THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Chariot of Fire on Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:41 pm

Yeah, coz it's well-known that we can consistently roll better dice than our opponents 9 times out of 10 :roll:
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby josko.ri on Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:19 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:Yeah, coz it's well-known that we can consistently roll better dice than our opponents 9 times out of 10 :roll:

Nope, with that high skill difference, in average 5 of 10 times you will roll better dice, and 4 of 10 times you will outplay them even with worse dice.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby eddie2 on Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:42 am

Doc_Brown wrote:It's an interesting proposal. Let me offer a variation on it: How about a super-cup tournament that will host the winners of CCup, CL, ACC, and NCC? Granted, now we're talking 2 additional wars, but a competition between those winners is likely to be a pretty good event. That way we're not talking about a potential #1 vs #25. You could see a #1 win CCup, a #4 win CL, a #7 win ACC, and a new #15 or so win NCC.

I realize this is starting to get off topic again. Since Eddie had brought up a top v. bottom type event, I thought this could take a form like that. If CCup retains a strict ranking-based bracket structure and starts to cater more to top clans while the ACC is more oriented to the lower ranked clans. Anyway. Not trying to push either way, I just wanted to throw out an idea that could incorporate Eddie's suggestion.


i like what you are trying to say doc brown but i do not think it would work like that... top ranked clans are already trying to delay this event due to still taking part in last years event.. i brought this idea in mainly to reduce the timeline and fairness into this event which will give all clans some form of chance to progress...

and josko you are saying about top clans bringing there main game against lower ranked clans so as to win 90 percent.. So if a lower ranked clan produced there home set as luxumberg quads doodle quads which could result if they get first go and average dice in first shot (eliminating you first to go player) they could actually win 2 games without you even getting a shot...

and josko this is not the same as option 3... option 3 was still a event that would last longer than a year...
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:52 am

josko.ri wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:Yeah, coz it's well-known that we can consistently roll better dice than our opponents 9 times out of 10 :roll:

Nope, with that high skill difference, in average 5 of 10 times you will roll better dice, and 4 of 10 times you will outplay them even with worse dice.


Have to just correct you there mate. If we get better dice 50% of the time (fair average, right) it means we get worse dice in 5 of 10 games That means we'd have to beat them tactically in 4 out of 5 games, not 4 out of 10.

Whichever way the numbers are computed, the simple fact is a win rate of 90% is unfeasible. Not when the oppo choose half the maps.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby josko.ri on Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:22 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:Yeah, coz it's well-known that we can consistently roll better dice than our opponents 9 times out of 10 :roll:

Nope, with that high skill difference, in average 5 of 10 times you will roll better dice, and 4 of 10 times you will outplay them even with worse dice.


Have to just correct you there mate. If we get better dice 50% of the time (fair average, right) it means we get worse dice in 5 of 10 games That means we'd have to beat them tactically in 4 out of 5 games, not 4 out of 10.

Whichever way the numbers are computed, the simple fact is a win rate of 90% is unfeasible. Not when the oppo choose half the maps.

You are again wrong, because the same like you expect to win 4 of 5 with bad dice, you can also lose some of the 5 with "better" dice. Did it never happen to you to lose when you rolled better dice? So still, You need in average win 4 of 10 where you have lower dice, and 5 of 10 when you have better dice but you still need to play well to make it win because it is also possible to lose with better dice.

However it is, the same is to everyone. We have just achieved 100% win rate in away field vs #37 clan when they chose ALL the maps, so if we are able to do so, then you for sure should be able to win over 90% on half home half away field vs #43 clan if you wish to jump over us in scoreboard. If not, well second place in scoreboard is still a good rank. ;)

eddie2 wrote:and josko this is not the same as option 3... option 3 was still a event that would last longer than a year...

Aaand again you are wrong. 25 clans in each tournament (which you proposed) would need 5 rounds to be finished, plus additional round where winners of each tournament play for ultimate winner = 6 total rounds. Option 3 also had 6 total rounds, so how it makes my proposal longer than your proposal? In fact, my proposal would made tournament shorter than 1 year because new edition would be possible to start before the old edition ends, because semifinalists and finalists of previous edition would not play 2 opening rounds of new edition. With your proposal it is impossible, we would need to wait to finish all 5+1 rounds before starting new edition, so my proposal would actually last way LESS than you proposal. As I said, not everyone is able to read between lines and therefore it is not weird that they make wrong conclusions.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:34 am

*****
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby jetsetwilly on Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:35 am

An interesting discussion gents but take it elsewhere please.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:57 am

josko.ri wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:Yeah, coz it's well-known that we can consistently roll better dice than our opponents 9 times out of 10 :roll:

Nope, with that high skill difference, in average 5 of 10 times you will roll better dice, and 4 of 10 times you will outplay them even with worse dice.


