THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

[Armandolas]

Oh well. Since crispybits addressed me directly, I will respond once more:

I am pretty tired too, but I think, your argument is false. If you are looking at any seeding system in official sports events, they always give an easier draw to the top players. It´s the nature of the beast.

Looking at the major football tournaments for example (World Cup both Qualification & Tournament, Euro Cup Qualification & Tournament, Champions League), it is always the same principle: The top teams are put in pot 1, the next strongest teams in pot 2, and so on til the weakest teams in pot 4 or 5 or whatever. Groups will then be drawn, so that each group has 1 team from each pot.

The result is, that the top teams from pot 1 face easier opposition in their group than the teams from pot 3 or 4 or 5. That´s just how it works. The purpose of the seeding is not to give every team the same chance to face a pot 1 team or not, but to make sure, that overall all groups have similar average strength, avoiding a lop-sided draw, where 1 group might end up with 3-4 teams from pot 1, and another group with not a single team from pot 1.

The seeding for the CCup so far has been done in a way, that we had the exact same average in every bracket: 1-32 on one side, 2-31 on the other. This created the perfect mathematical balance overall, but it also created certain problems like very uneven match-ups in the first rounds. This has been acknowledged, and changes & improvements can be discussed, for sure.

As for your questions concerning KORT: Them being the #1 seed, they naturally had the easiest draw under the old system. The system however also suggested, that they had to beat 3 Top 10 clans to win the tournament. And if everything had worked according to seeds (the higher seeded clans winning all match-ups), they´d have needed to beat the #4 clan in the semi finals, the #2 clan in the finals. Sounds like a tough challenge to me, and certainly an accomplishment, if achieved.

The simple truth is: You couldn´t have arranged a harder way for them under a seeding system in a knock out tournament, whilst maintaining overall balance & guaranteeing a similarly tough scenario for any of the other top clans, who were on the other side of the bracket

Hello dont you have allready CL5 that allready address your concerns and uses the method you like?
Why are u even talking about sports competition if you know that a cup with format of a tree mostly random?The only thing that can happen in a cup are the BYEs, or in early stages the 50% seed, but not untill the end.If you do seeds till the end then then competition is a total FARSE. There is NO sports competition that does
I like the BYE system , but well some other dont agree with BYES, so no one is ever happy.
This is turning to a very childish discussion:
Some say, "if i dont play my own way i dont play at all".Others say, "we want to play like this , this is the way we gonna play."
Please act like adults, act like educated people and make things that can suit both sides forgetting only your belly button.It should be so fucking simple.
If "you" want this and "he" we wants that, come on...have a little of this and a little of that.

Now a piece of advice on you trying to black mail small clans with the absense of your clan :
First of all, ive seen you writing about earning respect by own merit. So if you think your clan earn respect by doing that.You are terrible wrong.Its the other way around
A clan scene will allways decline, when clans dont think of common interests and dont decide together, thinking that they can manage on their own.
Both levels need each other.
I may have 0 experience in the CC clanworld, but i know what im talking about, since ive been in the gaming scene for too many years to know this.

[niMic]

If you do seeds till the end then then competition is a total FARSE. There is NO sports competition that does

Doesn't the biggest competition on the planet do this? I believe the entire knockout stage of the World Cup is completely determined by the groups, which are themselves heavily decided by seeding rules.

[Armandolas]

Is this comp going to have a group stage?i guess this is not CL5 (a very nice comp)
To win a group you must play against the other teams in the group.Then u get seeded according if u finish 1st or second, not your ranking in FIfa
So for me, a good example of a cup, are the National cup of every other UEFA country(FA cup for ex.)
That cup is for EVERYONE...but the top teams start later on the competition.Early stages are for smaller teams to play each other make them win a few games, then deserve the right to play the big ones, and maybe get lucky on the draw and shine.

I just dont understand (even if i dont agre with that method), what is the big crying about a pure random if it goes through democratic vote.
So do u believe in democracy only if you win?


I believe that if both "sides" can find a middle point in negotiations instead of arguing, it would benefit everyone.

[torres44cm]

Our clan SoH votes option 1 if it will get this voting done, however, this is turning into a debate of whiners. if teams refuse to play, well then so be it and let's move on.

