Coaches Poll (Jan 1, 2014 Updated!)

[Chariot of Fire]

As a voter here is what I had as of Feb 25th.

1. KORT
2. AOC
3. TOFU
4. AFOS
5. PACK
6. TSM
7. EMPIRE
8. IA
9. OSA
10. ID
11. OTP
12. PIG
13. TNC
14. MYTH
15. FALL
16. LOW
17. FOED
18. BFM
19. MD
20. 1ST REG

You might look at these and ask why TOFU is below AOC, but looking at the results... AOC has been to 2 Clan League finals in a row. TOFU has been to none. While TOFU has a lead on KORT right now the war is not over yet. TOFU has yet to make the finals of any major event. TOFU also got trashed by Empire in CC 2. I know this is about now, but AOC is slightly ahead right now in my opinion.

This is why I always had a problem with Blitz and his poll coz he habitually ranked the then undefeated TOFU lower than they deserved (obviously felt threatened). Same has happened here, evident by the fact Bruce even feels the need to explain himself! TOFU has lost just one challenge in its history (at a time it was without leadership), it has beaten KORT every time in their two challenges, it has the leading overall Won/Lost stats of any clan and is now about to contest the CC3 Final. We've also met AOC twice, beating them in the CLA2 Final and 26-15 in a challenge. Some people obviously let their hearts (or self-interest) rule their heads or simply don't do their homework very well.

And BG - it would have been courteous to send a PM to those you asked for rankings to direct them to this thread (which I've only just seen). When I PM'd you a week after submitting Tofu's list you told me insufficient replies had been received and that this wasn't going to be done.

[Bruceswar]

Please note the date on my list posted. My list would be different now than it was then. I stand by my list then and still stand by it.(About the time it was written) My placing of TOFU was not from my heart, but with a common sense approach. That could be said for anybody I ranked on this list or did not rank. I took what was in my PM to BG and copied it out and posted here.

[Chariot of Fire]

How would it be different? Would we be even lower? lol. On the basis we had a 13-7 lead over you at the time and were forecast to lead 24-12 with the games in progress I'd have thought a 31-29 result was a positive slump for us in March. So I can't imagine how your perception would change between then and now - at least not one to put us in a more favourable light. If in your opinion we are ranked lower than AOC yet we beat you, where does that put you?

Or maybe posting your opinion was simply a tactless thing to do unless you wished to draw criticism?

A coaches' poll is supposed to reflect ability above anything else - past results are secondary in the calculation - much like seedings as opposed to world rankings. The F400 takes care of performance-based rankings whereas the coaches' poll is meant to determine perceived strength (if Clan X met Clan Y tomorrow who would win?). That's why there should be discrepancies between the two, much like AOC/Empire's new clan being relegated on the F400 yet which should be higher (logically) on the coaches' poll.

Rant over

p.s. we ranked you higher

[Bruceswar]

Well if it stood right now. It would be

1. KORT
2. TOFU
3. AFOS
4. PACK
... Etc etc etc

I would still say the whole body of work that KORT has done puts them slightly over TOFU right now. I am not saying you will not overtake KORT, but as of right now that is how I would have it. It is just like when we first beat THOTA. Nobody had us at the number 1 spot right away. We had to keep winning to get that spot.

[Chariot of Fire]

So AOC don't even figure in your Top 4 anymore despite bringing onboard a lot of Empire talent? As I mentioned in my previous post, I think you put too much stock in historical results and not on potential which creates a distorted view. And despite our unblemished record vs Kort & AoC we still don't fare better, so even on historical data it seems warped.

We've gone 7-17 vs you guys in March and lost to a couple of clans in the Random League in the same period yet we've moved up a place on your current table. Cheers!

[Bruceswar]

The new AOC/ Empire clan is going to be good, but this poll cannot include someone who has not played a single game as a clan or team. I can count countless times in history where teams were supposed to he great only to flop. I do not think AOC / Empire will be one of those, but there is no way to know exactly where they will fall.

[Chariot of Fire]

But they have played games as a clan - just under another name. You can't be saying the new AOC/Empire clan won't be included on the Coaches Poll too (as well as losing their standing on the F400)? Or are you?

[Arama86n]

As a voter here is what I had as of Feb 25th.

1. KORT
2. AOC
3. TOFU
4. AFOS
5. PACK
6. TSM
7. EMPIRE
8. IA
9. OSA
10. ID
11. OTP
12. PIG
13. TNC
14. MYTH
15. FALL
16. LOW
17. FOED
18. BFM
19. MD
20. 1ST REG

You might look at these and ask why TOFU is below AOC, but looking at the results... AOC has been to 2 Clan League finals in a row. TOFU has been to none. While TOFU has a lead on KORT right now the war is not over yet. TOFU has yet to make the finals of any major event. TOFU also got trashed by Empire in CC 2. I know this is about now, but AOC is slightly ahead right now in my opinion.

