, DJ and RJ are the ones that have spent HOURS upon HOURS making this thing run. They should be commended and improvements suggested through the proper outlets.
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby Leehar on Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:32 pm

chemefreak wrote:
Leehar wrote:For the Record though, the Brainchild was Josko's? ;)

Tho obv Masli was involved in ensuring it was considered by the CLA, and I hear Chariot may be involved in the initial Idea, the framework of the League in this iteration was largely Josko's work?


I believe you are right. I think Josko and a group of players provided the framework for this league. Now, that being said, things have changed...almost to the point where some who deserve credit won't take it for fear of getting the credit! However, DJ and RJ are the ones that have spent HOURS upon HOURS making this thing run. They should be commended and improvements suggested through the proper outlets.

Of course and I wouldn't want anyone to think otherwise.

The Operational Management has been superb, by dj and wp especially, but by all the individual directors as well! =D>

However, This Thread is for Complaints! So anymore OT congrats and some Trolling bans will be needed ;)
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby WPBRJ on Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:03 pm

Leehar wrote:For the Record though, the Brainchild was Josko's? ;)

Tho obv Masli was involved in ensuring it was considered by the CLA, and I hear Chariot may be involved in the initial Idea, the framework of the League in this iteration was largely Josko's work?


not really sure how much josko had to do with the format due to i seen way back when the general out line from masli before any one was even thinking of running it. this was before my format that i proposed but i will say he obviously josko had some thing to do with it and he and masli had a great thought that i support 100% or i would have never joined DJ to run it.
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby Teflon Kris on Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:04 pm

chapcrap wrote: I feel like I should be able to play for someone at least. I mean, both of the clans are still in the competition, so it's not like being cup tied in CC3.


Its exactly the dame - you are league-tied.

However, you aren't league-cup tied - so you can play in the cup/trophy/shield/vase for your new clan.

:)
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby Teflon Kris on Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:05 pm

Leehar wrote:For the Record though, the Brainchild was Josko's? ;)

Tho obv Masli was involved in ensuring it was considered by the CLA, and I hear Chariot may be involved in the initial Idea, the framework of the League in this iteration was largely Josko's work?


They put a framework together and explained it in the CLA forum - people voted for it so we added detail and made a couple of minor amendments for practical reasons. The format was ambitious but we have hopefully helped it to happen.
Last edited by Teflon Kris on Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby Teflon Kris on Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:14 pm

Lindax wrote:I just wish I had a clue what the Clan League is all about.

I don't know who we're playing (abbreviations of clans), I don't know where were standing, I don't know what I'm playing for, I don't know what settings we can and can't use and why, etc., etc.

This whole thing has gotten so complicated that even with my high intelligence level I cannot see the forest through the trees.

I'm going to ask my clan person in charge of clan wars to leave me out of this.

Lx


Hopefully, time will enable more people to have a better understanding.

Points raised in this thread will be taken to the CL5 discussion thread in the CLA.

For my part, I wish to see some consistency with the clan league so that the format doesn't change massively each year - there was nothing wrong with the previous leagues whatsoever, but the changing format created a problem within the CLA when jp handed it over - with too much of an empty canvas, democratic agreement on what colour paint we wanted to use for CL4 took months ... :roll: ... and months ... :roll: ... and months ... :roll:

So, the plan here is to create a consistent format and tweak details each year, well in advance of the following year. Change but not massive overhaul. And preferably change in-between seasons rather than during. ;)

So, keep moaning folks and we'll filter out the suggestions and discuss them. Everything wont be changed though, as consistency is needed to help everyone understand the league.

Back to Lx's point about complication - one potential amendment could be to adapt the format a little so that rounds are fortnightly. The weekly schedule tends to bring the next round along too quickly for many clans' liking, players cant keep up with what all the different rounds they are playing in and it also creates the situation where many rounds are on-going at once. With fortnightly rounds, clans will have a better idea how they are performing within their division mid-way through each phase (as some rounds will have finished), rather than all of the results coming in almost at once in a manic finale. Of course, fortnightly rounds would mean that there would need to be at least one phase fewer in the season however. Feel free to discuss further ...

:D
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Re: Clan League Complaint Box

Postby IcePack on Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:51 pm

DJ Teflon wrote:
chapcrap wrote: I feel like I should be able to play for someone at least. I mean, both of the clans are still in the competition, so it's not like being cup tied in CC3.


Its exactly the dame - you are league-tied.

However, you aren't league-cup tied - so you can play in the cup/trophy/shield/vase for your new clan.

:)


It's not the same, with CUP TIED rule of both clans remain in the competition he can move clans for the next round. only if his former clan was knocked out would he be in eligible for future rounds with the new clan.

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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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