THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

[chapcrap]

What is fair an equitable is no byes, just put people in a bracket and move forward, that's fair to everyone. You can't baby people because they play like crap and you can't reward people by moving them forward in the tournament just because they are better. It's not fair all the way around. If people want to be babied, then send them to NC4, mcshanester29 has open arms. If people want byes because they have big heads about themselves and think they shouldn't have to face low ranked clans, then they need kicked in the nuts.

One round of random seeding is fair. Randomizing it every round it pointless. It's already been randomized once.

[jghost7]

...

I will summarize my opinions, for people who won't read all of josko's comments.

I think many clans are failing to comprehend the difference between a system that treats every clan exactly the same (completely random) and a system that will produce a great competition with competitive match-ups.

Option 1 (the system for the previous three cups) Single Elimination seeded bracket. All teams go from start.

Option 2, the completely random draw. Not even a change that is consistent with this tournament.

Option 3 a seeded system that has 2 rounds of play-in games.

lol sorry, I liked this comment...lol---->(GOLDEN TICKET!!!!@!, f*ck YEAH!@#$@).

Sry, but you seem a bit harsh on your points.Thats not what i understood from josko suggestion. Your argumentation is only about top clans avoiding eachother. So i believe your interpretation of josko arguments is wrong.
It looks like the one wanting a free ticket to an advanced stage is you, not the lower clans.
Even if i would agree in a pure random draw since round 1 , the chance of 2 great clans achieving the final is great.
The way it looks you see it , is that u want a fixed draw.Well...why dont we just proceed to the semi final with the top 4 clans and ignore the rest?
A draw is part of a cups fun...it should not be entirely fixed until the final. But i believe top clans are in the top by merit, so they should forfeit in the earlier rounds.
The other must earn in game the right to play with them.

Dude, that is not what she said. LOL.

[Leehar]

People who are against this option probably fall into 2 camps:
1. They don't think anyone deserves a bye. Fair enough - then we should go with option 1.
2. They want the option that will allow their clan the highest chance to succeed, regardless of ranking. This means they probably favor possibly easier progress for lower ranked clans

If it wasn't for your acceptable bias towards josko's option , and some slight digs at people (and therefore alienating those that voted differently), I would totally use your arguments to campaign for votes on Option 3

Anyway, I also assumed similarly to you that people were just falling into the 2nd camp of your example, but that isn't the case for some, who just didn't feel that top clans should face less wars to reach the final, and neither did they want indefinite 1v32 match-ups (always losses) for the first round, so random perhaps seemed the best alternative.
I have been able to narrow down their views a bit, and perhaps a semi-random where only top 8/16 is an adequate compromise for them, which allows them a fairer chance & doesn't involve facing possibly rested opposition in latter rounds?

Now if josko or Fox can phrase a cogent argument to those that have voted for All-Random, on why that may not be the most enviable format (Josko already did a nice one, but was hoping he could address the other worries people had) I'm sure we can table it to the Reps and they can consider the facts on their merits.

However, I really don't believe insults or threats would necessarily obviate their choices.

I'm confident there are enough level-headed people who are always willing to listen if they are given the appropriate information in a polite fashion. The middle-ground does exist, and I'm sure it can be reached

[IcePack]

[quote=Leehar]
'm confident there are enough level-headed people who are always willing to listen if they are given the appropriate information in a polite fashion. The middle-ground does exist, and I'm sure it can be reached[/quote]

After months and months and pages and pages of debate. Maybe. Maybe not? So we can expect this to start....in the fall? CD's still haven't given a timetable to start or when all the debate and voting will end.

[Leehar]

The middle-ground does exist, and I'm sure it can be reached

After months and months and pages and pages of debate. Maybe. Maybe not? So we can expect this to start....in the fall? CD's still haven't given a timetable to start or when all the debate and voting will end.

"American Seasoning does not compute"

It's nonsensical to give a schedule since things have rarely(if ever) gone to plan. However, Voting is already scheduled to end in 3 days, I imagine we can estimate optimistic Start to be Mid-April

[Vid_FISO]

A few thoughts.

I wonder how many of these arguments are down to cultural and ideology divides? Maybe not a completely straight line but to a degree it appears (to me) to be US vs RotW to a degree.

What is the purpose of any cup competition? Simple answer - to produce a winner = the best.