Have to just correct you there mate. If we get better dice 50% of the time (fair average, right) it means we get worse dice in 5 of 10 games That means we'd have to beat them tactically in 4 out of 5 games, not 4 out of 10.

Whichever way the numbers are computed, the simple fact is a win rate of 90% is unfeasible. Not when the oppo choose half the maps.

You are again wrong, because the same like you expect to win 4 of 5 with bad dice, you can also lose some of the 5 with "better" dice. Did it never happen to you to lose when you rolled better dice? So still, You need in average win 4 of 10 where you have lower dice, and 5 of 10 when you have better dice but you still need to play well to make it win because it is also possible to lose with better dice.

However it is, the same is to everyone. We have just achieved 100% win rate in away field vs #37 clan when they chose ALL the maps, so if we are able to do so, then you for sure should be able to win over 90% on half home half away field vs #43 clan if you wish to jump over us in scoreboard. If not, well second place in scoreboard is still a good rank. ;)

eddie2 wrote:and josko this is not the same as option 3... option 3 was still a event that would last longer than a year...

Aaand again you are wrong. 25 clans in each tournament (which you proposed) would need 5 rounds to be finished, plus additional round where winners of each tournament play for ultimate winner = 6 total rounds. Option 3 also had 6 total rounds, so how it makes my proposal longer than your proposal? In fact, my proposal would made tournament shorter than 1 year because new edition would be possible to start before the old edition ends, because semifinalists and finalists of previous edition would not play 2 opening rounds of new edition. With your proposal it is impossible, we would need to wait to finish all 5+1 rounds before starting new edition, so my proposal would actually last way LESS than you proposal. As I said, not everyone is able to read between lines and therefore it is not weird that they make wrong conclusions.


You are again wrong, because the same like you expect to win 4 of 5 with bad dice, you can also lose some of the 5 with "better" dice.


This is my whole point, so I am not 'wrong', you are. We have to assume that we will win the 5 games in which we get better dice (so your statement "you can lose some of the games in which you get better dice" makes no sense, otherwise you are implying our task then becomes even harder!). The fact we would have to start by winning our 50% of 'better dice' games is a given. That leaves 5 games in which the opposition get better dice, therefore we would have to win 4 of those 5 games against the run of the dice to achieve the 90% win rate. We have to win 100% of games in which the dice favour us, and 80% of the games in which they do not. Simple.

We have just achieved 100% win rate in away field vs #37 clan when they chose ALL the maps, so if we are able to do so, then you for sure should be able to win over 90% on half home half away field vs #43 clan if you wish to jump over us in scoreboard


Does your head fit through the door or are you desk-bound? So you won what, 8 out of 8 games? Hardly a large sample size is it. Freak results occur from time-to-time. I'm talking about the practice of purposefully pitting a high-ranked clan against a low-ranked clan - something you have vociferously spoken out about too. I fail to see the logic of your argument, or are you insinuating it's possible for a clan to maintain a win rate of 80+%? If so I shall happily stick some stats in your face.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby jetsetwilly on Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:02 am

Ahem
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby silversun6 on Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:21 am

common . just measure your dicks sizes already
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby niMic on Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:45 am

Josko is from the Balkans. I don't think we need to measure to know who would win.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby silversun6 on Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:55 am

niMic wrote:Josko is from the Balkans. I don't think we need to measure to know who would win.


now lets start a 19 pages "discussion" about geography, anatomy, religion, mathematics, aliens and Nazis...
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby crispybits on Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:08 am

Divine nazi alien time travelling zombie scientists? Sounds good to me :-P
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:17 am

crispybits wrote:Divine nazi alien time travelling zombie scientists? Sounds good to me :-P


Reminds me of the English professor who claimed that most best-sellers contained elements of religion, royalty, sex and mystery. He then gave an assignment to his class to write something containing those four key elements. After just one minute a student handed in his work. It read "Good God!" said the duchess, "I'm pregnant. I wonder whodunnit?"
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby josko.ri on Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:32 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:I fail to see the logic of your argument, or are you insinuating it's possible for a clan to maintain a win rate of 80+%? If so I shall happily stick some stats in your face.


