CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby Bruceswar on Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:31 am

Vid_FISO wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:I sure as hell hope you realize that if you are a high rank it is really hard to have a positive score in 1 vs 1 games. Sometimes you have to win 6 of 7 games just to break even. Getting back on topic. Why is this even being discussed? Who has ever complained about the format of the cup? People know what it is when they sign up.


Yep, but as freakns took a post of mine personally and decided to reply personally to me in a condescending manner I believe I should have the right to chuck something as pointless back at him.

As this thread is to discuss the format of the cup so therefore it's not yet been decided as to what anyone would be signing up for, surely it is a simple exchange of ideas/ viewpoints up to the point at which decisions are made?



Why change what people like? Everybody wanted to see who was the best clan. This is what came out of that. The 1st cup was some serious fun and some upsets happened. Cup 2 just proved what one had told us. Now cup 3 is doing a good bit of the same. Top clans are top for a reason, though on any given day most any top clan can beat another top clan. What I am saying is this tournament might not be for all the clans, but every clan has the same chance to win as the next. You do not have to worry about anything anybody else does. Just take care of business in your wars and you will go far.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby ahunda on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:10 am

Short feedback from me on some issues:

41 games minimum should be maintained for all rounds to minimise the luck factor and keep the Cup as it was: The most prestigious clan event at the side, the toughest competition of skill.

No strong preference on Nukes & Trench from my side. A strong opinion on Round Limits though, and I´ll just quote myself from another older thread:

ahunda wrote:Some of the most epic & memorable team games are those, that go on for 20+ rounds without one side getting a decisive advantage, going back & forth, come-back after come-back. But all these games are finally decided & come to an end, because between 2 teams stale-mates are impossible. Round Limits would cap off these games and decide a winner based on a couple of armies difference at a random point in the game. Maybe it´s just me, but I find the idea horrible ...

So if time is a concern for those Trench games, and a majority wants to include those settings, I´d much prefer a rule of limiting the use of it to the 1st sets of challenges, instead of putting Round Limits on games.

Vid_FISO wrote:But for a "fairer" suggestion taken from tennis. seed the top 8 (working on 32 entries) in the same way for a fixed bracket so that they are the only ones with a fixed starting position in the bracket, other 24 positions are a random draw. Could possibly still give 1v32, 2v31 or 1v9, 2v10 & 29v30, 31,32 in the first round.

This sounds ok to me, though I don´t have a strong preference in regards to the seeding system overall.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby freakns on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:35 am

Vid_FISO wrote:
freakns wrote:
Vid_FISO wrote:Why not just flip a virtual coin then, it can be over in seconds that way.

It takes as long as it takes, if that's 2 years then it's 2 years. If everything is delayed for a couple of weeks by one game then it does, really, so what? A load of players with no other games to play in the meantime so they' are actually waiting for the next round before they can play a new game???? A lot of high ranks with no/ few trench games to their name screaming like babies, is it about the time it takes or the fact that they have to learn new tactics and others have a head start on them due to not being precious about how "good" they and others perceive them to be?

i just have to answer to this...
first of all, yes, i for one am waiting for new clan games, dont play other ones(atm i have one "meaningless game", one tournament game(the only tournament im in), and 4-5 clan games. when there is no clan events, my number of active games is between 1 and 3 games...). thats the first thing. second is about me being afraid(i dont think im high rank player, because if you know the difference between your troops and opponent troops, you should be able to maintain colonel rank... but im higher ranked then you, so for this occasion alone i will answer it and pretand that im high ranked). you are absolutely right, im not afraid, im terrified about possibility to play trench settings against you or any other high skill low score player. it scares the shit out of me. first of all because i would lose all my precious points(about which i dont care at all), then because it would take me months of training to reach mastering skill you already have, thus id put my clan in danger of losing to yours.
side kick note: this only tournament im in atm is nuclear, trench, manual, random tournament. now, you can see from my medal count im not that big on any of those(neither is any of my teammates), so presumably, i dont have any skills to compete on tournament like that. on that tournament we already beat TOFU, we are about to beat PACK, and the rest was no challenge at all!!! it was ridiculously easy! we are 5-0, (even though we played one extra round because team we beat dropped out, so we should be 6-0), and about to beat PACK which will put us on 6-0... if we somehow lose, that will put PACK, truly high ranked clan, on 6-0... you on other hand are 3-2 in that same tournament, despite immense amount of skill you posses.

seriously, take a cup of milk, and go back to bed... let the adults talk.