To some it really may as well be just start at the last 2/4/8 and forget the rest, that's all they're interested in, what happens to the rest is immaterial, simply cannon fodder there to make up the numbers, it doesn't matter if they lose 41-0 in the first round, only those at the top really matter. Reaching a "spectacle final" that most have no interest in whatsoever is the goal, just there are no fans or spectators, no media, it's just another thread that occasionally bumps to the top of the active forum that most will never be aware of, let alone open. I fail to see the incentive for any of the lower clans to participate and legitimize the "competition" by doing so.

Others clearly, whilst accepting that the best clan will still win the cup regardless of how they get to the final, want more competition along the way for all, giving the lower ranks a reason for entering. Followers of European football will be quite accustomed to various national cup competitions where the minnows play a round or two amongst themselves and with the bigger clubs entering later into the competition and I'd guess would quite happily accept a format where the top 8/10 entered a couple of rounds in if it made the early rounds of the competition more competitive for THOSE INVOLVED.

Again, regarding random draws, the followers of teams/ clubs in an open sport cup competition will have the very basic viewpoint, to win the cup you have to beat the 2nd best team (or the team that beat them) somewhere along the way, whether it be round 1,2,3, the semi or in the final itself.

CC is not a spectator sport and neither does it have fans, there is absolutely no need to manipulate/ seed to a "spectacle" final, beyond those involved and a mere handful of others, no-one cares!

I've also thought whilst writing this, an interesting little comp would be a cup comp where the home drawn team is the only one with map & setting choice (maybe 9/11/13/15 games).

[IcePack]

There are plenty of people who follow the challenges and competition, maybe you dont care - but this does not mean others do not.

[Foxglove]

People who are against this option probably fall into 2 camps:
1. They don't think anyone deserves a bye. Fair enough - then we should go with option 1.
2. They want the option that will allow their clan the highest chance to succeed, regardless of ranking. This means they probably favor possibly easier progress for lower ranked clans

If it wasn't for your acceptable bias towards josko's option , and some slight digs at people (and therefore alienating those that voted differently), I would totally use your arguments to campaign for votes on Option 3

Okok, criticism of the insults in my previous post is noted. I will try again later with some more reasonable arguments!

It's nonsensical to give a schedule since things have rarely(if ever) gone to plan. However, Voting is already scheduled to end in 3 days, I imagine we can estimate optimistic Start to be Mid-April

Errr - that date range sounds pretty impossible to me. The semi-final matches for CC3 are just concluding. The final match hasn't even begun yet.

If we'd like to get started earlier though, I believe that Option 3 will help facilitate such a schedule.

I think this brings to mind a point that josko made which might have been forgotten - Option 3 allows for cups to overlap, because the first rounds of the next cup can run concurrently with the final round(s) of the current cup. Half of the clans who participate get eliminated in round 1 (assuming 32 clans), so at least 16 clans probably go for a year in between their active cup participation. That's a long wait! Option 3 allows for them to participate more quickly, and allows them to face a more equally ranked clan, which also allows them a higher probability to play in subsequent rounds.

[IcePack]

I think this brings to mind a point that josko made which might have been forgotten - Option 3 allows for cups to overlap, because the first rounds of the next cup can run concurrently with the final round(s) of the current cup. Half of the clans who participate get eliminated in round 1 (assuming 32 clans), so at least 16 clans probably go for a year in between their active cup participation. That's a long wait! Option 3 allows for them to participate more quickly, and allows them to face a more equally ranked clan, which also allows them a higher probability to play in subsequent rounds.

Not only that, but the debate is still going on. The vote is "scheduled" to end in 3 days, but one of the CD's has already stated it could be extended. Since there is no single point of contact for the event, hard to know whether Leehar is right or the other one(s) are until someone posts an OFFICIAL schedule.

But, that timeline does not appear to work for several of the options being voted on. Something the CD's need to consider as well as the duration of each seeding option being voted on. IMO there should be some sort of rough draft schedule for each of the options so people know what kind of timeframe / timeline people are looking at. But votings already halfway through...so, not likely to happen at this point. Vote blindly and find out the consequences later i suppose.

[Foxglove]

Not only that, but the debate is still going on. The vote is "scheduled" to end in 3 days, but one of the CD's has already stated it could be extended. Since there is no single point of contact for the event, hard to know whether Leehar is right or the other one(s) are until someone posts an OFFICIAL schedule.

