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Re: CC Clan League - Major Changes

Postby chapcrap on Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:22 pm

sempaispellcheck wrote:Minor question: if this is based on Premier League football, why not 3 points for a win?

Was this answered?
qwert wrote:2.If we get 42, then i think its better to not ruin format,and will go with 6 groups of 7 teams, and creating 4th league with 7 bottom ranked teams from each group. If we go with 3 league,then last league will have 18 teams, and this could last to long.
42 clans:
1.Premier -12
2.Second-12
3.Third-12
4 Fourth- 6

Why not this:
  1. Premier: 14
  2. Second: 14
  3. Third: 14

Vid_FISO wrote:I get a league format comp, what I don't get is why 2-3-3 home games as opposed to any other numbers, 4 doubles slots, 9 triples, 12 quads, seems top heavy to me. Why not include singles matches?

I agree that 4, 9, 12 is top heavy, but I don't know where you are getting that information from. I don't think we need 1v1 games.

I think it would be good to remove unlimited from doubles games.

I know you talked about the limit before. I think it should either be 3 games per match or 6 games per week. The difference is that if it is 6 games per week, then you could play 5 home games and 1 away game. It does not matter to me which is chosen, but it needs to be specified more clearly.
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Re: CC Clan League - Major Changes

Postby Vid_FISO on Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:56 pm

chapcrap wrote:
Vid_FISO wrote:I get a league format comp, what I don't get is why 2-3-3 home games as opposed to any other numbers, 4 doubles slots, 9 triples, 12 quads, seems top heavy to me. Why not include singles matches?

I agree that 4, 9, 12 is top heavy, but I don't know where you are getting that information from. I don't think we need 1v1 games.


1st post, usual thing with long threads you haven't followed, read the first page and the last page, skip all those in the middle.
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby Qwert on Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:40 pm

sempaispellcheck wrote:
qwert wrote:
benga wrote:Why not just count the players that actually played in games rhater then speculate who will or will not play.


no speculation,, 14 game played -1 win-qualify for medal,, plain and simple.

The thing is, if you have a clan with a lot of players, there's a chance that not all of them will get to play 14 games.
I think your original suggestion:
Number of games required by player to qualify for medal.

10 to 14 clan participants - 20 games
15 to 19 clan participants - 17 games
20 to 24 clan participants - 13 games
25 to 29 clan participants - 10 games
30 plus clan participants - 7 games

is much better and much fairer.
What (I think) MudPuppy was saying is that players who don't play in Clan League games should not be considered "clan participants." For example, by the time this starts, SoH will have (I think) 25-30 players on its roster, but only 15 or so of those will actually play in the Clan League. So, each of those 15 players would have to play 17 games, not just 10, to qualify for a medal.

qwert wrote:If we take that one clan have 30 members, but for competition they registered 24 players, are these mean that all 24 need to play, and second ,are we going to have some penalties if they dont use all players who are registered for competition?

Not at all. There's no reason to penalize clans for keeping inactive players on their roster.

To be clear, I'm OK with the universal 14-game qualification, but I think your original suggestion was much better.

14 game for medal qualification are cover all clans from 10 to 55 players( largest clan in CC have 55 players). These mean that everybody in largest clan in CC can get medal(if they win a League). So any argument how its will be hard to play 14 games in League,realy are not correct. From mine calculation one clan who have 10 fremiums, can very easy play entire league,with all 10 fremiums,and all 10 fremiums can qualify for medals. Of course if they hold free slots.
Lets take your example with SoH
-Total member 25-30
-Only 15 participate in Clan League
-800 slots / 15 players=53 games per player
Now if someone of these 15 players dont manage to be eligible for medal, then its hes fault and hes Leaders, who dont involve hem in more games. Also i dont understand why these qualification are not fair to everybody?

Vid_FISO wrote:New to this so apologies to all, but what is the purpose of all 15 pages (so far) of this?

I get a league format comp, what I don't get is why 2-3-3 home games as opposed to any other numbers, 4 doubles slots, 9 triples, 12 quads, seems top heavy to me. Why not include singles matches?

Settings, why just about everything unlimited but no trench? Why is team manual so disliked?

The last few posts discussing player appearances, what's it based on? The answer may well be hidden somewhere within 15 pages but is unclear to me.

Medals for what exactly? - we aren't going to be winning anything any time soon so is this part of the discussion totally immaterial to the weaker players/ clans?

Fiso these its official CC competition, who involve very large number of clans, and its not like regular Clan War.
trench-manual,, its texnical details, hard that i can explane these.
Medal for Clan League winner.
Hmm,you are new here, but like in any other Leagues, You have champion,and you have participants, and most importan you will play against stronger clans,and increase your experience .
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Re: CC Clan League - Major Changes

Postby chapcrap on Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:13 pm

Vid_FISO wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
Vid_FISO wrote:I get a league format comp, what I don't get is why 2-3-3 home games as opposed to any other numbers, 4 doubles slots, 9 triples, 12 quads, seems top heavy to me. Why not include singles matches?

