The Official Clan Sitting Rules (Old Version)

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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby crispybits on Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:40 pm

Why - in a clan v clan fight, if both clans agree to use subs and the subs all come from the clans, then it gives the clans control over their own fights.

I could even imagine that on top of the "no individual player may play more than 6 out of 10 games in any set" you would also have "no player is allowed to be named sub in more than 4 of the 10 games in any set" kind of conditions.

If the subs are named in advance it doesnt allow sneakiness because everything is above board and agreed beforehand. If clans rig it so that one person ends up playing all their games and every sub game possible then that's been agreed just fine already. It's up to the clans to police their own wars, this just gives them the tools to do so, and to allow for sits without wrecking their months and months of team play if someone goes off the grid.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby HardAttack on Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:45 pm

catnipdreams wrote:I feel strongly that legitimate sitting needs to be as painless and easy for the person doing the sitting as possible. A sitter is adding to their time spent on CC; extra time that could have been used differently is now being used to assist another player. To properly sit a turn in a game that you aren't part of takes a considerable amount of time. The team chat needs to be read to understand the strategy being used, and a new board has to be carefully examined to fully understand the current status of the game, before the turn is taken. We need to be very careful not to significantly add to this burden.

Some mention has been made of eliminating sitting altogether. This is completely unacceptable to me. I put a considerable amount of time into my team games, and to have those games ruined because a teammate cannot play his/her turns for understandable real life reasons is ridiculous. I also don't want to let my teammates down. Just because I might have a real life issue that is more important than taking a turn in a game, should they suffer for it? A simple request for sitting, and the conflict between whatever is going on in my real life, and my desire to not let my teammates down, is easily avoided.

Requiring that the sitter's name be posted in open game chat when the turn is taken seems like a simple thing to do. Some allowance needs to be made for a sitter occasionally forgetting to post in open game chat; that is normal human error. Doing random IP checks seems like a reasonable way to uncover any systematic abuse.

I understand why a time limit of one hour for emergency sitting has been proposed, but it also potentially excessively burdens a sitter. The 3 am example has been mentioned before; that is a very valid concern. Waking up in the middle of the night to take a friend's turn when there is a reasonable expectation that it would be missed, and could have been sat earlier at a more convenient time, is not fun.

It seems to me that this is all about transparency. If it is known exactly who is sitting, and when that sitting occurs, then abuses can be easily identified. Until a software sitting function is implemented, perhaps the requirement to identify yourself in open game chat if you sit for someone, plus the random IP checks, is sufficient? That doesn't seem excessively burdensome. Allow sitting to occur at any point during the 24 hour cycle; this is easiest for sitters. Look for patterns of abuse that lead to an unfair advantage, and react accordingly. Strongly encourage the new site owner to implement a proper sitting function as a priority.

I also really like allowing individual clans to negotiate sitting terms along with other clan war terms. The negotiated parameters can be as precise (or not) as the clans involved desire them to be. This allows maximum flexibility, while minimizing the impact on legitimate sitters.


Meaowww =D>

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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:56 pm

crispybits wrote:Why - in a clan v clan fight, if both clans agree to use subs and the subs all come from the clans, then it gives the clans control over their own fights.

I could even imagine that on top of the "no individual player may play more than 6 out of 10 games in any set" you would also have "no player is allowed to be named sub in more than 4 of the 10 games in any set" kind of conditions.

If the subs are named in advance it doesnt allow sneakiness because everything is above board and agreed beforehand. If clans rig it so that one person ends up playing all their games and every sub game possible then that's been agreed just fine already. It's up to the clans to police their own wars, this just gives them the tools to do so, and to allow for sits without wrecking their months and months of team play if someone goes off the grid.


Cuz: Clan one- Uses subs only when appropriate
Clan two- Uses subs when most advantageous

If the subs are third party there's no issue whatever. Honestly I'm not framing this solely in the context of my own clan but I would like to know which clan really is the best. I'm sick of not caring who the top clans are because at least some of them are corrupt and there's no way of knowing who.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby IcePack on Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:59 pm

No way am I allowing third parties to play my games. Sorry.
But no third party is going to care as much about reading pages of chat as yourself, or someone on your team.