Torres

[Qwert]

crispybits wrote:I've asked this in CDF aswell, but does the seeding argument boil down to either or both of these, and am I missing something? (just trying to crystallise the exact points in a concise way rather than the long posts where it can be difficult to distill the exact point being mande)

1) Tradition - it's always been this way and it shouldn't change now
2) Achievement - to win the competition you should have to fight the top clans, a random easy draw devalues the achievement

Achievement ? From what i read, for you achievement are win a Cup. Well consider that every match in every round are count for medal achievement, i must say even if mine clan don't win a Cup ,but at least make one round victory , these will be achievement not disaster. That why i proposed option 3 format, so that everybody(not just top 8 or top 16) have equal chance for medal achievement.

[jetsetwilly]

What is the view on seeding the top 8 in the bracket but applying a random draw to everyone else ?

[evildoer]

Really, CC is about random. Random drops, random dice, random whatever. Drop every clan in the random slot and how it comes out it comes out. If your an "elite clan" why are you scared to play an "elite clan". Are you a wolf or are you a sheep?

[Vid_FISO]

What is the view on seeding the top 8 in the bracket but applying a random draw to everyone else ?

I think it's a very good idea!

[Qwert]

ok, lets try to create example using option 3. 32 clan cup competition (these its deep explanation of 3a)
For seed are used f400

round 1 -random draw
Pot 1 -clans from 17 to 24 place
(MD)
(LOW)
(TNC)
(G1)
(DYN)
(KOA)
(GR)
(MM)

Pot 2 -clans from 25 to 32 place
(TFFS)
(WAR)
(LEG)
(HH)
(1RFG)
(LHDD)
(KNT)
(UM8)

draw
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
round 2 -random draw

Pot 1 - join clans from 9 to 16 place
(IA)
(ID)
(OSA)
(PIG)
(OTP)
(FOED)
(MYTH)
(BOTF)

Pot 2
WINNER ROUND 1
WINNER ROUND 1
WINNER ROUND 1
WINNER ROUND 1
WINNER ROUND 1
WINNER ROUND 1
WINNER ROUND 1
WINNER ROUND 1

draw
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
====================================

Round 3 top 16-random draw

Pot 1- join clans from 1 to 8 place
(KORT)
(TOFU)
(AOC)
(AFOS)
(PACK)
(EMP)
(TSM)
(FALL)

Pot 2
WINNER ROUND 2
WINNER ROUND 2
WINNER ROUND 2
WINNER ROUND 2
WINNER ROUND 2
WINNER ROUND 2
WINNER ROUND 2
WINNER ROUND 2

draw
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
=================================
Round 4 top 8- random draw

Pot 1
WINNER ROUND 3
WINNER ROUND 3
WINNER ROUND 3
WINNER ROUND 3
WINNER ROUND 3
WINNER ROUND 3
WINNER ROUND 3
WINNER ROUND 3

draw
pot 1 vs pot 1
pot 1 vs pot 1
pot 1 vs pot 1
pot 1 vs pot 1
=======================================
Round 5 Semifinal-random draw

Pot 1
WINNER ROUND 4
WINNER ROUND 4
WINNER ROUND 4
WINNER ROUND 4

draw
pot 1 vs pot 1
pot 1 vs pot 1
=================================
Round 6 Final

Winner Round 5 vs Winner Round 5
===================================
In these format, from start everybody have equal chance to get equal quality opponent, ofcourse how you go up, then you get stronger and stronger opponents. What its most importan, you have equal chance for medal award(achivement)

[crispybits]

Not quite qwert. In round one, ranks 17 to 24 are guaranteed an easier opponent than ranks 25-32. In round 2 ranks 9-16 are gauranteed an easier draw than any of the round 1 winners. In round 3, ranks 1-8 are guaranteed an easier draw than any of the winners of round 2. If you're already giving 2 byes (maybe 3 if there's a play-in round) to some clans, then they do not also need to be given preferential draws when they enter. Just let each round be totally random, not split into pots, and you're getting closer to something that's truly "equal chance for a medal award" in any given round.

[IcePack]

Posted in CDF as well, but:

What about option 1 where instead of 1 v 32, 2 v 31, 3 v 30...18 v 19
It's 1 v 19, 2 v 20, 3 v 21... 18 v 32

Each clan has an equally lower opponent then the next

[crispybits]

Also posted in CDF (it's a pain sometimes that this discussion is split)

Lets take what I assume would be the worst nightmare random initial draw and apply balancing

1 v 2
3 v 4
5 v 6
7 v 8
9 v 10
11 v 12
13 v 14
15 v 16
(etc etc, I think I've made my point)

Now apply that balancing formula, and you end up with the following:

31 v 32
9 v 10
1 v 2
23 v 24

27 v 28
5 v 6
19 v 20
13 v 14

11 v 12
29 v 30
3 v 4
21 v 22

7 v 8
15 v 16
17 v 18
25 v 26

In this scenario, you get two of the top 8 in each quarter of the draw. If all goes to seeding it will be 1 v 5 and 2 v 6 in the SFs.