I must say it is hugely amusing that you feel the need to defend the ranking. 'nuff said!

On a lighter note, OSA should probably be #1

#1 OSA
#2 BoFM*

And by BoFM i mean that when the possibility to play team games by yourself, ie play several positions in your own team becomes available, Bogan shall return to us, reunite with Gallant, and they WILL annihilate us all. Nuff said. (OSA will still be #1 though despite being annihilated.) No need to more members, Just hand Bogan a pitcher of sangria, put him on skype with Gallant, and pit them alone against your clan in a 60 game challenge, and prepare to be penetrated. (I reserve the right to put anon' back in this imaginary super-BoFM for amusement purposes, as well as conquest map pwnage ofc.)

I have spoken.

[Leehar]

But they have played games as a clan - just under another name. You can't be saying the new AOC/Empire clan won't be included on the Coaches Poll too (as well as losing their standing on the F400)? Or are you?

Much as sometimes you have a lot of good things to say Chariot, you can't really attack Bruce for sprouting his Opinion. He's in Kort, you're in Tofu, chances are you won't agree anyway.

If he thinks that way, it's his prerogative with the way this poll works, just as I voted Empire as 1st because of an element of Bias on my part, but also because I didn't think there was an obvious replacement clan I'd call better than us.

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I also put reasoning for where else I placed other clans, but I hope I don't have to defend my opinion as well?

[Chariot of Fire]

But they have played games as a clan - just under another name. You can't be saying the new AOC/Empire clan won't be included on the Coaches Poll too (as well as losing their standing on the F400)? Or are you?

Much as sometimes you have a lot of good things to say Chariot, you can't really attack Bruce for sprouting his Opinion. He's in Kort, you're in Tofu, chances are you won't agree anyway.

If he thinks that way, it's his prerogative with the way this poll works, just as I voted Empire as 1st because of an element of Bias on my part, but also because I didn't think there was an obvious replacement clan I'd call better than us.

show

I also put reasoning for where else I placed other clans, but I hope I don't have to defend my opinion as well?

Do you make your opinion public and therefore subject to the scrutiny of others? No, thought not.

And I'm not too sure why you've quoted that paragraph of mine. I was querying whether your (new) clan will be included in the Coaches' Poll, as according to Bruce it will not. So it's not a matter of opinion, as you say, but more a case of fact.

p.s. If you show bias in your judgment, as you've admitted, then you really shouldn't be invited to do this exercise again.

[angola]

In America, a 'coaches poll' would definitely show bias.

Over here, in these types of polls, people tend to vote the following ways:

1. How good they think someone is - based on results or not, very subjective

2. How good someone has been in the past - results based

3. How good someone will be in the future - again subjective

The draw to these types of polls in America, generally, is to see what your peers or people plugged into your sport, think of you.

So, there is definitely bias ... heck, there is generally a huge bias just based on geography (not something we have to worry about on CC).

So, while Bruce might say the AOC/Empire group won't show up in his poll, that doesn't mean we aren't allowed to. I think he is just saying what he will vote for in his own ballot.

At least that's how I'm reading it.

[Leehar]

Do you make your opinion public and therefore subject to the scrutiny of others? No, thought not.

And I'm not too sure why you've quoted that paragraph of mine. I was querying whether your (new) clan will be included in the Coaches' Poll, as according to Bruce it will not. So it's not a matter of opinion, as you say, but more a case of fact.

p.s. If you show bias in your judgment, as you've admitted, then you really shouldn't be invited to do this exercise again.

So did many others (share how they voted), but it's not very helpful if people are maligned for sharing their opinion.

Again, if Bruce doesn't believe that AoC/Emp deserve to be in his Top 4, thats his prerogative, I can't call it wrong that he doesn't believe there are synergistic benefits from a merger. It's at least shared by Nimic so it's not an isolated opinion, and therefore no less valid than anyone elses.

I said I showed an element of bias, which is actually accounted for in BG's poll by removing the top & bottom 2 results.
However, as you put it so aptly since this is a matter of perspective, I see no reason to doubt that if Clan X met any Clan Y tomorrow, Empire(X) would win, and put the reasons for why I felt it was valid given past evidence and current potential. Whether that will actually happen is up to a myriad factors including Lady Luck.

Same reason why I assume you put Tofu first, yet overall more people put Kort there, there was no doubt some bias in your (or your clans) judgement, yet the Poll took everything into account to form an overall perspective.