Correct, I am insinuating that if you are player (in small sample) or clan (in big sample) who wants to be on top ranking place, then you need to be able to maintain a win rate of 80+% against average or lower than average opponents.

To prove my statements, I now made research about winning % in my team games from recent competitions (CL4 Phases 2,3,4, CL4-Divisional Cup, CC3 semis, CC2 semis and finals) where are included only matches played vs current top 8 clans. Result is 89-29 (75,4%). The lowest in CC3 vs TOFU 13-7 (65%) and the highest in CL4 Phase 3 vs EMP, AOC, PACK 15-2 (88,2%).

So, If it is possible to achieve over 75% win rate vs opponents who are top 8 and who have never lost a single 40+ war challenge vs any clan ranked lower than 9, how is then impossible to have more than 80% win rate vs mid ranked clans or 90% win rate vs low ranked clans? It is more than possible, and the given example has sample size of 118 games, so it is for sure not selective chosen good streak of results.

Actually, for me it is not weird that you think it is impossible for a clan to maintain so high win rate. If your are not able to achieve more than 6-12 (33%) and 7-11 (39%) scores in the most recent 2 wars vs PACK and KORT, it is really not surprising that in your opinion maintaining win rate of more than 80% sounds like science fiction.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby niMic on Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:33 am

silversun6 wrote:
niMic wrote:Josko is from the Balkans. I don't think we need to measure to know who would win.


now lets start a 19 pages "discussion" about geography, anatomy, religion, mathematics, aliens and Nazis...


Have you been watching the History Channel?
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:57 am

And there you go with the ridicule again. Classy. We still beat you though, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

As for your "to prove my statements" comment.....what you have quoted proves nothing. You are just cherry-picking your own stats, not the stats of your clan. I'm pretty sure if I look at KORT's record I'd find examples where it failed to record an 80%+ win rate against the lesser-ranked clans. Am I right?

You just argue for the sake of an argument, even when you know you are wrong.

Oh...and thanks for keeping tabs on my playing record, fanboy. At 13-23 in the last two challenges I really should be a cook with that win rate, but I'm not. Must be something to do with your method of counting and how you choose to be conveniently selective.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby josko.ri on Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:14 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:And there you go with the ridicule again. Classy. We still beat you though, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Yup, 31/29 with accepting the last win gifted from the site glitch. Classy, you must be proud of it =D>

Chariot of Fire wrote:As for your "to prove my statements" comment.....what you have quoted proves nothing. You are just cherry-picking your own stats, not the stats of your clan. I'm pretty sure if I look at KORT's record I'd find examples where it failed to record an 80%+ win rate against the lesser-ranked clans. Am I right?

No, you are not right. My statement is that if it is possible for a player to achieve high win rate, then it is also possible for a clan to do it.
About KORT vs lesser-ranked clan you can find results lower than 80%, but it is not because it is our normal performance, it is because we play our weaker maps in those challenges, in order to give them more equal playing field.
Example to prove this:
My home set vs LOTZ in CC3 Rof32: Austro-Hungarian Empire, Balkan Peninsula, Yugoslavia, Ireland, no-one with unlimited fort. Some of those maps (Yugoslavia) I even played the first time in that challenge.
My home set vs TOFU in CC3 semis: 2*(Hive, FNA, BoA, W2.1, Eurasia), once C-man and WW2 Europe all with unlimited forts, and once C Rome doubles are all the maps/settings where past score of my team is 100% or around 100%.
If you want to answer on question "Is something possible?" then you need to consider challenges where clans/players were giving 100% of their performance (that is why I considered only wars vs top 8 ), and not challenges where we were sending our lower maps just to equalize playing level and have more interesting matches. That is why I excluded from consideration my team scores against lower clans, because in those matches we do not put into games 100% of our performance level.

Chariot of Fire wrote:Oh...and thanks for keeping tabs on my playing record, fanboy. At 13-23 in the last two challenges I really should be a cook with that win rate, but I'm not. Must be something to do with your method of counting and how you choose to be conveniently selective.