Ain't gunna happen.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:01 am

IcePack wrote:No way am I allowing third parties to play my games. Sorry.
But no third party is going to care as much about reading pages of chat as yourself, or someone on your team.

Ain't gunna happen.


It's admittedly imperfect but would you rather miss a turn instead?
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Lindax on Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:15 am

Foxglove wrote:Second, I think you misunderstand my motivations. I actually don't care about points and individual games. What I enjoy on this site now are clan challenges, and the stakes of a missed turn are (potentially) a lot higher than just some lost points. What if I missed a turn that lost a game that lost a clan challenge? Then I would be responsible for ruining the efforts of 25 people for 9 months of clan warring? That seems unreasonable to me. If I only played standard non-team, non-clan games I wouldn't care about missing turns.


Mmmm.... This is interesting. I don't care about points and I'm passed caring about clan games. All I care about now is individual games.

There are various reasons I got fed up with the clan scene. One reason is playing clan wars and losing them because of one clan member regularly missing turns. Did I ever think it was ok to "bend the rules" to avoid losing a war because of that? Nope, I was always for getting rid of that player and make sure you have players in a clan war that take their turns (in other words: players that don't go AWOL on a regular basis). Another reason is that some clans take clan wars that serious that they will "bend the rules" to make sure they will not lose a war because of a player going AWOL or a player making a wrong move. This resulting in not playing the game against your opponents in the game, but the best player(s) in the other clan. What's the fun in that? Play your best, have your opponents play their best, and see who comes out as the winner (more often than not decided by the dice or cards anyway).

As I said before, if you can't play the game and/or take your turns, you should not be in a clan war or tournament.

Obviously the practices being talked about here, and bending the rules by some, give the players like myself (honest, following the rules, not seeking advice for every turn, play the best you can, not having turns being taken for you, etc.,etc.) a big disadvantage.

I'm pretty sure the "best clans" wouldn't be where they are if all their players were like me. I'm not saying they are not good, and they have many good players, but the difference between clans would be a lot less if they would stop "bending the rules". Any effort to stop those practices will get my vote. And once we're all on equal footing, I may even consider joining a clan again.

For the record: To my knowledge none of the clans I was a member of, ever engaged in "bending the rules".

Lx

PS: I wish I would be able to get my point across more eloquently, but alas, this will have to do.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:38 am

I am equally disgruntled with the state of affairs.
The fat bloated clans with the do-or-die stance towards wars, rule-bending, etc. need to unwrap their egos from their online gaming experience. There are certain clans out there that I have much respect for due to their skills combined with integrity. For example: The Pack. I have had the privilege of playing with some of these guys and they are stand-up players. This was way back when I started playing and I was looking for a clan. I played with their leaders and they were not sketchy a bit and I am pretty critical of this sort of thing lol. Nobody told me what to do, we discussed. I'm not meaning to go off on a tangent, just want to make it clear that I'm not irrationally and randomly attacking the more competitive clans, just the ones who smell fishy. It's pretty obvious to someone not completely wrapped up in their clan standing who is dirty and who is not. I don't trust the bloated fatty clans, they didn't get that way playing the straight and narrow. I can't see any other way to make them change than by force since they are obviously blinded by the ambition to win wars.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby spiesr on Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:49 am

crispybits wrote:Why - in a clan v clan fight, if both clans agree to use subs and the subs all come from the clans, then it gives the clans control over their own fights.

I could even imagine that on top of the "no individual player may play more than 6 out of 10 games in any set" you would also have "no player is allowed to be named sub in more than 4 of the 10 games in any set" kind of conditions.

If the subs are named in advance it doesnt allow sneakiness because everything is above board and agreed beforehand. If clans rig it so that one person ends up playing all their games and every sub game possible then that's been agreed just fine already. It's up to the clans to police their own wars, this just gives them the tools to do so, and to allow for sits without wrecking their months and months of team play if someone goes off the grid.
Couldn't this setup lead to a situation where if a Clan has a star player that is significantly better than the rank and file members that it would be to their (perceived at least) advantage to make sure that player actually ends up subbing in the maximum number of games allowed? IE it encourages them to have some of their lesser members "going missing." Isn't that the exact sort of abuse that any rules would want to prevent?
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby macbone on Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:24 am

The bottom line is we need that sitter feature that's been in the works for a while. Once it's implemented, all players will at least be operating under the same prescribed and enforced guidelines due to the software in place.