[Chariot of Fire]

Again, if Bruce doesn't believe that AoC/Emp deserve to be in his Top 4, thats his prerogative

I think you are missing the point. It's not a matter of where Bruce thinks you belong or whether you'll be in his Top 4 or not. It's a matter of you not being in the poll at all. Read his words.....

The new AOC/ Empire clan is going to be good, but this poll cannot include someone who has not played a single game as a clan or team.

That implies you won't be ranked anywhere. Get it?

[freakns]

cut the crap COF.
bruce put you on list where he thinks you should be. it is highly subjective, but so is my list, and so is your list. also, its his and KORT opinion. and you know opinion is like a butt, everyone has one.
you said TOFU has lost only one clan war in history? PACK too only lost one clan war in history, and they lost that one to you, just barely, when they too were without leadership and lacking 3-4 extremely important players. based on that, and the fact their leaders seems to be back, have you ranked them above TOFU? im guessing they are not higher then 3, and there is a big question have you gave them even 3rd place... are you feel threaten by them?

[chapcrap]

The new AOC/ Empire clan is going to be good, but this poll cannot include someone who has not played a single game as a clan or team. I can count countless times in history where teams were supposed to he great only to flop. I do not think AOC / Empire will be one of those, but there is no way to know exactly where they will fall.

I definitely disagree with this. I think they will definitely be included in the new poll by pretty much everyone if they have been paying attention to what's going on.

I don't have a problem with the way Bruce ranked the clans a month ago. I don't really see how he can keep a clan at number 2 that just beat the clan he has at number 1 though now. In my ranks, I too had KORT above TOFU in the past. But now, I don't see how you can't put TOFU ahead.

[Chariot of Fire]

To be honest I don't really give a hoot how someone ranked the clans. The only thing that puzzled me was to go public with one's choices and then add a disclaimer, as if it was necessary to justify one's decision. That would be akin to me posting on here "I ranked Otpisani #20 because their leader rubs peanut butter on to his genitals and pokes them through the fence for the neighbour's dog", but I decided it was better for this to remain confidential.

Then the second thing that puzzled me - which prolonged the whole debate - was a statement to the effect AOC/Emp can not be included in this poll. I have since heard from BG this will not be the case.

So all is well in the world. I am happy, AOC/Emp should be happy, and Mrs Jovanović's dog is ecstatic.

[freakns]

so dog situation worked and boost us up in the rankings?

[Chariot of Fire]

Yes, I ranked you much higher than 20

I'm a dog lover (though not in the same way you love them)

[chapcrap]

To be honest I don't really give a hoot how someone ranked the clans. The only thing that puzzled me was to go public with one's choices and then add a disclaimer, as if it was necessary to justify one's decision. That would be akin to me posting on here "I ranked Otpisani #20 because their leader rubs peanut butter on to his genitals and pokes them through the fence for the neighbour's dog", but I decided it was better for this to remain confidential.

Which leader are we talking about?!

Then the second thing that puzzled me - which prolonged the whole debate - was a statement to the effect AOC/Emp can not be included in this poll. I have since heard from BG this will not be the case.

So all is well in the world. I am happy, AOC/Emp should be happy, and Mrs Jovanović's dog is ecstatic.

Yeah, I feel like people can rank whatever clans they want.

[freakns]

Yes, I ranked you much higher than 20

I'm a dog lover (though not in the same way you love them)

yeah, i love to feed them. god knows what you love to do with them...

[Genoke]

Then the second thing that puzzled me - which prolonged the whole debate - was a statement to the effect AOC/Emp can not be included in this poll. I have since heard from BG this will not be the case.

So all is well in the world. I am happy, AOC/Emp should be happy, and Mrs Jovanović's dog is ecstatic.

Yeah, I feel like people can rank whatever clans they want.

+1

[cooldeals]

Just so everyone remembers, the two highest and lowest votes for each clan are thrown out. So hopefully that helps if you worry someone will rank themselves too high and lowball a challenger.

[niMic]

Well, they could always just rank their challenger third lowest, then.

[patrickaa317]

Just so everyone remembers, the two highest and lowest votes for each clan are thrown out. So hopefully that helps if you worry someone will rank themselves too high and lowball a challenger.

Well, they could always just rank their challenger third lowest, then.

It's the votes a clan receives, not the votes a clan gives....

If Clan x receives votes (1st, 2nd, 8th, 8th, 9th, 12th, 13th). The 1st, 2nd, 12th, 13th votes are thrown out, thus leaving them with 8th, 8th, 9th votes.

[niMic]

Oh.

That makes a lot more sense.