I agree that 4, 9, 12 is top heavy, but I don't know where you are getting that information from. I don't think we need 1v1 games.


1st post, usual thing with long threads you haven't followed, read the first page and the last page, skip all those in the middle.

That's fine, but I don't see anywhere that says 4, 9, 12. It says 2, 3, 3 for each match.


Hey qwert, are you going to respond to what I said?
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Re: CC Clan League - Major Changes

Postby Qwert on Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:30 pm

chapcrap wrote:
sempaispellcheck wrote:Minor question: if this is based on Premier League football, why not 3 points for a win?

Was this answered?
qwert wrote:2.If we get 42, then i think its better to not ruin format,and will go with 6 groups of 7 teams, and creating 4th league with 7 bottom ranked teams from each group. If we go with 3 league,then last league will have 18 teams, and this could last to long.
42 clans:
1.Premier -12
2.Second-12
3.Third-12
4 Fourth- 6

Why not this:
  1. Premier: 14
  2. Second: 14
  3. Third: 14

Vid_FISO wrote:I get a league format comp, what I don't get is why 2-3-3 home games as opposed to any other numbers, 4 doubles slots, 9 triples, 12 quads, seems top heavy to me. Why not include singles matches?

I agree that 4, 9, 12 is top heavy, but I don't know where you are getting that information from. I don't think we need 1v1 games.

I think it would be good to remove unlimited from doubles games.

I know you talked about the limit before. I think it should either be 3 games per match or 6 games per week. The difference is that if it is 6 games per week, then you could play 5 home games and 1 away game. It does not matter to me which is chosen, but it needs to be specified more clearly.


About points for win,, well i take 2 points, i dont have nothing against 3 points,but then we will have two point awarded option, how to solve these? poll voting?

next for answer: like i say, these format need to be funcional, with clear competition rules,and most important, not to be very long. If we get 42 clans, then will all ready longest qualification stage( by 2 more week), and if we create 3 league with 14 clans, we will increase League stage for 6 more week. Now its all ready will be long for 8 week, with mine proposed maximum duration of 34-36 week,, then will be long 42 week competition.
Also you will have new rules to determine what clans go where:
1st and runer up from each group go to premier league(these its 12 competitor) 2 best 3rd place for 6 group need to go also in Premier league.
We all know what problem cause these in CL4, where some groups have 5 teams,and some groups have 6 teams.
So its better to have clear rules, no confusion, no complication.

Single matches,these its not team game.
Unlimited from doubles, i must say that im neutral in this settings,i just take these preferences from previous CL.
I think that i specify clearly how much games can play one player in Week/round, you have these in first page.
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby chapcrap on Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:40 pm

I don't care whether or not it is 2 or 3 points for a win. I just wondered what you had thought about the suggestion.

I think it's best to have the groups be broken down evenly. Either with 10-12 clans per group or with limiting it to only 36 clans and saying that the first 36 to sign up will be in. Anyone else gets left out.

I think most clans would agree to have no unlimited in doubles games.

I don't know what Vid_FISO is talking about with 4, 9, 12. I think he is confused.
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby Qwert on Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:47 pm

chapcrap wrote:I don't care whether or not it is 2 or 3 points for a win. I just wondered what you had thought about the suggestion.

I think it's best to have the groups be broken down evenly. Either with 10-12 clans per group or with limiting it to only 36 clans and saying that the first 36 to sign up will be in. Anyone else gets left out.

I think most clans would agree to have no unlimited in doubles games.

I don't know what Vid_FISO is talking about with 4, 9, 12. I think he is confused.


Well these need to be on CLA vote decision, i can not make these limitation.(answer in color question)
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby chapcrap on Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:35 pm

qwert wrote:
chapcrap wrote:I don't care whether or not it is 2 or 3 points for a win. I just wondered what you had thought about the suggestion.

I think it's best to have the groups be broken down evenly. Either with 10-12 clans per group or with limiting it to only 36 clans and saying that the first 36 to sign up will be in. Anyone else gets left out.

I think most clans would agree to have no unlimited in doubles games.

I don't know what Vid_FISO is talking about with 4, 9, 12. I think he is confused.


Well these need to be on CLA vote decision, i can not make these limitation.(answer in color question)

I thought the CD's said the CLA was getting replaced by a group called CD and Friends.
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby Vid_FISO on Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:57 pm

chapcrap wrote:
I don't know what Vid_FISO is talking about with 4, 9, 12. I think he is confused.