+3500 in team games, -1100 in 1v1, I can see why you want to concentrate on team games 8-)

i concentrate on team games because i happen to like them. and i do that for fun alone, i dont hunt for points(you may check, but i believe i havent set up more then 20 free to join team games) thus i play only clan related games(i think i even play more away games, so i dont play those on my favorite maps). i also like to play 6-8 men esc games(im pretty sure i have positive score in those too), but not playing many of those now because i hate when n00b screws up the game(even if he screw up in my favor, i still hate it). finally, what on earth 1 vs 1 have to do with CCup and trench settings?
i mean, this discussion has gone like this:
freak- i dont want to play trench
vid fiso the n00b- high ranked players dont want to play trench because we are superior to them in those games
freak- i already spanked your sorry ass on trench settings, even without any practice on it, i just happen not to like those settings
vid fiso the n00b- you suck at 1 vs 1
freak- :?
i really struggle to find the meaning in your posts...
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby Qwert on Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:58 am

trench its ok, but need to have some round limit and game limit per home games.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby Vid_FISO on Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:54 am

freakns wrote:i concentrate on team games because i happen to like them. and i do that for fun alone, i dont hunt for points(you may check, but i believe i havent set up more then 20 free to join team games) thus i play only clan related games(i think i even play more away games, so i dont play those on my favorite maps). i also like to play 6-8 men esc games(im pretty sure i have positive score in those too), but not playing many of those now because i hate when n00b screws up the game(even if he screw up in my favor, i still hate it). finally, what on earth 1 vs 1 have to do with CCup and trench settings?
i mean, this discussion has gone like this:
freak- i dont want to play trench
vid fiso the n00b- high ranked players dont want to play trench because we are superior to them in those games
freak- i already spanked your sorry ass on trench settings, even without any practice on it, i just happen not to like those settings
vid fiso the n00b- you suck at 1 vs 1
freak- :?
i really struggle to find the meaning in your posts...


You struggle to find meaning as you have no sense of reality, your little conversation there is neither what I said or meant, you have chosen to attribute both words and a viewpoint that I do not possess to me.

We've never played, unless you're a multi???
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby IcePack on Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:39 pm

Vid give it a rest, can we keep it on topic regarding CC4 instead of bickering back and forth?

We get it, you like trench. Duly noted. Move on...
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby chapcrap on Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:20 pm

I'm in favor of giving top clans a bye. It allows for the cup to be an annual event easier. So, the top 8 from previous cup get a mandatory bye. Possible byes for other clans as well... For the seeding, I say make the top 8 from the previous year, the top 8 for the next year. After that, follow the F400.

I prefer a full war for each round.

benga wrote:Game 12172270

this is just small example why trench needs round limit

Or don't allow escalating with trench. Only allow trench in Round 1. I am starting to feel that all game types should be allowed except freestyle. The reason to not allow freestyle is the time constraints it puts on players.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby Foxglove on Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:34 pm

Great-Ollie wrote: Medals for the top 3 finishers is kind of a cool idea. Have no medals until the podium i really like that. Do you think there is any way we could get a new type of medal created for this event just like the Conquer Cup? Have gold, silver, and bronze medals awarded to the winning clans every year. Could add to the excitement? Just an idea to get more excitement involved if the medals were not so easy to obtain. Dako the rest looks good and The Pack is looking forward to the event. :D


I don't think we'll ever have actual third place finishers - no one wants to jump into another 60 game challenge after losing in the semis. At least, it definitely didn't happen in CC1 or CC2, and I can't imagine it happening now in CC3 either.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby Bruceswar on Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:52 pm

Foxglove wrote:
Great-Ollie wrote: Medals for the top 3 finishers is kind of a cool idea. Have no medals until the podium i really like that. Do you think there is any way we could get a new type of medal created for this event just like the Conquer Cup? Have gold, silver, and bronze medals awarded to the winning clans every year. Could add to the excitement? Just an idea to get more excitement involved if the medals were not so easy to obtain. Dako the rest looks good and The Pack is looking forward to the event. :D


I don't think we'll ever have actual third place finishers - no one wants to jump into another 60 game challenge after losing in the semis. At least, it definitely didn't happen in CC1 or CC2, and I can't imagine it happening now in CC3 either.



