The Official Clan Sitting Rules (Old Version)

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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby jetsetwilly on Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:49 am

josko.ri wrote:It is no without reason that one part of my post is bold, and other part are not. the bold part is the most important, so I expect the most reply and rules improving regarding that part.


So to the bold part.

I think you raise a good point and it's not one that this set of rules directly addresses. I would like to think that the introduction of these rules would reduce the impact of what you are talking about because we expect to see less account sitting anyway.

The question of whether someone who uses their maximum game allocation and then sits a considerable number of games on top is a different one but it's one that we would be happy to take away and discuss too.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby josko.ri on Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:55 am

jetsetwilly wrote:
josko.ri wrote:It is no without reason that one part of my post is bold, and other part are not. the bold part is the most important, so I expect the most reply and rules improving regarding that part.


So to the bold part.

I think you raise a good point and it's not one that this set of rules directly addresses. I would like to think that the introduction of these rules would reduce the impact of what you are talking about because we expect to see less account sitting anyway.

The question of whether someone who uses their maximum game allocation and then sits a considerable number of games on top is a different one but it's one that we would be happy to take away and discuss too.

That is just extreme case. However, there are also cases when someone plays one less game than maximum but sits for 10 or more players, 1 turn or more, depends on case. in that case it is also overused player. The right direction would be make sitting count, like every turn sat increase game count of sitter by 0,5. or by 0,33 or 0,25 or whatever. but just giving you right direction to adress that problem, which is in my opinion the bigest in clan sitting practice, and in no word is adressed in these rules, which is another fact which convinces me more these rules are just anti-josko rules, and not clan sitting problems rules. And you know that this problems are not from yesterday, it was already discussed and mentioned on many instances before when speaking about sitting issues.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby jetsetwilly on Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:03 am

josko.ri wrote:
jetsetwilly wrote:
josko.ri wrote:It is no without reason that one part of my post is bold, and other part are not. the bold part is the most important, so I expect the most reply and rules improving regarding that part.


So to the bold part.

I think you raise a good point and it's not one that this set of rules directly addresses. I would like to think that the introduction of these rules would reduce the impact of what you are talking about because we expect to see less account sitting anyway.

The question of whether someone who uses their maximum game allocation and then sits a considerable number of games on top is a different one but it's one that we would be happy to take away and discuss too.

That is just extreme case. However, there are also cases when someone plays one less game than maximum but sits for 10 or more players, 1 turn or more, depends on case. in that case it is also overused player. The right direction would be make sitting count, like every turn sat increase game count of sitter by 0,5. or by 0,33 or 0,25 or whatever. but just giving you right direction to adress that problem, which is in my opinion the bigest in clan sitting practice, and in no word is adressed in these rules, which is another fact which convinces me more these rules are just anti-josko rules, and not clan sitting problems rules.


Well we can only assure you that these aren't anti-Josko rules and I can say that I think your main point here is worthy of further discussion. Given we don't know in advance how many turns a sitter will sit, how would we go about managing a rule here ? Actually Josko let's not discuss this here. Please pm the CD's separately to discuss this point for future consideration.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby josko.ri on Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:08 am

jetsetwilly wrote:Given we don't know in advance how many turns a sitter will sit, how would we go about managing a rule here ? Actually Josko let's not discuss this here. Please pm the CD's separately to discuss this point for future consideration.

Again, everyone has right to discuss here, just josko need to use pm?

You can manage it that someone, who is aware his own game load is high, do the count by himself. if I play 18/20 games by myself, so 2 more are allowed, then I know that I can sit only 4 turns (in case of 0,5 marker) so when I sit 4 turns then I am not allowed to sat a single more turns, so player who need sitting need to find another sitter.

And here is now duty to post sitting info in chat, so opponents will also be able to check it if they are interested.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby jetsetwilly on Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:13 am

josko.ri wrote:
jetsetwilly wrote:Given we don't know in advance how many turns a sitter will sit, how would we go about managing a rule here ? Actually Josko let's not discuss this here. Please pm the CD's separately to discuss this point for future consideration.

Again, everyone has right to discuss here, just josko need to use pm?