Number 1 clans worst run to the final is 2, 23 9, 5, 3 (average 8.4). Number 32 clans worst run to the final is 31, 9, 1, 5, 2 (average 9.6) (compared to a worst run of 18.7 for clan 1 under option 1 and a worst run of 6.2 for clan 32)

Both sides of the draw have a difficulty rating of 0 (as in both are equally difficult), and indeed both halves of each side also have a difficulty rating of 0.

[Vid_FISO]

Also posted in CDF (it's a pain sometimes that this discussion is split)

Lets take what I assume would be the worst nightmare random initial draw and apply balancing

1 v 2
3 v 4
5 v 6
7 v 8
9 v 10
11 v 12
13 v 14
15 v 16
(etc etc, I think I've made my point)

Is that really a "worst nightmare"? As even as a draw that you can have with each and every clan thinking that they've got a bloody good shot at a win as long as they play as well as they possibly can.

[crispybits]

It's the worst case we are being presented with from the higher clans, in that a random draw could give the hardest possible opponents for all the top clans and the easiest possible opponents for all the lower clans. I'm not really suggesting it's actually a worst case, just trying to show that the balancing method I described could still produce even brackets with the most extreme draw.

[Chariot of Fire]

It's taken me hours to read-up on all this, but I've taken it all in. Has everyone lost sight of what this tournament was meant to be? It was really just a framework in which challenges were held. No-one really minded who they were to face - a challenge is a challenge, right? This is now becoming an elite tournament, but it shouldn't be elitist. Here are some simple facts:

1. There are 4 clans in CC3 who have yet to play the final and 3rd place playoff. There are time constraints and I think most of the clan world would like to see CC4 start asap.

SOLUTION - Give a first round bye to just the 4 clans who reached the semi-finals of the preceding Conqueror's Cup

2. There are multiple proposals for how the draw should be made (random/byes/seedings)

SOLUTION - Just make the entire tournament random in Rnd 1. Draw a grid, place one of each of the semi-finalists in one quarter of the Rnd 2 draw. The rest is done randomly - it will be fun. So what if a 'Top 4' clan has to meet the #5 clan in Rnd 2. It doesn't matter does it? To lift the cup you have to meet someone good somewhere along the way, so it may as well be in an early round. This is fair for everyone. Trying to segregate the Top 8 clans every time is going to lead to repetitive encounters.

3. Subjective rulings, e.g. timing out in an esc or nuke spoils game. Some agree, some do not, and no-one can prove what circumstances caused the timeout.

SOLUTION - Leave it to the clans to negotiate between themselves, just as they would in a normal challenge. Some clans don't mind timing out so no harm no foul. Those that do can determine what the penalty will be when negotiating. Let's at least give some leeway to clans to make their own terms and maintain the tradition that this cup once stood for.


The above would (perhaps only in my opinion) give the fairest competition. Introduce random - it's called 'luck of the draw' and exists in a myriad of professional tournaments. I would have no qualms with my own clan starting in Round 1 if it was preferred that way - the only reason I think the last 4 from the previous cup should get a bye is for expediency, otherwise you can put this off for another four months. The only clans that warrant a bye are those who are still contesting the previous tournament. Not the Nos.1-4 seeds from the F400 - that's elitist nonsense - but simply the ones who reached the semis. So if TOFU gets knocked out before the semis in CC4 yet we are #1 on the F400 we start in Rnd 1 of CC5, just like 90% of all the other clans participating.

It really couldn't be any simpler, fairer or more practical. Thanks anyway.

[uckuki]

cup should be a random draw, doesn't matter if top 2 clans meet in the first round. that's
the charm of cup competition. league is for structure and stuff to create the pecking order.
in cup competition every team should have an equal chance regardless of strength.

qualif. round bye is ok I guess, but after that it should be 1 pot.