So true. Why are we trying to change what people like??
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby Keefie on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:06 am

I hate the idea of seeding in this competition. It should have a random draw, just like the English FA Cup.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby IcePack on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:33 am

Keefie wrote:I hate the idea of seeding in this competition. It should have a random draw, just like the English FA Cup.


I hate this idea, and like the seeding.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby Keefie on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:46 am

To be the best you have to beat the best, it dosen't matter what round you do it in. The FA Cup is probably one of the most exciting cup competitions in the world, because there is no seeding.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby IcePack on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:58 am

Keefie wrote:To be the best you have to beat the best, it dosen't matter what round you do it in. The FA Cup is probably one of the most exciting cup competitions in the world, because there is no seeding.


....in your opinion
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby benga on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:18 am

FA also gives bye in early rounds to Premier League clubs.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby Keefie on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:29 am

Indeed it does, but they're in in round 3, which is the last 64. So it's quite possible for Man Utd to draw Chelsea at that stage.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby benga on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:51 am

Keefie wrote:Indeed it does, but they're in in round 3, which is the last 64. So it's quite possible for Man Utd to draw Chelsea at that stage.


yeap, but that would like 1/4 of CC
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby Keefie on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:55 am

benga wrote:
Keefie wrote:Indeed it does, but they're in in round 3, which is the last 64. So it's quite possible for Man Utd to draw Chelsea at that stage.


yeap, but that would like 1/4 of CC


I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. The last 64 contains the PL teams but also all of the Championship sides and the 24 survivors from round 2. Those survivors could and often do include some non-league sides.

Our last 8 would pretty much conly contain clans from the top 16 seeds.

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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby josko.ri on Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:43 am

Reading this discusion, I got an idea of format. I agree with stated argument that it is not fun having 1v32 2v31 etc in round 1, matches that finished like 36-5 or so. Nor top clan has fun in winning that way, nor low clan i suppose has any fun in being spanked so hard. Mainly, it happens that top organized clan plays vs some clan which is new on clan scene, without even having any sort of organization at that stage. This is format proposal which would eliminate this effect and have more exciting wars for lower clans (than being spanked by 20+ margin) and in the same time, top clans would get enough rest after CC2, and even CC4 would be possible to overlap with CC3 because of those byes. Also this format is flexible to be made for any number of participating teams (by reducing number of byes)

Example of 32 clans:
clans 1-8 get bye in Rounds 1,2 and got included in Round of 16 (Round 3)
clans 9-16 get bye in Round 1 and got included in Round 2

R1: clans 17-32. Draw: 17v32; 18v31 ... 24v25. Total 8 matches.
R2: clans 9-16 play vs 8 winners from R1. 9v(24v25); 10v(23v26) ... 16v(17v32). Total 8 matches.
R3 (Round of 16): 8 winners from R2 play vs clans 1-8. 1v[16v(17v32)]; 2v[15v(18v31)] ... 8v[9v(24v25)]

Example of 34 clans: (for every 2 more clans, number of byes in round 3 decreases by 1)
clans 1-7 get bye in Rounds 1,2 and got included in Round of 16 (Round 3)
clans 8-16 get bye in Round 1 and got included in Round 2

R1: clans 17-34. Draw: 17v34; 18v33 ... 25v26. Total 9 matches.
R2: clans 8-16 play vs 9 winners from R1. 8v(25v26); 9v(24v27) ... 16v(17v34). Total 9 matches.
R3 (Round of 16): 9 winners from R2 join vs clans 1-7. 1v[16v(17v34)]; 2v[15v(18v33)] ... [8v(25v26)]v[9v(24v27)]

Example of 40 clans:
clans 1-4 get bye in Rounds 1,2 and got included in Round of 16 (Round 3)
clans 5-16 get bye in Round 1 and got included in Round 2

R1: clans 17-40. Draw: 17v40; 18v39 ... 28v29. Total 12 matches.
R2: clans 5-16 play vs 12 winners from R1. 5v(28v29); 6v(27v30) ... 16v(17v40). Total 12 matches.
R3 (Round of 16): 12 winners from R2 play vs clans 1-4. 1v[16v(17v40)]; 2v[15v(18v39)] ... [8v(25v32)]v[9v(24v33)]