But, that timeline does not appear to work for several of the options being voted on. Something the CD's need to consider as well as the duration of each seeding option being voted on. IMO there should be some sort of rough draft schedule for each of the options so people know what kind of timeframe / timeline people are looking at. But votings already halfway through...so, not likely to happen at this point. Vote blindly and find out the consequences later i suppose.

Well, the CDs have assured us that under their leadership and ownership the cup will run to schedule, so I'm sure that they're considering the time requirements for each of these options and conveying them properly to the people who are voting.

[IcePack]

Not only that, but the debate is still going on. The vote is "scheduled" to end in 3 days, but one of the CD's has already stated it could be extended. Since there is no single point of contact for the event, hard to know whether Leehar is right or the other one(s) are until someone posts an OFFICIAL schedule.

But, that timeline does not appear to work for several of the options being voted on. Something the CD's need to consider as well as the duration of each seeding option being voted on. IMO there should be some sort of rough draft schedule for each of the options so people know what kind of timeframe / timeline people are looking at. But votings already halfway through...so, not likely to happen at this point. Vote blindly and find out the consequences later i suppose.

Well, the CDs have assured us that under their leadership and ownership the cup will run to schedule, so I'm sure that they're considering the time requirements for each of these options and conveying them properly to the people who are voting.

As a voter in the CDF, there hasn't been any discussion of schedule beyond a few people (non cd's) who are bringing it up.

[Foxglove]

Not only that, but the debate is still going on. The vote is "scheduled" to end in 3 days, but one of the CD's has already stated it could be extended. Since there is no single point of contact for the event, hard to know whether Leehar is right or the other one(s) are until someone posts an OFFICIAL schedule.

But, that timeline does not appear to work for several of the options being voted on. Something the CD's need to consider as well as the duration of each seeding option being voted on. IMO there should be some sort of rough draft schedule for each of the options so people know what kind of timeframe / timeline people are looking at. But votings already halfway through...so, not likely to happen at this point. Vote blindly and find out the consequences later i suppose.

Well, the CDs have assured us that under their leadership and ownership the cup will run to schedule, so I'm sure that they're considering the time requirements for each of these options and conveying them properly to the people who are voting.

As a voter in the CDF, there hasn't been any discussion of schedule beyond a few people (non cd's) who are bringing it up.

Oh. It should probably be considered.

[ahunda]

I would agree with Vid_FISO, that there seems to be a divide here, but to me it largely seems a divide between high ranked clans & low ranked clans. And I have to admit, I am a bit disappointed, that quite a few people seem to put their own selfish interests first, instead of taking a step back & trying to find a compromise, that makes the CCup the most interesting & fun event for everybody.

Now there are many people involved here, who were not part of the clan world at the beginnings of the CCup. So let me tell you, that back in those days one of the main attractions of the CCup (and the CLA League) was the fact, that those tournaments gave new & lower ranked clans a shot to play & test their skills against the real top dogs, who usually would not accept regular challenges from those lower ranked clans on the *free market*.

Obviously the experiences of the last years have changed attitudes & expectations a bit. Lower ranked clans have taken regular & tough beatings at the hands of the top clans, and so they are not so eager anymore to call them out. Considering this, I find it very reasonable to make some changes to the original format, so that lower ranked clans are not simply cannon fodder for the top clans in the first round, where they get beaten thoroughly, and then that´s their entire CCup experience. It is easily understood, that in order to make this tournament more attractive & more fun for new and lower ranked clans, we should look for new approaches & compromises.

Yet on the other hand we should not forget & simply brush aside the original idea of the CCup, which was to make this the greatest competition of skill in the clan world, the one tournament, where the top dogs would face each other & really have to prove their worth in 40-60 game challenges. Winning the CCup has in the last years become pretty much synonymous with earning the number 1 spot in the clan world. Now obviously, and also easily understood, it is the interest of the higher ranked clans to preserve that status of the CCup. And that´s why they react negatively to an all-random draw, that could pitch the top clans against each other in the first 2 rounds.

Let´s face it: New & lower ranked clans stand little to no chance to win the CCup, when all the top clans are in the field too. But making a problem of this and/or calling for an *even battle-field* is not, what this should be about. If we wanted equal chances for all, we would throw a coin to decide the winner: 50/50, it doesn´t get *fairer* than that. The point of the tournament however was to determine the true & real number 1, based on a competition of skill at the game.