It was just a little remark pointing the real reason why you think it is impossible to have 80+% win rate. If you were achieving those scores by yourself on regular basis, then you would know it is possible. With lower than 40% win rate in recent challenges it is natural that 80%+ seems like a science fiction for you.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:21 am

You and your clan should therefore be able to maintain a very high win % according to your doctrine, yet it hasn't done so. Care to explain? Oh that's right...it's a dice game and sometimes things don't always go the way you want them to. That's CC for you. Even you have a whinge about the dice from time to time, otherwise we'd all know you simply cannot lose and we should all kneel in front of your greatness.

Yup, 31/29 with accepting the last win gifted from the site glitch. Classy, you must be proud of it


'Accepting' a win? It wasn't accepted, it was won. No-one offered it. It's very different from you claiming a 21 game forfeit to win a challenge. Remember that? Oh and last time I looked it was 30-27. Are you awarding yourself wins now?

My statement is that if it is possible for a player to achieve high win rate, then it is also possible for a clan to do it.


Possible, but it doesn't happen does it. Care to cite some examples? Your statements simply portray your clanmates in a bad light. You are great, they are not so great. Yeah, we get it.

About KORT vs lesser-ranked clan you can find results lower than 80%,


Haha, yet you reply with "No, you are not right" when in fact I am.

You are just a liar.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby josko.ri on Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:24 am

Sorry all for being off-topic in last comments, as at the end it went far away from the thread topic, so the ill speaking and turning true facts into false conclusions from the paranoia man I am going to ignore from now on.

However, I would like to applaud for CDs for finding very good final solution of format proposals. It was very hard task to find mid ground among so many diverse opinions, and I think the last official suggestion which went to voting was the best way to find the middle ground in order to satisfy the most clans. =D>

Just to point out, this statement is coming from person whose format proposal got the lowest total votes in last voting round, so if I am biased only to my own opinion, then I would for sure not support anything else other than my opinion, what majority of you are unfortunately doing.

jetsetwilly wrote:I will post below the draft for vote 2 that the CD's spent much time discussing yesterday.

We were keen to both maintain the democratic process we set out but also to try to get this a little closer to the middle if we could. We also need a swift resolution, we can't have votes going on forever.

We believe this is the closest we could get to achieving that goal.




Run off vote:

We have noted all the feedback on the cup format and as we proceed with the run off vote we have made a small change that we hope will take us closer to a middle ground on what is clearly a divisive issue.

You have 48 hours to make your choice. Please vote 1 or 2, you should not distinguish between a and b



If either option takes more than 75% of the total vote then it is declared the outright winner.

If Option 1 wins but takes less than 75% of the total vote then we will proceed with option 1 b which does introduce a significant random element purely to round 1.

If Option 2 wins but takes less than 75% of the total vote then we will proceed with option 2 b which introduces a significant seeded element purely to round 1.



In all cases we are assuming a play in round to get us down to 32 clans. All seeding will be taken from the F400 at the agreed start point.

If more than 32 clans do enter, then we can review the chosen option to see if a play in round was the most appropriate or if the system can be modified to cope with a different number.


1.Seeded bracket system


Option 1a uses a strict seeding method for the entire bracket to pair the clans.
Option 1b uses seeding for the top half of the bracket to pair the clans with a randomly drawn opponent.


show: Option 1a - Seed the entire bracket



show: Option 1b - Seed the top 16 to play random opponents in round 1



2. An entirely random draw for every round.

Option 2a - Full random for every round
Option 2b - The top 8 seeded clans are kept apart in round 1. The other x clans are paired randomly. All remaining rounds will see the clans paired randomly.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Vid_FISO on Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:34 am

josko.ri wrote:Sorry all for being off-topic in last comments, as at the end it went far away from the thread topic, so the ill speaking and turning true facts into false conclusions from the paranoia man I am going to ignore from now on.

However, I would like to applaud for CDs for finding very good final solution of format proposals. It was very hard task to find mid ground among so many diverse opinions, and I think the last official suggestion which went to voting was the best way to find the middle ground in order to satisfy the most clans. =D>

Just to point out, this statement is coming from person whose format proposal got the lowest total votes in last voting round, so if I am biased only to my own opinion, then I would for sure not support anything else other than my opinion, what majority of you are unfortunately doing.

jetsetwilly wrote:
If either option takes more than 75% of the total vote then it is declared the outright winner.