Example for odd number of clans... 33 clans.
Principle is the same like for 34 clans, just we give one bye in R1, to #17 ranked clan.
clans 1-7 get bye in Rounds 1,2 and got included in Round of 16 (Round 3)
clans 8-17 get bye in Round 1 and got included in Round 2

R1: clans 18-33. Draw: 18v33; 19v32 ... 25v26. Total 8 matches.
R2: clans 8-17 play vs 8 winners from R1. 8v(25v26); 9v(24v27) ... 16v17 (they can start match during R1). Total 9 matches.
R3 (Round of 16): 9 winners from R2 join vs clans 1-7. 1v(16v17); 2v[15v(18v33)] ... [8v(25v26)]v[9v(24v27)]

Advantages of this system (in random order):
1. Lower clans will get more or less equal field in earlier round. If they are able to progress to round 3 to match vs top clan, they will do it on escalating way. first fight someone ranked lower than 16 in R1, then get stronger opposition ranked 9-16 in R2, and then get some of plain top clans in R3. I suppose this way of escalating opposition quality would be much more interesting for lower clans than having strong opposition in R1 and being kicked hard with a big margin. As conclusion, every of the round will have very equal fields of play in almost every match, not like now where early rounds have blowouts. Nor winners nor losers enjoy in blowouts, everybody enjoy in tough matches.
2. Top clans will get enough rest between CC3 and CC4, as they will get byes in rounds 1&2. Lower clans already had enough rest as their last CCup activity was around last June, so I suppose they hard expect next edition, while clans still in CC3 would probably like to have some rest after the 60 games wars.
3. This would speed CCup in general. CC4 can then overlap with CC3 because nobody will be active in both editions at the same time.
4. As it was in CC3, top clans got by default opposition from bottom of rank, which often means some new clan, unexperienced, not yet organized. It is no wonder big margin blowouts was happening in that time. If we apply this format, and some lower ranked clans achieve to pass R1 and R2, it will be different story. Now we will have top clan vs lower clan who already has 2 wins in a row. With 2 wins in a row, their appetite will grow up, their organization will raise and they will put much better fight compared to fight that they would give in R1 of existing format. USe OSA as example. If they faced KORT in R1 of CC3, I suppose KORT would win much easier. But they faced us when they were already in great mood by having 2 upsets in a row, so they were for sure higher motivated and put better performance vs KORT.
5. Whoever comes to face top clan in R3, their "weight" will be 2 wins, whether lower clan who won R1 and R2, or clan from 8-16 who won in R2 vs some opponents who won in R1. In both cases "weight" of clan who will face 1-8 clan in R3 will be 2 wins so top clans will get better opponents, in comparing with CC3 draw where someone could be opposition of top clan in Round of 16 just because of luckily gotten rank (example is a new clan, just played 3 matches vs low ranked clans with average success, which put them at score around 1000 and in top 16)
6. This format can easily be applied to any number of participating clans, by just a little adjusting number of byes, as described in the format proposal.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby benga on Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:43 am

nice josko =D>
Last edited by benga on Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby Qwert on Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:06 am

interesting josko,, but can we arange some random placement in cup scheme? I mean why every time need to play 1 v32 -2 v 31?

i need these to be translate in english
Hteo sam pitati,zasto ne bi izvacili parove slicno kao u CL5?
Zasto svaki put mora 1 na 32 2 na 31?
Jednostavno na tvom primeru broj jedan (32)
-R1- prvi sesir timovi od 17 do 24 mesta--drugi sesir timovi od 25 do 32 mesta.Uparuje se tako sto se izvlace prvo jedan iz prvog sesira pa onda jedan iz drugog sesira,i tako dok se ne dobiju svi parovi. Interesantno i zanimljivo.
-R2-prvi sesir timovi od 9 do 16 mesta--drugi sesir pobednici iz R1, isti sistem izvlacenja kao u R1
-R3-prvi sesir timovi od 1 do 8 mesta---drugi sesir pobednici iz R2,isti sistem izvlacenja kao u R1
-R4- jedan sesir sa 8 pobednika iz R3 ,izvlace se cetvrtfinalni parovi
-R5- Polufinale , 4 pobednika is R4, izvlace se polufinalni parovi
-R6-Finale-dva pobednika iz R5
--------------------------------------
Mislim da ovo daje jos vecu sansu i slabijima da prodju sto dalje, a sa druge strane opet stiti ove jace iz prvih 8 da se sretnu tek u cetvrtfinalu, tako da i jedni i drugi imaju podjednake sanse za visok plasman, do sada u svim prethodnim, ipak su top klanovi imali vise privilegija, a sad ce svi imati podjednake sanse.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby josko.ri on Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:25 am

qwert wrote:interesting josko,, but can we arange some random placement in cup scheme? I mean why every time need to play 1 v32 -2 v 31?