Until we do, the rules on p.1 will have to do. I'd still like the time limit to be within 2 hours of the turn's end rather than 1 hour, but I can understand that that might seem like too much of a cushion for some folks.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby perchorin on Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:26 am

macbone wrote:The bottom line is we need that sitter feature that's been in the works for a while. Once it's implemented, all players will at least be operating under the same prescribed and enforced guidelines due to the software in place.

Until we do, the rules on p.1 will have to do. I'd still like the time limit to be within 2 hours of the turn's end rather than 1 hour, but I can understand that that might seem like too much of a cushion for some folks.

Exactly what I was thinking on all points. With the regime change does anyone know if that feature is still something "coming soon"?
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby macbone on Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:29 am

They're still sorting out the changeover from what I understand. But as hot as this topic's been, I'd hope it would be given priority next after everything urgent has been addressed.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby greenoaks on Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:33 am

Funkyterrance wrote:I am equally disgruntled with the state of affairs.
The fat bloated clans with the do-or-die stance towards wars, rule-bending, etc. need to unwrap their egos from their online gaming experience. There are certain clans out there that I have much respect for due to their skills combined with integrity. For example: The Pack. I have had the privilege of playing with some of these guys and they are stand-up players. This was way back when I started playing and I was looking for a clan. I played with their leaders and they were not sketchy a bit and I am pretty critical of this sort of thing lol. Nobody told me what to do, we discussed. I'm not meaning to go off on a tangent, just want to make it clear that I'm not irrationally and randomly attacking the more competitive clans, just the ones who smell fishy. It's pretty obvious to someone not completely wrapped up in their clan standing who is dirty and who is not. I don't trust the bloated fatty clans, they didn't get that way playing the straight and narrow. I can't see any other way to make them change than by force since they are obviously blinded by the ambition to win wars.

i had the opposite experience with them.

they were constantly logging into my account to take turns when i was online. it got so bad i changed my password and did not inform them so they refused to use me in any more games.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby crispybits on Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:57 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
crispybits wrote:Why - in a clan v clan fight, if both clans agree to use subs and the subs all come from the clans, then it gives the clans control over their own fights.

I could even imagine that on top of the "no individual player may play more than 6 out of 10 games in any set" you would also have "no player is allowed to be named sub in more than 4 of the 10 games in any set" kind of conditions.

If the subs are named in advance it doesnt allow sneakiness because everything is above board and agreed beforehand. If clans rig it so that one person ends up playing all their games and every sub game possible then that's been agreed just fine already. It's up to the clans to police their own wars, this just gives them the tools to do so, and to allow for sits without wrecking their months and months of team play if someone goes off the grid.


Cuz: Clan one- Uses subs only when appropriate
Clan two- Uses subs when most advantageous

If the subs are third party there's no issue whatever. Honestly I'm not framing this solely in the context of my own clan but I would like to know which clan really is the best. I'm sick of not caring who the top clans are because at least some of them are corrupt and there's no way of knowing who.


Then if you are leading a clan or part of a clan and you start talking about having a war with a clan that is known to play like this, you set the conditions at "no subs or no war". The ones who are bending any rule they can will soon find that the other clans police it out of existence. People talk.

As said third party is not ever gonna be acceptable to too many people because a third party player has no interest in playing well or making sure they make all the turns remaining, and under the system I proposed they would be in that game until the end from that point.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Nicky15 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:19 am

Howdy Folks.

An awful lot of input here. So we are just going to remind everyone of these rules and what they mean as some are over analysing, misunderstanding this or plainly not reading things properly.

The term "vacation" is being used to cover any extended absence from the site, we can't possibly list every single eventuality that would cause you to be away from your pc.

If you have legitimately been asked to sit whether this is to cover 12 hours or 2 weeks then you refer to rule 3.