[Qwert]

Not quite qwert. In round one, ranks 17 to 24 are guaranteed an easier opponent than ranks 25-32. In round 2 ranks 9-16 are gauranteed an easier draw than any of the round 1 winners. In round 3, ranks 1-8 are guaranteed an easier draw than any of the winners of round 2. If you're already giving 2 byes (maybe 3 if there's a play-in round) to some clans, then they do not also need to be given preferential draws when they enter. Just let each round be totally random, not split into pots, and you're getting closer to something that's truly "equal chance for a medal award" in any given round.

now i try to figure what are your definition of equal opponent? If you make total random draw,, how can these be equal to all?
Its look that you see all clans to be equal, but these its not right.
Mine round 1 format draw its much equal, then what will be total random what you advocate. In option 3, 32 ranked clan could get maximum 17 ranked,or minimum 24 ranked. In total random 32 could get no1 ranked, and these its much worse. Ofcourse option 2 have something what option 3 dont have, and these its luck factor, because you expect to have luck in draw so that each round get luck and to avoide high ranked, but once when you get high ranked, then your clan can not play with top 8(i even think can not play with top 16), so in these match luck can not help,and you will lost 35-5.
Total random draw not guarantee equal opponent,, but option 3 guarantee that.

[crispybits]

I didnt mention option 2 - and for the hundredth time it's not about trying to get easier / more closely matched opponents, it's about having equal chances to get any rank of opponent.

If you seed the pots, then you guarantee that clan 31 will face a minimum 7 rank defecit, and you guarantee that clan 18 will face a minimum 7 rank advantage. I don't want either of those to exist. I want rank 31 to potentially face a 1 rank difference in either direction, and I want the 18 rank clan to face a potential 1 rank difference in either direction. I want the draw to be equal for all clans (obviously 17 and 32 can't face easier/harder opponents in round 1, but in any system there will be a best and a worst who cannot face opponents higher or lower respectively - that's very different to setting up the draw with this inherent inequality)

I like your system and I think in principle it is one very viable option for compromise, I simply disagree with having byes AND seeding within each round, it's overkill.

Look at it this way, put the following ranks into a pot:

1, 23, 16, 32, 12, 7

Now we have to draw those clans. Option 1 guarantees 1 the easiest match against 32. Option 2 means that 1 has an equal chance of playing any other clan. Option 3 would first put 12, 16, 23 and 32 in a draw, and guarantee either 12 or 16 the easiest match. 23 has no chance to draw 32. Assuming 12 and 16 go through, it then guarantees number 1 or 7 the easiest match, 12 has no chance to draw 16. I oppose option 1 and option 3 as you describe it because of these guarantees.

[Keefie]

To ChariotofFire and Uckuki

[mcshanester29]

It's taken me hours to read-up on all this, but I've taken it all in. Has everyone lost sight of what this tournament was meant to be? It was really just a framework in which challenges were held. No-one really minded who they were to face - a challenge is a challenge, right? This is now becoming an elite tournament, but it shouldn't be elitist. Here are some simple facts:

1. There are 4 clans in CC3 who have yet to play the final and 3rd place playoff. There are time constraints and I think most of the clan world would like to see CC4 start asap.

SOLUTION - Give a first round bye to just the 4 clans who reached the semi-finals of the preceding Conqueror's Cup

2. There are multiple proposals for how the draw should be made (random/byes/seedings)

SOLUTION - Just make the entire tournament random in Rnd 1. Draw a grid, place one of each of the semi-finalists in one quarter of the Rnd 2 draw. The rest is done randomly - it will be fun. So what if a 'Top 4' clan has to meet the #5 clan in Rnd 2. It doesn't matter does it? To lift the cup you have to meet someone good somewhere along the way, so it may as well be in an early round. This is fair for everyone. Trying to segregate the Top 8 clans every time is going to lead to repetitive encounters.

3. Subjective rulings, e.g. timing out in an esc or nuke spoils game. Some agree, some do not, and no-one can prove what circumstances caused the timeout.

SOLUTION - Leave it to the clans to negotiate between themselves, just as they would in a normal challenge. Some clans don't mind timing out so no harm no foul. Those that do can determine what the penalty will be when negotiating. Let's at least give some leeway to clans to make their own terms and maintain the tradition that this cup once stood for.


The above would (perhaps only in my opinion) give the fairest competition. Introduce random - it's called 'luck of the draw' and exists in a myriad of professional tournaments. I would have no qualms with my own clan starting in Round 1 if it was preferred that way - the only reason I think the last 4 from the previous cup should get a bye is for expediency, otherwise you can put this off for another four months. The only clans that warrant a bye are those who are still contesting the previous tournament. Not the Nos.1-4 seeds from the F400 - that's elitist nonsense - but simply the ones who reached the semis. So if TOFU gets knocked out before the semis in CC4 yet we are #1 on the F400 we start in Rnd 1 of CC5, just like 90% of all the other clans participating.