2x doubles =4 slots, 3x triples=9 slots, 3x quads=12 slots

no confusion at all
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby chapcrap on Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:04 pm

Vid_FISO wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
I don't know what Vid_FISO is talking about with 4, 9, 12. I think he is confused.


2x doubles =4 slots, 3x triples=9 slots, 3x quads=12 slots

no confusion at all

Oh. I thought you were talking about actual games, not game slots. I don't see any issue with the games that are proposed.
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby Vid_FISO on Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:25 pm

chapcrap wrote:
Vid_FISO wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
I don't know what Vid_FISO is talking about with 4, 9, 12. I think he is confused.


2x doubles =4 slots, 3x triples=9 slots, 3x quads=12 slots

no confusion at all

Oh. I thought you were talking about actual games, not game slots. I don't see any issue with the games that are proposed.


but as the more games are played the more disproportionate it becomes, I can see no reason whatsoever for not having more doubles games, quicker to play in almost all settings and will be probably finished a month before the quads.
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby Qwert on Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:50 pm

Vid_FISO wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
Vid_FISO wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
I don't know what Vid_FISO is talking about with 4, 9, 12. I think he is confused.


2x doubles =4 slots, 3x triples=9 slots, 3x quads=12 slots

no confusion at all

Oh. I thought you were talking about actual games, not game slots. I don't see any issue with the games that are proposed.


but as the more games are played the more disproportionate it becomes, I can see no reason whatsoever for not having more doubles games, quicker to play in almost all settings and will be probably finished a month before the quads.


Man, you realy dont know how many games you have in Clan league. You need to read first page -cometition format, to understand betetr how these work.
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby chapcrap on Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:57 pm

Vid_FISO wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
Vid_FISO wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
I don't know what Vid_FISO is talking about with 4, 9, 12. I think he is confused.


2x doubles =4 slots, 3x triples=9 slots, 3x quads=12 slots

no confusion at all

Oh. I thought you were talking about actual games, not game slots. I don't see any issue with the games that are proposed.


but as the more games are played the more disproportionate it becomes, I can see no reason whatsoever for not having more doubles games, quicker to play in almost all settings and will be probably finished a month before the quads.

I love doubles games. But, there are a lot of people who might say that quads is more skillful and better to show the skill of a team.

As long as the games have some kind of equality, then I'm ok with it. If you make the game spots equal, you have to play 2 doubles games for every quads game. That should not happen, IMO.
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby Vid_FISO on Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:06 pm

qwert wrote:Man, you realy dont know how many games you have in Clan league. You need to read first page -cometition format, to understand betetr how these work.


what's to understand? first post says home and away same week, so 8 doubles slots, 18 trips slots and 24 quad slots to fill. Next set of fixtures come around, the doubles will be finished, trips and quads probably still going. 3rd set of fixtures come around, 2nd game doubles will be finished, some first game trips will be, quads probably not. 4th set of fixtures, some matches will still have 1st set quads in play, doubles long gone and forgotten about.

Invites are sent out, players join, games are played, the less games there are then the more impact one person can have on any match.
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby Vid_FISO on Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:13 pm

chapcrap wrote:I love doubles games. But, there are a lot of people who might say that quads is more skillful and better to show the skill of a team.


Or how good some are at following instructions/ taking convenient absences? Might as well be 1v1 in some cases anyway?

As long as the games have some kind of equality, then I'm ok with it. If you make the game spots equal, you have to play 2 doubles games for every quads game. That should not happen, IMO.


No idea whether 6 doubles games would be too many or too difficult for some to manage (control?) but 2 is surely too few?
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby Leehar on Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:35 am

chapcrap wrote:I think most clans would agree to have no unlimited in doubles games.

I don't like the setting much either, but Tainaron has proved it's a viable option for team games, so I see no reason to limit it...
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby niMic on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:42 am

Vid_FISO wrote:
chapcrap wrote:I love doubles games. But, there are a lot of people who might say that quads is more skillful and better to show the skill of a team.


Or how good some are at following instructions/ taking convenient absences? Might as well be 1v1 in some cases anyway?


If you're convinced the only reason you can lose is that the other team are cheating, then it doesn't matter if it's Quads, Trips, Doubles or speed assdoodles.
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby Qwert on Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:24 am

AT these moment if we use ranking clan for CL5, taking performance in Cl4, these how we look ranking:
1 AOC
2 KORT
3 EMP
4 PACK
5 IA
6 TOFU
7 AFOS
8 TSM
9 MYT
10 OSA
11 TFFS
12 ID
13 LOW
14 PIG
15 VDLL
16 DYN
17 WAR
18 BOFM
19 OTP
20 LEG
21 HH
22 KOA
23 GR
24 MD
25 FOED
26 TNC
27 1RFG
28 TLW
29 G1
30 LHDD
31 AKA
32 DBC
33 MM
34 SOH
35 RA
36 IF
37 LOTZ
38 DB
39 MB
(note-for now aoc are much close to be no1 clan in CL4)

Ofcourse its also depend what clan will register for CL5, for example if AKA not register, and DBC register,then DBC will go up for one place, but if MD also dont register,then DBC will go up for 2 place,etc,etc.
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby crazy4catnip on Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:43 pm

And how would new clans be folded into the ranking?