If Option 1 wins but takes less than 75% of the total vote then we will proceed with option 1 b which does introduce a significant random element purely to round 1.

If Option 2 wins but takes less than 75% of the total vote then we will proceed with option 2 b which introduces a significant seeded element purely to round 1.




Personally I find this a terrible way to go about things, those that favour one of the (b) options but would not be prepared to participate if one of the (a) options win are forced to wait until the last minute and change their vote should one option be running at over 75%, if too many decide to do that in the dying seconds then what the majority would be willing to accept might not win at all.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby IcePack on Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:45 am

Voting is underway
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby josko.ri on Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:58 am

Vid_FISO wrote:
josko.ri wrote:Sorry all for being off-topic in last comments, as at the end it went far away from the thread topic, so the ill speaking and turning true facts into false conclusions from the paranoia man I am going to ignore from now on.

However, I would like to applaud for CDs for finding very good final solution of format proposals. It was very hard task to find mid ground among so many diverse opinions, and I think the last official suggestion which went to voting was the best way to find the middle ground in order to satisfy the most clans. =D>

Just to point out, this statement is coming from person whose format proposal got the lowest total votes in last voting round, so if I am biased only to my own opinion, then I would for sure not support anything else other than my opinion, what majority of you are unfortunately doing.

jetsetwilly wrote:
If either option takes more than 75% of the total vote then it is declared the outright winner.

If Option 1 wins but takes less than 75% of the total vote then we will proceed with option 1 b which does introduce a significant random element purely to round 1.

If Option 2 wins but takes less than 75% of the total vote then we will proceed with option 2 b which introduces a significant seeded element purely to round 1.




Personally I find this a terrible way to go about things, those that favour one of the (b) options but would not be prepared to participate if one of the (a) options win are forced to wait until the last minute and change their vote should one option be running at over 75%, if too many decide to do that in the dying seconds then what the majority would be willing to accept might not win at all.

If you are supporting 1.b option, then you are much closer to 1.a option than any of 2 options and viceversa so the reason to suddenly change into from 1.b to 2 really does not exist. That is actually great job done by CDs, setting up voting options like that. Having format that 40% of clans strongly disagree (for example if there were only 1.a and 2.a options and some of them win with 60% votes) would be something which would damage this Cup because many would not participate. That is why it was needed to be bound mid ground (b options) in order to find format which would satisfy the most of clans. And what I like is way on how the mid ground was set up.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby IcePack on Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:59 am

If the B options win. It's still possible to get 75%
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby freakns on Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:44 pm

freakns: hey guys, we need to vote again
Otpisani Member 1: again? about what this time?
freakns: CCup format
OM 2: havent we vote about it just a week ago?
freakns: yes! we have!
OM 2: then why do we vote again?
freakns: well, they change the voting system
OM 3: reasonable, its not like first one was any good. and its not like they done anything right from first try
OM 2: yeah, i can see why they have done that. well, you know our vote, just tell them same thing again
freakns: well... thats kind of a problem. we are having different options and system this time.
OM 2: what do you mean?
freakns: well, we dont have straight forward like we did. its more like we have 1b which is pretty much same as 2b, then we have 1a and 2a, which are completely opposite.
OM 1: well, whats the option thats closest to what we had?
freakns: 1a
OM 1: then vote for it!
freakns: i cant...
OM 2: what do you mean you cant? have they finally ban you?
freakns: no, no, we can choose between 1 and 2, then CD will decide weather or not its going to be a or b option.
OM 1: well happy aprils fools to you too!
OM 2: good one freak, you almost got me this time!
OM 3: lol you bastard, i thought for a second you are serious!
freakns: guys, but i am... guys... guys???


so, there is my vote, and they can stick it where sun doesnt shine!

also, i will not vote again on any issue. not me, not any other member of Otpisani. im putting this here, not on CDF subforum cause i said i will not post there again after one of CDs took a liberty to insult one of the members(not me) only because that member disagreed with him.(it was worst possible thing, first insulting him, then tell him not to speak again, because he has the power and he isnt going to listen to him anymore... f-ing shit) and id like to say his words are worse then any josko and COF have exchanged, the same CDs who thought their language is inappropriate and now behaving in much worse manner.
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