You can manage it that someone, who is aware his own game load is high, do the count by himself. if I play 18/20 games by myself, so 2 more are allowed, then I know that I can sit only 4 turns (in case of 0,5 marker) so when I sit 4 turns then I am not allowed to sat a single more turns, so player who need sitting need to find another sitter.

And here is now duty to post sitting info in chat, so opponents will also be able to check it if they are interested.


We just don't want this particular thread to get bogged down in additional discussions outside of the current set of rules. We can cover it in a different thread if needs be but let's allow us to deliver this first. We can consider future changes/additional rules when the dust has settled.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby azezzo on Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:28 am

What a bunch of crap, only on vacation?, only within the last hour b4 a turn expires, Really?
Why only on vacation? In my own life, I work 12-16 hour days without advanced warning from my employer sometimes and have texted my team mates to cover my turns for me, or how about if your power goes out and you lose internet for awhile, why not call for help from a clan member to cover for you? Adding rules upon rules does not make this game / site any more enjoyable, If I am asked to cover for a team mate, or vice versa, why should I sit home and wait to play his turn at the last hour, I see nothing wrong with simply making sure the turn is not missed. I really dont see these 2 issues as being anything to worry about in clan games, its clan against clan, so in my opinion, so long as a clan member is playing, I dont care who it is, or when it is.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Nicky15 on Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:46 am

azezzo wrote:What a bunch of crap, only on vacation?, only within the last hour b4 a turn expires, Really?
Why only on vacation? In my own life, I work 12-16 hour days without advanced warning from my employer sometimes and have texted my team mates to cover my turns for me, or how about if your power goes out and you lose internet for awhile, why not call for help from a clan member to cover for you? Adding rules upon rules does not make this game / site any more enjoyable, If I am asked to cover for a team mate, or vice versa, why should I sit home and wait to play his turn at the last hour, I see nothing wrong with simply making sure the turn is not missed. I really dont see these 2 issues as being anything to worry about in clan games, its clan against clan, so in my opinion, so long as a clan member is playing, I dont care who it is, or when it is.


Now you are taking this too literally. If you have been asked to cover then that is a different story. It is when a player has gone awol that this hour rule applies. You can't simply jump into someones account and take turns when it suits you. This borders on account sharing. If you have had no contact from the player involved, how do you know they wont be taking their turns? The hour mark has been set as this is a fair indicator that a turn actually is in danger of being missed. This rule is also in place to stamp out the practice that it is ok to leave turns and others will pick them up for you. Everyone should become responsible for their own accounts. Having said all this if you are constantly requiring a sitter and not taking your own turns, then you should not be entering games.

The players on the team sheet should be the ones who actually play the game. Not just anyone from the clan. What is to stop Clans from fielding teams then getting the best player in the clan to take their turns for them. Do you want to play vs a few people or play a clan.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby benga on Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:57 am

For the bold, it makes a huge difference are you sitting the 1st turn for the whole team
or for a turn when the game has already been decided, josko is still trying to come off here
from higher ground.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby macbone on Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:06 am

I've read the first post, the first page, and the posts so far on this page, so I haven't covered everything, but I agree with most of this. Perhaps BW's point about players who miss one weekend a month has been covered, but to me that's covered under sitting for someone on vacation, like for National Guard drill in the US.

I'd like to see the hour limit be moved to 2 hours, though. If someone's in danger of missing a turn, that player's sitters aren't always online then, and 2 hours gives you enough time to catch someone (and turns still get missed even with this in play).

Otherwise, I'm down with the guidelines outlined in the first post. However, the punishments seem too broad-brushed (my apologies if they've been amended on p. 2-4). We need to know exactly what will happen for the first offense, the second offense, and so on.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Nicky15 on Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:21 am

macbone wrote:I've read the first post, the first page, and the posts so far on this page, so I haven't covered everything, but I agree with most of this. Perhaps BW's point about players who miss one weekend a month has been covered, but to me that's covered under sitting for someone on vacation, like for National Guard drill in the US.

I'd like to see the hour limit be moved to 2 hours, though. If someone's in danger of missing a turn, that player's sitters aren't always online then, and 2 hours gives you enough time to catch someone (and turns still get missed even with this in play).

Otherwise, I'm down with the guidelines outlined in the first post. However, the punishments seem too broad-brushed (my apologies if they've been amended on p. 2-4). We need to know exactly what will happen for the first offense, the second offense, and so on.