It really couldn't be any simpler, fairer or more practical. Thanks anyway.

I actually think this is a good compromise!! I like this format!!

[Qwert]

I didnt mention option 2 - and for the hundredth time it's not about trying to get easier opponents, it's about having equal chances to get any rank of opponent.

If you seed thepots, then you guarantee that clan 31 will face a minimum 7 rank defecit, and you guarantee that clan 18 will face a minimum 7 rank advantage. I don't want either of those to exist. I want rank 31 to potentially face a 1 rank difference in either direction, and I want the 18 rank clan to face a potential 1 rank difference in either direction. I want the draw to be equal for all clans (obviously 17 and 32 can't face easier/harder opponents in round 1, but in any system there will be a best and a worst who cannot face opponents higher or lower respectively - that's very different to setting up the draw with this inherent inequality)

I like your system and I think in principle it is one very viable option for compromise, I simply disagree with having byes AND seeding within each round, it's overkill.

Look at it this way, put the following ranks into a pot:

1, 23, 16, 32, 12, 7

Now we have to draw those clans. Option 1 guarantees 1 the easiest match against 32. Option 2 means that 1 has an equal chance of playing any other clan. Option 3 would first put 12, 16, 23 and 32 in a draw, and guarantee either 12 or 16 the easiest match. 23 has no chance to draw 32. Assuming 12 and 16 go through, it then guarantees number 1 or 7 the easiest match, 12 has no chance to draw 16. I oppose option 1 and option 3 as you describe it because of these guarantees.

equal chance to get any rank of opponent? Ok, so you dont mind to play agains all , but you want that everybody have same chances? I must say that these system of competition dont exist nowhere , so its not possibile to implement.
These its like some team from 6th league play in National Cup Finale,avoid all Stronger teams in entire competition.

[crispybits]

It exists in a hell of a lot of competitions. And it's perfectly possible to implement. Because it's option 2 or unseeded option 3 as I described it pure and simple.

The FA Cup for one. The bigger teams enter in later rounds, but in each round all of the teams are put into one pot, and any team in that round can meet any other team in that round. As far as I know most domestic football cup competitions operate in exactly this way.

[Qwert]

It exists in a hell of a lot of competitions. And it's perfectly possible to implement. Because it's option 2 or unseeded option 3 as I described it pure and simple.

The FA Cup for one. The bigger teams enter in later rounds, but in each round all of the teams are put into one pot, and any team in that round can meet any other team in that round. As far as I know most domestic football cup competitions operate in exactly this way.

yes,i just read FA cup in Wikipedia, and High ranked clans get byes, and they not play in first 3 rounds. Unfortunatly we dont have 700 teams, so that we can make enough big gap betwene so many rounds, so that these could be same like FA Cup.


unseeded option 3? You realy belive that no1 ranked clan are same like no 32 ranked clan?

[crispybits]

I mean option 3 but with all names in each round put into one pot rather than 2, with top clans still getting a bye to later rounds.

[jetsetwilly]

It's taken me hours to read-up on all this, but I've taken it all in. Has everyone lost sight of what this tournament was meant to be? It was really just a framework in which challenges were held. No-one really minded who they were to face - a challenge is a challenge, right? This is now becoming an elite tournament, but it shouldn't be elitist. Here are some simple facts:

1. There are 4 clans in CC3 who have yet to play the final and 3rd place playoff. There are time constraints and I think most of the clan world would like to see CC4 start asap.

SOLUTION - Give a first round bye to just the 4 clans who reached the semi-finals of the preceding Conqueror's Cup

2. There are multiple proposals for how the draw should be made (random/byes/seedings)

SOLUTION - Just make the entire tournament random in Rnd 1. Draw a grid, place one of each of the semi-finalists in one quarter of the Rnd 2 draw. The rest is done randomly - it will be fun. So what if a 'Top 4' clan has to meet the #5 clan in Rnd 2. It doesn't matter does it? To lift the cup you have to meet someone good somewhere along the way, so it may as well be in an early round. This is fair for everyone. Trying to segregate the Top 8 clans every time is going to lead to repetitive encounters.
.

Good post COF. (personal view not official CD view )

Our hand will probably be forced anyway as far as giving the top 4 a bye goes if we want to start this anytime soon. It depends how many clans enter and whether a play in round is needed.

Vote tally so far:

Option 1 10
Option 2 16
Option 3 8

So that's 34 from a possible 50 votes.

The vote concludes in about 24 hours.