As chapcrap pointed out already, there are other clan tournaments (the Newcomers Cup & the Allcomers Cup), where very few top clans participate, and where new & lower ranked clans have a realistic shot to win a title. The CCup should be preserved as the one clan tournament, where the top clans participate & fight over the title and the bragging rights coming with it. That does not mean however, that there can´t be any fun in this for lower ranked clans too.

I actually think, that joskos ideas are a serious attempt to accommodate the interests & wishes of those lower ranked clans. His suggestion would avoid any one-sided challenges in the early rounds, where the top dogs beat up the lower ranked clans, but instead let the lower ranked clans have some serious challenges among themselves, against clans of similar rank, giving them a chance get some wins in the course of the tournament, earn themselves a reputation (and medals, yawn), gain experience and then get a shot at a top clan in the later rounds, that they will likely not get outside of this tournament.

This sounds to me like a fair enough incentive for lower ranked clans to participate in the CCup, have fun playing it, taking something out of it. Whilst at the same time preserving the main character of the tournament, that has been the incentive for the top clans in the first 3 editions.

Maybe a compromise could be reached, if the bye system was not quite so extreme ? Not giving 8 clans bye´s for 2 entire rounds, but maybe only 4 (the semi-finalists of the last Cup) or even only 2 (the finalists) ? Give the others (3-8 or 5-8) only 1 round ?

The lower ranked clans, who are opposing the bye idea as *unfair* and/or *advantageous for the top clans* should consider here, that this system would in fact give them a much more even playing field in the early rounds, guaranteeing them opposition of similar rank & skill, whereas a total random draw could still put them up against one of the top clans in Round 1.

Another compromise could be to have random draws for each round, but giving bye´s to the top clans in the first rounds. So we´d then for example have a Round of 16 with the top 8 clans & those 8 clans, who won 2 challenges in a row to win/earn their place in that field of 16 then.

[Keefie]

Ahunda makes some good points, but one theme runs throughout his post: this is a cup for the top clans.

So why not restrict entry to CC4 to just the top 16 clans, after all they're the only ones who really count.

[niMic]

That's certainly not what I got out of his post, Keefie. Most of it seemed to be concerned with ways of giving "the rest" more involvement. Right now the lower ranked clans are usually gone after a round or two. Some may think random draw solves that, but in the process it also completely takes away the integrity of the Cup.

Making the quarters/semis could go from a magnificent achievement to "a lucky bracket".

[Leehar]

Ahunda makes some good points, but one theme runs throughout his post: this is a cup for the top clans.

So why not restrict entry to CC4 to just the top 16 clans, after all they're the only ones who really count.

This is a cup to prove the best clan on the site. So it takes into account all clans. It's actually better than the likes of the NewComers Cup which only includes the bottom clans, or the All-Comers Cup which perhaps is more randomised to your preference.
However, I really can't see if you can prove who's the best through a random format, if it can always comes down to the luck of the draw rather than the skill of the competitors.

And it doesn't have to be the Top 16, because upsets have happened over the years. OSA proved they belonged in the the Top 8 by taking on and beating other higher-ranked clans, I doubt they'd have been able to do that with a random format?
And I still don't see where you see easy draws for the Top clans. #1 kort had to fight through dynasty/osa; tofu through otp/pack, afos through ia/tsm, aoc through emp/botfm.
All have been tough encounters and fights along the way. While tnc/hh/myth/id etc have also all been involved in the battles to advance.

But if it comes down to chance... Some achievements will just mean much less?

Perhaps the 1st round is sometimes slightly lopsided, but can the solution to that really be to involve random and make the rest of the tournament lose more significance?
Would semi-random not be a much more suitable compromise? At least allow some form of seeding, while still randomise the bouts so uneven matches aren't orchestrated...


Again, the trouble comes in with trying not to think of Random as a means to just want to kick the top clans out amongst each other (Who admittedly have a better chance to reach the latter stages of the competition, but through skill, not easier draws?)
If thats not the case than we do need to start getting on the same page?


I know my clan is not worried about facing other top clans in the early stages, but just that if we don't, even if we reach the top 4/8 etc, we won't really deserve it as much as someone who faced tougher opposition along the way?