3, Sitting for the purpose of covering an extended break from the site can carry on as normal, turns can be taken whenever it is convenient, the sitter can add to chat, but the player on vacation must not take turns themselves during this time or add to game chat. Account sitting is for holidays, vacations and emergencies only.


Where possible please communicate via pm to cover yourself.

If you have had no contact from the player who is going to miss a turn, you cannot honestly say they aren't going to make their turn for example 3 hours in advance. They may have every intention of taking their turn. So emergency sitting to cover this situation would be an hour or less, as now the turn is actually in danger of being missed.

We will draft a more detailed guideline of how to cover a person who has gone awol for a period of time, as waiting you are down to an hour in each game seems unpractical. We will do this is CDF with clan reps.

As far as the rest goes, Lets make this very clear. Being in someone elses account for any other purpose than sitting a turn has always been against site rules and always will be

BGtheBrain wrote:
Being on another player's account for ANY reasons other than taking turns when they are in danger of missing a turn, or posting to necessary Tournament or Clan related public forum topics, is not allowed. Abuse of this privilege can be considered account sharing and could result in a Bust for both accounts.

This misunderstanding is far more common than we expected, and is a very good example of what we meant when we said
2, The lines of what is acceptable in the Clan World have become somewhat blurred.




...........................................................................................................................

As far a structured list of punishments goes. This will come. Setting a strict list of rules immediately could have had negative consequences. We didn't know exactly what we would face day to day. The last thing we want is to see is innocent members being banned for minor explainable things. That would destroy our clan world. A more structure list will be formed in the CDF with clan reps.

Our common sense approach. Lets take rule one for example.

1, The announcing in chat, of the name of the person who has covered a turn will now be mandatory.


Some examples.

Player one is covering player twos week vacation to the Bahamas. He takes the turns posting in most but forgets the odd one.

No infraction here, there is no intent to deceive its just a simple oversight.

Player one covers Player twos turn with 4 hours left on the clock, player one does not post to say he has covered. Player two has been around in the last 24 hours and taken his own turns.

This is an infraction. Now while player one may have had permission to take a turn not posting just makes this look suspicious, and will give you less chance of defending yourself. You will earn you a noted or a warning depending on how long there was left on the clock.

Our advice is to use common sense if you cover a turn, just post to say why. If you have a legitimate reason for doing so you will be fine. If you don't post to say you have covered a turn you will be breaking the rules. If someone is blatantly taking advantage they will be dealt with.

................................................................................................................................................................

We thank you for the huge volume of input. Some of you have clearly taken considerable time out of your lives to comment on what is obviously a very emotive issue. We can not respond to every individual comment and suggestion but hopefully our responses have at least clarified some of they key questions.

These rules will come into force tomorrow and there are no immediate plans to make any modifications.

Having said all that, we will take all the existing feedback on board and monitor this very closely over the coming weeks and months. We don't expect it to be perfect and it's inevitable that some refinements will need to be made along the way. We just ask that you trust us.

Every clan will have a representative in a new group which will continue to discuss these issues and we would ask that you pass your ongoing feedback to that individual as we move forward.

Thanks

The CD Team
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Vid_FISO on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:23 am

Thanks for the clarification Nicky15

Before this discussion is taken elsewhere, one suggestion for prolonged sitting that some do at present - "player X is away for several days/ week or two (maybe brief reason added) and I'll be covering his moves in his absence"

Player X returns posts "I'm back" and that does the trick for everyone.

These rules are for clan sitting but do they encompass an absent player's other games? Are there going to be separate rules for tourney play and other games? Obviously when a player is known to be away for a period then sitters will cover all games, not just clan games. Those that play a lot of varied tourneys can often be playing both with and against a number of clan mates making it impossible for one sitter to cover all games.

I presume (but have no knowledge one way or the other) that there will be some with the permanent log in details of a friend/ clan mate will also have been jumping into non-clan games as and when.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby london69 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:41 am

how do i start a clan
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Ickyketseddie on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:59 am

london69 wrote:how do i start a clan


viewforum.php?f=440

Have a read in there.. Your in totally the wrong place here. :D
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Nicky15 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:30 am

Vid_FISO wrote:Before this discussion is taken elsewhere, one suggestion for prolonged sitting that some do at present - "player X is away for several days/ week or two (maybe brief reason added) and I'll be covering his moves in his absence "Player X returns posts "I'm back" and that does the trick for everyone.