-- crazy4catnip
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby TheMissionary on Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:58 pm

I support the qualification as opposed to previous league rankings. This league is a different format, so some performances may be changed. Also there have been some clans that have grown quite a bit since CL4. I think it would unfair to them to use something that isn't reflected up to date. Maybe the F400 should be used instead?

Edit: New clans could be ranked based on challenges or date formed if no challenges or equal challenges.
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby Qwert on Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:52 am

crazy4catnip wrote:And how would new clans be folded into the ranking?

-- crazy4catnip

They will go in 6 pot.

TheMissionary wrote:I support the qualification as opposed to previous league rankings. This league is a different format, so some performances may be changed. Also there have been some clans that have grown quite a bit since CL4. I think it would unfair to them to use something that isn't reflected up to date. Maybe the F400 should be used instead?

Edit: New clans could be ranked based on challenges or date formed if no challenges or equal challenges.


not reflected up to date? Cl4 are recent competition, who are still not over. Its will be good to point what its wrong with ranking based on CL4 performance,and what its not up to date? I think that will be unfair not ranked AOC to no2 position(or no1 position if they win a Division 1) and to be ranked on no5 position how f400 show. All new clans who are not play in Cl4 will be placed on pot 6. Nobody can know where will play in qualification groups, because draw are online(explained in page 1), and everybody will have chance to play for top League.
these its top 6 in CL4
1 AOC-or Kort
2 KORT-or Aoc
3 EMP
4 PACK
5 IA
6 TOFU
-and these its top 6 in f400
1 KORT
2 TOFU
3 PACK
4 EMP
5 AOC
6 TSM
--------------------------------- now top 6 in Cl4 will be placed in pot 1, and each will be seed no1 in each qualification group. Now what its out of date-F400 or CL4?
When i look f400 say-IA are not top 6,, but CL4 say opposite.
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby Leehar on Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:54 am

remember in the latest rankings that should come out in a coupla days, AoC are likely to jump in to the top 4 if not top 3, so it's still relatively tight at the top between the 2 ranking systems

With that said, overall f400 seems a better benchmark for clan league placings, specially if you can get an up-to-date version when assigning seeds
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby chapcrap on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:00 pm

Leehar wrote:remember in the latest rankings that should come out in a coupla days, AoC are likely to jump in to the top 4 if not top 3, so it's still relatively tight at the top between the 2 ranking systems

With that said, overall f400 seems a better benchmark for clan league placings, specially if you can get an up-to-date version when assigning seeds

I agree with this. Don't use CL4.
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby Qwert on Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:51 pm

mine biggest concern with f400, its that some clan who are show good performance in 2011, and now show bad performance in CL4, could be awarded with better Clan League seed, then what he deserve. Sometime good scores in past can hold you in high position for long period,and you could have benefit, and if you include only CL4 score, then you can get right score for certain competition . I can give you several examples
------------------------------------------------------------
these its extreme difference between two ranking
F400
9 foed
24 tffs
21 mm

CL4
25 foed
11 tffs
33 mm
------------------------------------------------
and these is almost identical

f400
13 low
20 koa
30 lhdd
23 gr
35 soh
27 g1
28 1rfg
38 db

cl4
13 low
22 koa
30 lhdd
34 soh
23 gr
29 g1
27 1rfg
38 db
-------------
to conclude -you can have extreme bad performance in Clan League, and still can be awarded in f400, and these its unfair award.
Many clan can oppose and say " dont use f400 its not fair for Clan league"
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Re: CC Clan League 5 - proposed format

Postby chapcrap on Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:59 pm

qwert wrote:Many clan can oppose and say " dont use f400 its not fair for Clan league"

I haven't heard anyone opposed to using F400 yet.

qwert wrote:mine biggest concern with f400, its that some clan who are show good performance in 2011, and now show bad performance in CL4, could be awarded with better Clan League seed, then what he deserve. Sometime good scores in past can hold you in high position for long period,and you could have benefit, and if you include only CL4 score, then you can get right score for certain competition.

Using CL4 is like using one war or one performance to judge a clan. That's a bad idea, IMO. Secondly, a single good performance in 2011 won't be a large factor because the wars deteriorate in value as time goes on. And just a single war would not make a large difference if it is that old.
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