To be as much as possible equal schedule for everyone, not easier and harder sides of draw. I see there are much diversity between seeded and random draws, we may put that to voting I think.

The format proposal can also be adjusted without hard fixed seeding. Maybe semi-random, top half of clans in every round to be seeded, and bottom half to be random paired with seeds.
Example (for 32 clans):
R1: seeds 17-24 clans. random paired 25-32 clans
R2: seeds 9-16 clans. random paired winners from R1
R of 16: seeds 1-8 clans. random paired winers from R2
QF: seeds 1-4 clans. random paired other 4
SF: seeds 1-2 clans. random paired other 2

To be more fair draw, pairings can be always done before any round starts with real time rank (updated results from previous round). Theoretically, with that system #24 clan can always be seeded clan. In R1 they achieve high margin win which boosts them to #14 rank, then in next round draw they enter in seeds place again because of the great result. If they repeat their high performance, they will boost their rank round-by-round and possible "earn" seeding place by that. Imagine for example if someone makes high upset like almost did OSA v KORT, the upset would raise lower clan to much higher rank and possible earning seeded place in next round.
In CC3, seeding were done April 1st, with KORT#1, PACK #4 and TOFU #5. just 2 days later CL4 phase 1 results were entered into ranking, which then changed to KORT #1 PACK #2 TOFU #3, which were all 3 on the same side of the draw. Real time draw with real time added seedings will add much more excitement and value real time performance, not some performance which was done in a single time increment.
Last edited by josko.ri on Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby Keefie on Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:32 am

If there's to be seeding of any kind then I really like josko's last suggestion.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby Qwert on Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:27 am

to be more correct
qwert wrote
Hteo sam pitati,zasto ne bi izvacili parove slicno kao u CL5?
Zasto svaki put mora 1 na 32 2 na 31?
Jednostavno na tvom primeru broj jedan (32)
-R1- prvi sesir timovi od 17 do 24 mesta--drugi sesir timovi od 25 do 32 mesta.Uparuje se tako sto se izvlace prvo jedan iz prvog sesira pa onda jedan iz drugog sesira,i tako dok se ne dobiju svi parovi. Interesantno i zanimljivo.
-R2-prvi sesir timovi od 9 do 16 mesta--drugi sesir pobednici iz R1, isti sistem izvlacenja kao u R1
-R3-prvi sesir timovi od 1 do 8 mesta---drugi sesir pobednici iz R2,isti sistem izvlacenja kao u R1
-R4- jedan sesir sa 8 pobednika iz R3 ,izvlace se cetvrtfinalni parovi
-R5- Polufinale , 4 pobednika is R4, izvlace se polufinalni parovi
-R6-Finale-dva pobednika iz R5
Mislim da ovo daje jos vecu sansu i slabijima da prodju sto dalje, a sa druge strane opet stiti ove jace iz prvih 8 da se sretnu tek u cetvrtfinalu, tako da i jedni i drugi imaju podjednake sanse za visok plasman, do sada u svim prethodnim, ipak su top klanovi imali vise privilegija, a sad ce svi imati podjednake sanse.


josko transation
The format proposal can also be adjusted without hard fixed seeding. Maybe semi-random, top half of clans in every round to be seeded, and bottom half to be random paired with seeds.
Example (for 32 clans):
R1: seeds 17-24 clans. random paired 25-32 clans
R2: seeds 9-16 clans. random paired winners from R1
R of 16: seeds 1-8 clans. random paired winers from R2
QF: seeds 1-4 clans. random paired other 4
SF: seeds 1-2 clans. random paired other 2
To be more fair draw, pairings can be always done before any round starts with real time rank (updated results from previous round)


thanks josko for translation :)
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby jetsetwilly on Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:47 am

I also like Josko's proposals. Definitely worthy of discussion.
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Re: CCup 4 format discussion

Postby Great-Ollie on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:04 am

jetsetwilly wrote:I also like Josko's proposals. Definitely worthy of discussion.

I think he has come up with a great solution, well done.
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