This is a great practice and we would encourage everyone to do this.


Vid_FISO wrote: These rules are for clan sitting but do they encompass an absent player's other games? Are there going to be separate rules for tourney play and other games? Obviously when a player is known to be away for a period then sitters will cover all games, not just clan games. Those that play a lot of varied tourneys can often be playing both with and against a number of clan mates making it impossible for one sitter to cover all games.



These rules are for the clan arena only. Other games that aren't clan related you must adhere to general site rules. So you're right, you must not cover a turn in a game you are an opponent in, so you have no choice but to get another sitter to do so.

Are you going to be your Clans rep in CDF Viso ?
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby HardAttack on Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:34 am

One question i have got to ask,
say my team mate is on vacation or some other sort of unavailability, so i m sitter, then if there is a rule or not to tell me when i can take his/her turn as his/her account sitter i am...In other words, if i can take the turn of player i am account sitting in the 1st hour or 23rd hour of 24 hour period...
Thanks in advance.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby greenoaks on Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:41 am

HardAttack wrote:One question i have got to ask,
say my team mate is on vacation or some other sort of unavailability, so i m sitter, then if there is a rule or not to tell me when i can take his/her turn as his/her account sitter i am...In other words, if i can take the turn of player i am account sitting in the 1st hour or 23rd hour of 24 hour period...
Thanks in advance.

if he is on vacation you can take his turns whenever is convenient for you as he will NOT be taking any turns himself for the duration of the vacation
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Vid_FISO on Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:43 am

Nicky15 wrote:Are you going to be your Clans rep in CDF Viso ?


Either crispybits or myself it would seem as we're both taking a strong interest in the topic.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Nicky15 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:54 am

greenoaks wrote:
HardAttack wrote:One question i have got to ask,
say my team mate is on vacation or some other sort of unavailability, so i m sitter, then if there is a rule or not to tell me when i can take his/her turn as his/her account sitter i am...In other words, if i can take the turn of player i am account sitting in the 1st hour or 23rd hour of 24 hour period...
Thanks in advance.

if he is on vacation you can take his turns whenever is convenient for you as he will NOT be taking any turns himself for the duration of the vacation


This is correct

3, Sitting for the purpose of covering an extended break from the site can carry on as normal, turns can be taken whenever it is convenient, the sitter can add to chat, but the player on vacation must not take turns themselves during this time or add to game chat. Account sitting is for holidays, vacations and emergencies only.


Perhaps I should put in a definition of vacation. The term "vacation" is being used to cover any extended absence from the site where you would require a sitter. Edit I have added a definition to the rules on the 1st page.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby greenoaks on Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:25 am

Nicky15 wrote:Perhaps I should put in a definition of vacation. The term "vacation" is being used to cover any extended absence from the site where you would require a sitter. Edit I have added a definition to the rules on the 1st page.


what needs to be clarified is a Vacation is not you going on holidays (although it may be). A Vacation is an extended absence from CC.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby jetsetwilly on Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:32 am

greenoaks wrote:
Nicky15 wrote:Perhaps I should put in a definition of vacation. The term "vacation" is being used to cover any extended absence from the site where you would require a sitter. Edit I have added a definition to the rules on the 1st page.


what needs to be clarified is a Vacation is not you going on holidays (although it may be). A Vacation is an extended absence from CC.


That is correct, we don't care if you are in the Bahamas, moving house or stuck in a tree. Any extended period of time during which you can not play the game is a site vacation as it were.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby HardAttack on Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:35 am

jetsetwilly wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
Nicky15 wrote:Perhaps I should put in a definition of vacation. The term "vacation" is being used to cover any extended absence from the site where you would require a sitter. Edit I have added a definition to the rules on the 1st page.


what needs to be clarified is a Vacation is not you going on holidays (although it may be). A Vacation is an extended absence from CC.


That is correct, we don't care if you are in the Bahamas, moving house or stuck in a tree. Any extended period of time during which you can not play the game is a site vacation as it were.


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