[ahunda]

Ahunda makes some good points, but one theme runs throughout his post: this is a cup for the top clans.

So why not restrict entry to CC4 to just the top 16 clans, after all they're the only ones who really count.

This strikes me as a rather unfair response to a post, that put a lot of emphasis on the question how to make this tournament more interesting & fun for lower ranked clans.

In general I have the feeling, that the top clans have shown a lot of understanding for the interests of the lower ranked clans and a will to compromise & make changes to the format of the CCup. I think, it might be time, the lower ranked clans showed a little understanding for the interests of the top clans too. If they are not willing to compromise, I am afraid, it will destroy the very nature & integrity of this tournament.

I am already hearing rumours of several top clans considering to not sign up for CCup 4, if it is played with a complete random draw. This could set in motion a development, where the CCup simply turns into a 2nd edition of the Allcomers Cup, where the top clans don´t participate. And the top clans doing the very thing, that Keefie suggested: Organising their own private tournament, that suits their own interests, with no consideration for the lower ranked clans at all. Is that, where we want this to go ?

To me the only argument for the all-random draw seems to be, that it would give lower ranked clans a chance to progress further in the tournament, simply by fortune of a lucky draw, facing only other lower ranked clans til let´s say the semi finals. And I am asking myself, what is the merit of that ?

With the Newcomers Cup & the Allcomers Cup we already have 2 regular clan tournaments, where lower ranked clans make it all the way to the semi finals and even the title. What sets the CCup apart and makes it special is the participation of the top clans, and that you have to beat at least 2-3 of the top 10 ranked clans to win the title. Circumventing this by a lucky draw takes away from the very accomplishment of winning this tournament.

Let´s take a look at the example of OSA: By only making it to the quarter finals in CCup 3, beating 2 higher seeded clans and then giving KORT a really tough challenge, they have earned a lot of respect, fair & square, all based on their performance. Am I the only one, who has noticed, how often they have been mentioned in recent debates ? This is, how you earn respect & a reputation in the clan world.

And I am suggesting, they would not have earned this amount of respect, had they reached even the semi finals merely by luck of the draw, facing only lower ranked clans on the way. In that case they´d been noticed & would now be remembered as the underdog, who had the luck of the draw.

This is, what I mean with the integrity & nature of this tournament. You can prove your worth, gain respect & reputation in this tournament like in no other, but you do it by playing tough competition and holding your own, not by slipping through round after round by pure luck.

[Arama86n]

I just wanted to make a small post and applaud ahunda's posts in this thread. A beacon of light in a sea of... well I won't finish that sentence.

[josko.ri]

The feeling was that this [Option 3] was even more elitist and inequitable than option 1. It's not about having a better chance to win in round 1, it's about all clans being treated equally in how the competition is set up.

Whats your response Josko?

I'm just trying to grasp the differing opinions here, and why in essence being Seeded seems grossly unfavourable to some clans.


Edit: Perhaps the Bye's are an issue? Why should a low-ranked clan have to fight similar quality opponents for 2 tough rounds before coming up against rested and refreshed Top 8 clan