A discussion with Clan reps will start shortly. In this discussion we will examine the best way to determine a punishment scale.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Nicky15 on Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:37 am

Now we will listen. Points will be raised in Cd and friends. All clans will have a representative. And it will be this reps responsibility to portray their clans views. Any amendments will be voted on in there.
We can't please everyone. So we have to represent what is best for the vast majority.
Weekend sitting will be voted on, as well as the hour mark. In regards to the unlimited rule, this is another example of a minor thing that can be discussed in the group. What we were keen to do was prevent clans making any agreement that gives them any potential unfair advantage. If it is deemed that this isn't the case we will remove that rule.

josko.ri wrote:As a conclusion, the main problem of sitting in clan wars those rules did not adress, and it is over usage of player by his sitting. names are not important but actions are important, so I will not mention names... in Clan League 4, Phase 3, one my opponent has played maximal number of games allowed by himself, and also sat for many players. in my opinion, this is real problem in sitting from clan perspective. if someone plays 28/28 allowed games by himself, and sit at least one turn, he is then overused player in the challenge as he played more than maximum allowed. I regret that this rules do not allow part time players to have fun, but still allow some players to be involved in their challenges more than they should, by playing maximal games by themselves and going over the limit by sitting for others. That is main problem in clan sitting policy, and until this will be solved by rules, there will exist players who are going around that rules to get unfair advantage to their clan.


Josko, these rules were not made for you. These these rules are to make a fair and level playing field for everyone.

We expect to see a dramatic reduction in sitting as players should not be entered into games that they can't play. Your point will be added to the discussion in the user group and all clans will get to vote on it. Clans must use common sense and do what they can to avoid allegations of abuse. Having the best players in the clan sit all the games, does give that clan an unfair advantage. Sitting duties should be spread evenly amongst the clan as far as possible.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby bragsie on Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:46 am

We the bastards all ready have a fixed sitting rule with in our group, it's quite simple really, 2 hours or less, unless otherwise stated in a pm, that's it, how simple is that, people tell me when they are away or otherwise busy with life issues and I don't put them in, cuts out all the red tape, people that abuse the rule get kicked out of the clan, simple, if they forget to put there names to the game they have sat for they are told by the player they are sitting for.

Why over complicate a simple situation with new rules.

If people are abusing sitting by taking certain games to help the clan win then there is a problem and it needs to be dealt with by the clans involved. No nonsense just cut the player,
I don't see a problem with people unable to play most weekends, it's family time, and my life with my family is far more important. Yes I am new but I give my all to my clan and sit for people where I can.

This needs a complete rewrite and cut down to simple terms, else it will stifle and snuff out the fun that is clan

Feel free to pm me, love hate mail

Also not trying to dis you guys for the hard work you do
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Ickyketseddie on Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:53 am

I think this is a great start. Personnally i think people are getting a little caught up in the details here. If everyone takes a step back i think they'll realise that most of that clans sitting practices are perfectly fine as they are. This is only procedures put in place to prevent sitting abuse that comes with regular sitting.

Also where people are calling for concrete numbers and rules, i'm agaist this also. I think the right desicion has been made here. We've all seen that when you have rules like that in place there are always those that will seek to abuse them and find the loopholes to maximise there gain rather than just playing the game as it was intended. Take our former conquerer for example.

With the proposed ruleset there is plenty of room for comman sense calls to be made. Personnally i think this is the only way you will cover every possible situation. That way if someone is trying it on within a hairs width of the rules they can be pulled up without quoting black and white to try any get away with it, when everyone knows whats really going on. The real question here is do you trust Bruce and the CD team to make the correct desions when these incidents arrise? Well, you have my full support.

The only thing in the ruleset i disagree with is this Unlimited Forts stuff. I dont see that the rules should be specific to any game setting/map preference. This clearly seems to have been included do to the recent Josko case and is only really applicable in that case because the said player is well known for his ability in that area. If it was anyone else it could easily be more of a handicap than an advantage and punishing it would be equally ridiculas. This could easily be said about more than a couple of complex maps on CC too.

My 2p anyway.

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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Koganosi on Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:51 am

2, Emergency cover may only be given if the person really is in danger of missing a turn. Therefore a turn can only be covered if there is an hour or less left on the clock. But steps must be taken to contact the player before hand.