Ok, my answer about byes. Top clans would get byes in rounds that nobody ever beat them. Clans ranked #1-8 (KORT, TOFU, AOC, AFOS, TSM, EMP, PACK, IA) NEVER in CC history were beaten by some clan who is ranked #9 or lower. Easy way to check this is see column "Best Showing in 1 Year" in F400 ranking. NOBODY ranked #9 and lower beat any of top 8 clans in last 1 year. This statement includes big wars but also includes Clan League 4 where top clan from each group was advancing to Division 1, and (is it surprising?) in every of the 7 group some of top clans won the first place, and in one group where top clans were together, they won the first and second place. So, in 7 groups there were 4 or 5 other clans who tried to reach #1 place and NOBODY of those total 31 "lower" clans achieved to do an upset.
So this is consideration of last one year. Let's consider last 2 years. Look at F400 ranking, March 1 2012. Look below 9th place (THOTA was at that time among top clans) and see who beat some of top clans? Only one case, FOED beat IA, but on that time when they beat IA they were ranked among top 8 clans, so it still falls into my statement that nobody ever outsied of top 8 beat any clan inside of top 8. Now look 2 years ago in Clan League 3. PACK and AFOS did not participate, IA and AOC were top placed in their group, KORT and TSM were top placed in their group, EMP was on top of their group, and TOFU was on top of their group. In quarterfinals KORT beat LOW, IA beat MYTH. So again, even if we look 2 years back and even if we consider League results played in very small sets where luck can have big role so upsets are more likely to happen, NOBODY out of top 8 ever eliminated anyone who is in top 8.
So now when I prove this fact, is getting bye until top 16 really some undeserved privilege? Is being in top 16 something that those clans would not get with or without bye? They will get top 16 place anyway, with or without bye, which is enough proven by tracking their results in past 2 years. Now, it comes question, will we put them in round 32 and sacrifice some (no matter random chosen or seeded chosen) mid-ranked or lower-ranked clan to be hard beaten and kicked out of the tournament in non interesting match, or we will give them bye and allow mid-ranked and low-ranked clans to have some real fun playing amongst themselves, together with /bragging rights/skill/organization/motivation/self-confidence/improve as clan/ which are going together with that win? I am very sure second option is much better. Essence of any tournament is that it produces interesting matches. In interesting matches everyone enjoys, both players and spectators. In non interesting matches nobody enjoys. And option 3 is ensuring that we will have the most possible interesting matches, in every round.

I would like to give my opinion.My opinion is only based om my competitive view and not on personal matters or my own clan interests.

I believe option 3 is the best until round3. In round 3 ALL matches should be pure RANDOM. Enough of seedings, because this is still a cup and a cup should be unpredictable.
(to illustrate this try to imagine old days Champions League draws..you have seedings in early stages, then its pure random)

I think this is by far the most fair and entertaining system.

By proving in previous statement how much are top 8 clans above all others (fact that NOBODY out of top 8 in last 2 years beat any of top 8 clans proves it enough), I think this suggestion can be used, but not from top 16, but rather from top 8. I personally like qwert's 3.a) suggestion, where just top half of the draw is seeded. And we can do that way in round 1,2,3, and make it completely random from Quarterfinals. If there were some cases in past that clans #9-16 or lower beat any clan #1-8 then random in round 16 could be considered, but since it is not case, then we should have at least those 8 seeds in round 16. Who prove themselves to be able to beat any top 8 clan, they can have random draw after that because top 8 clans already proved in past that they can play very competitive matches amongst each other, while clans lower than #9 did not prove that they can play competitive matches vs clans #1-8.

Again, regarding random draws, the followers of teams/ clubs in an open sport cup competition will have the very basic viewpoint, to win the cup you have to beat the 2nd best team (or the team that beat them) somewhere along the way, whether it be round 1,2,3, the semi or in the final itself.

CC is not a spectator sport and neither does it have fans, there is absolutely no need to manipulate/ seed to a "spectacle" final, beyond those involved and a mere handful of others, no-one cares!

More important point than (trying to) win a cup is having fun in playing games. Fun is primary, result is secondary. Or you put result over fun? Would you agree that someone gift you CC4 win without fun (let's say every other clan sign out so only your clan stays in competition and get default win)? You would probably not be happy in that case, because fun and adrenaline in playing competitive games is what we want, and result is secondary. And option 3 will ensure the most fun and adrenaline for the whole range of clans. With option 1 clans #25 and lower nor clans #1-8 have fun. They play very uncompetitive matches which nobody enjoys. With Random draw number of uncompetitive matches can even be much bigger, even in later rounds. About Random draw, I am not afraid that my clan will get top clans in Rounds 1,2,3, it would be good in my opinion. What I am afraid is that my clan can get clans lower than #25 in rounds 1,2,3, if we "luckily" enter in "easy" side of draw. One round lasts approximately 2 months, so "luckily" entering my clan into easy side of draw means 6 months of not having fun in playing my games. It means 6 months of sending my lower maps in home set in order to try lower my playing field and have more interesting matches. Thanks, but majority of us play this game for fun, and there is really no fun in beating someone hard by big margin, and there is even less fun if draw put someone very strong in side of draw with many others very weak. Several months of not having fun in playing games. Great deal! If top clans wants to play vs lower clans they can easy arrange normal war. The fact that there are ZERO normal wars between top clans and lower clans obviously is telling that we do not want to play vs weak opponents.

I actually think, that joskos ideas are a serious attempt to accommodate the interests & wishes of those lower ranked clans. His suggestion would avoid any one-sided challenges in the early rounds, where the top dogs beat up the lower ranked clans, but instead let the lower ranked clans have some serious challenges among themselves, against clans of similar rank, giving them a chance get some wins in the course of the tournament, earn themselves a reputation (and medals, yawn), gain experience and then get a shot at a top clan in the later rounds, that they will likely not get outside of this tournament.

This sounds to me like a fair enough incentive for lower ranked clans to participate in the CCup, have fun playing it, taking something out of it. Whilst at the same time preserving the main character of the tournament, that has been the incentive for the top clans in the first 3 editions.

Maybe a compromise could be reached, if the bye system was not quite so extreme ? Not giving 8 clans bye´s for 2 entire rounds, but maybe only 4 (the semi-finalists of the last Cup) or even only 2 (the finalists) ? Give the others (3-8 or 5-8) only 1 round ?

The lower ranked clans, who are opposing the bye idea as *unfair* and/or *advantageous for the top clans* should consider here, that this system would in fact give them a much more even playing field in the early rounds, guaranteeing them opposition of similar rank & skill, whereas a total random draw could still put them up against one of the top clans in Round 1.

ahunda said so much great points so it was really hard choice what to quote and what to eliminate. He is better English speaker than me so you may read his (or Foxy) posts if you do not get my point from my posts.
Also, you suggested reducing number of byes for top clans. That is already adressed. If 32 clans sign in, 8 clans get byes to round 16, and for every 2 new clans signed in, 2 less clans get a bye to round 16. If 40 clans sign in, then just 4 top clans get a bye to Round 16. I did not make graphics but the format and reducing number of byes according to more clans signed in are explained here: viewtopic.php?f=438&t=186880&start=60#p4085818
My initial idea was seeded draw, but after reading qwert's suggestion about half seeded and half random draw, I agreed to that here: viewtopic.php?f=438&t=186880&start=60#p4085887. The fact that there are options 3.a) and 3.b) is just to show that both draw typed can work with Option 3, but I am actually more supporting Option 3.a) where just half of the draw is random.

[IcePack]

Im opposed to josko set up (that much has been made clear thru all this thread).

However, his set up is much better than the all random and I would gladly accept that before the other option currently pushed by lower clans (and we won't get any byes, so it's not us asking for easier ride).

This is why I asked for the tiered voting.

[benga]

OSA has beaten BOFM while they were ranked 5, OSA was then around ranked around 30.

[josko.ri]

OSA has beaten BOFM while they were ranked 5, OSA was then around ranked around 30.

I was considering current top 8 clans and their never being beaten in last 2 years. I was not considering top 8 clans of all the times.

[Leehar]

OSA has beaten BOFM while they were ranked 5, OSA was then around ranked around 30.

bofm may have been in top 10, but I don't remember them ever being inside the top 5?

[Qwert]

i explained many time why need to be random draws with byes for top clans. Im glad that Josko ,member of no1 clan here in CC, see great benefit of Option 3, and try to explaine , but no effect.
from 29 medals(not included semifinal and final) in CC3-top 8 clans take 17 medals,, and if you add clans from 9 to 16 who take 7 medals--these its total 24 medals awarded for clans ranked from 1 to 16 place- and what left for clans ranked from 17 to 32 place>5 medals

Now to see CC2(not incuded semis and final)
Top 8 take 19 medals
9-16 take 7 medals
17-32 take 1 medal
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With option 3 things will change in favour to bouth side(top clans and low clans) and first time clans from 17 to 32 will start with chance to fight for medal, not to be stunt in battlefield. In that way medals will be equaly disatributed, and not that Top 8 clans take above 50% of all medals.
Its better to each round get stronger and stronger opponent, then to be eliminate right in first round with 35-5 , and these its not benefit for high clans to.

[chapcrap]

So, someone from the number 1 clan wants a bye and says it is good for lower ranked clans to let him have it? How does anyone buy that? I really can't believe lower ranked clans are buying into it.

If you are ranked 20th, how does it help you to give other clans byes? Giving 8 byes can even add another round to the tournament, meaning that you actually have to win more wars to win the whole competition. If you don't think you can beat a top clan, then just vote for one round of randomization and no byes. Randomizing more than once is pointless.