I know some peeps in RL I sit in with my clan, they sometimes text me when they are gonna miss a turn? I took up contact with them then and can cover with the emergency, and the 1 hour rule thingie. But how can I prove to you guys then that I contacted them? If someone ever makes a C&A report or something on it?

Urs

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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby jetsetwilly on Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:59 am

Koganosi wrote:2, Emergency cover may only be given if the person really is in danger of missing a turn. Therefore a turn can only be covered if there is an hour or less left on the clock. But steps must be taken to contact the player before hand.

I know some peeps in RL I sit in with my clan, they sometimes text me when they are gonna miss a turn? I took up contact with them then and can cover with the emergency, and the 1 hour rule thingie. But how can I prove to you guys then that I contacted them? If someone ever makes a C&A report or something on it?

Urs

Koganosi


Quite right, we aren't going to be asking screen prints of a text message or an email ! Clearly there's an element of trust involved here. If it happens time and time again for a player then that trust would be questioned.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby GoranZ on Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:07 am

Nicky15 wrote:These these rules are to make a fair and level playing field for everyone.

Really? If I don't have sitters from my time zone who will be able to supervise me in case of emergency? New rules are against those that play fair.

Once again, what I wrote previously.
GoranZ wrote:More I think about the new rules more I'm against them... I fell that I'm being targeted with new rules because of someone else's misuse. And whats most important proposed rules don't even target the problem, they target players like me who have done nothing wrong, nor they think of doing of something wrong in the future.

Example: Majority of my clanmates are from US time zones so now I have huge problems when it comes of emergency supervision from 9 AM to 2 PM. And now I have to find new sitters who are compatible to my playing style, and are from my time zone, and preferably from my clan.

One very specific question: Is it CD team job to propose sitting rules? according to me NO.

But CD team could have proposed something like this:

1. The announcing in chat, of the name of the person who has covered a turn will now be mandatory.
2. Only 100 turns(number taken by example) can be supervised in a war for all war participants no matter the reasons(exception can be huge RL disasters like earthquake or hurricanes... those clan members supervisions wont count)
3. For every 3(number taken by example) new turns 1 point negative punishment.


Simple solutions that targets those alliances that have a habit of supervising members for strategic reasons and not those clans that play by the rules.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby betiko on Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:49 am

how about letting clan leaders negociate between each other on a case to case basis before each war? A clan leader knows more or less who will be on vacation at some point, who is having RL priorities at some point ect ect...

At the end of the day, it's clan A vs clan B. For some of these clans, these rules are too harch and for some others they are not harch enough. It would be like imposing the 12h fog rule, this depends on the involved clans's preferences.

One other thing (sorry I haven't read everything so don't know if this has been mentioned yet). But I know that often clan leaders get on clanmates accounts to "stalk" on fog games where their clan is involved to see how it's going. I think it's perfectly normal, wouldn't a general want to know the situation of his troops on each battlefield? If entering teammate's accounts to check out fog games seems perfectly normal to me, and if it becomes forbidden people can just send each other screenshots or share screen via skype or whatever. This is not account sharing. Otherwise, how about creating an option on CC to allow certain users not involved in a game to see what you see on a fog game?
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby SirSebstar on Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:53 am

bekito, i think this option will (or should) be available with a webbased sitter tool.

edit: i did not understand that someone ELSE would look at the account to offer advise. thats already and remains against siterules.
Last edited by SirSebstar on Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby laughingcavalier on Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:02 am

betiko wrote:
One other thing (sorry I haven't read everything so don't know if this has been mentioned yet). But I know that often clan leaders get on clanmates accounts to "stalk" on fog games where their clan is involved to see how it's going. I think it's perfectly normal, wouldn't a general want to know the situation of his troops on each battlefield? If entering teammate's accounts to check out fog games seems perfectly normal to me, and if it becomes forbidden people can just send each other screenshots or share screen via skype or whatever. This is not account sharing. Otherwise, how about creating an option on CC to allow certain users not involved in a game to see what you see on a fog game?


Nobody should be doing this. You should only go on another's account to cover a turn they might miss. It is NOT OK for a clan leader to be checking out games this way whether or not they offer advice. That is nothing to do with the new clan rules, that is the site rule.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby SirSebstar on Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:04 am

jetsetwilly wrote:
Koganosi wrote:2, Emergency cover may only be given if the person really is in danger of missing a turn. Therefore a turn can only be covered if there is an hour or less left on the clock. But steps must be taken to contact the player before hand.

I know some peeps in RL I sit in with my clan, they sometimes text me when they are gonna miss a turn? I took up contact with them then and can cover with the emergency, and the 1 hour rule thingie. But how can I prove to you guys then that I contacted them? If someone ever makes a C&A report or something on it?

Urs

Koganosi


Quite right, we aren't going to be asking screen prints of a text message or an email ! Clearly there's an element of trust involved here. If it happens time and time again for a player then that trust would be questioned.


i had not thought about this. before Ko, i did the same for the VDLL. the problem ko would face is that he could/would on a regular basis sit for random people on very short notice. so i think he has a good point. I think i will take it on faith though that the hunters will take more then face value and look for the real reasons. less of a high profile can make the difference, i hope, although that in itself could lead to "unfair" situations. maybe ko, its wiser to make a different arrangement, so the same sitting task is spread out among more players
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby josko.ri on Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:12 am

While I may not agree with some decision, hats off to CD team for putting their voluntary time into developing these rules. Also CD and friends idea seems very nice to continue developing clan scene. =D>
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby TheJonah on Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:24 am

josko.ri wrote:While I may not agree with some decision, hats off to CD team for putting their voluntary time into developing these rules. Also CD and friends idea seems very nice to continue developing clan scene. =D>


Well said josko.

The one hour rule is not set as yet and i think will most probably be increased. They do need to set a limit so they have something to work to which is understandable to punish what must be obvious offenders. There must have been many complaints for this to be set up.
As long as they have a reasonable arbitration panel then those of us who cover the way we do without impinging on the good nature of this game will have nothing to worry about.
I hope they will use this as a tool and not a rule.
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby BGtheBrain on Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:37 am

laughingcavalier wrote:
betiko wrote:
One other thing (sorry I haven't read everything so don't know if this has been mentioned yet). But I know that often clan leaders get on clanmates accounts to "stalk" on fog games where their clan is involved to see how it's going. I think it's perfectly normal, wouldn't a general want to know the situation of his troops on each battlefield? If entering teammate's accounts to check out fog games seems perfectly normal to me, and if it becomes forbidden people can just send each other screenshots or share screen via skype or whatever. This is not account sharing. Otherwise, how about creating an option on CC to allow certain users not involved in a game to see what you see on a fog game?


Nobody should be doing this. You should only go on another's account to cover a turn they might miss. It is NOT OK for a clan leader to be checking out games this way whether or not they offer advice. That is nothing to do with the new clan rules, that is the site rule.

agreed
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby TheJonah on Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:46 am

BGtheBrain wrote:
laughingcavalier wrote:
betiko wrote:
One other thing (sorry I haven't read everything so don't know if this has been mentioned yet). But I know that often clan leaders get on clanmates accounts to "stalk" on fog games where their clan is involved to see how it's going. I think it's perfectly normal, wouldn't a general want to know the situation of his troops on each battlefield? If entering teammate's accounts to check out fog games seems perfectly normal to me, and if it becomes forbidden people can just send each other screenshots or share screen via skype or whatever. This is not account sharing. Otherwise, how about creating an option on CC to allow certain users not involved in a game to see what you see on a fog game?


Nobody should be doing this. You should only go on another's account to cover a turn they might miss. It is NOT OK for a clan leader to be checking out games this way whether or not they offer advice. That is nothing to do with the new clan rules, that is the site rule.

agreed


Seconded
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Re: The Official Clan Sitting Rules

Postby codeblue1018 on Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:48 am

Just continue sitting as you normally would and quit worrying about these "new" rules. These are what my clan and probably most clans have been following for quite sometime. There would be no reason to take a turn beyond one hour anyway; the purpose of this is to take a turn for another member in the event of a miss. Instead of implementing all sorts of things that a lot of people will have a problem with; make it simple-increase the time per turn in clan games; instead of 24 hrs, make it 48 hrs. It will solve prolly 99% of sitting concerns.
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