THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby jetsetwilly on Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:52 am

I have made the small edit Josko.

Re voting choice, the ranking systems do exist but I'm not saying it's necessarily the best option here. We wiill look at the fairest system to use in this case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting_systems
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Keefie on Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:20 am

I disagree with Josko, the options should be presented clearly and concisely but with absolutely nothing added to influence the voters. Just the options plain and simple.
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Re: Conqueror's Cup 4

Postby IcePack on Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:11 am

josko.ri wrote:
IcePack wrote:This makes the vote more complicated, but if possible I would favor a vote where you dont just pick one option, but prioritize all of them.
Such as:
1st Pick = 4 Pts
2nd Pick = 3 pts
3rd pick = 2 pts
4th pick = 1 pt

This way, you can total all clans 4 picks prioritization. That way I can say "i pick option 1, but if i had to choose something else it would be Y, and then X, and then Z."

It would really show the preferances of the clans, instead of limiting to your top option.

This is bad idea. For example if you favor just one option, and 2 options are above other 2 in voting, then you will put #1 for option you favorise, and #4 to its the most strongest opposition option, even if you think that the most strongest opposition option is second the best. This suggestion allows more manipulation with voting.

Keep it simple, one clan put one vote for option they like the most. If no option gets more than 50% votes in first voting round, then we can make new voting round with 2 the most strongest option, while other 2 being eliminated.


This accomplishes everything in 1 vote. You already said if your vote method doesn't produce a winner you'd need another vote. Mine is simpler :)
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Re: Conqueror's Cup 4

Postby josko.ri on Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:43 am

IcePack wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
IcePack wrote:This makes the vote more complicated, but if possible I would favor a vote where you dont just pick one option, but prioritize all of them.
Such as:
1st Pick = 4 Pts
2nd Pick = 3 pts
3rd pick = 2 pts
4th pick = 1 pt

This way, you can total all clans 4 picks prioritization. That way I can say "i pick option 1, but if i had to choose something else it would be Y, and then X, and then Z."

It would really show the preferances of the clans, instead of limiting to your top option.

This is bad idea. For example if you favor just one option, and 2 options are above other 2 in voting, then you will put #1 for option you favorise, and #4 to its the most strongest opposition option, even if you think that the most strongest opposition option is second the best. This suggestion allows more manipulation with voting.

Keep it simple, one clan put one vote for option they like the most. If no option gets more than 50% votes in first voting round, then we can make new voting round with 2 the most strongest option, while other 2 being eliminated.


This accomplishes everything in 1 vote. You already said if your vote method doesn't produce a winner you'd need another vote. Mine is simpler :)

My system will for sure produce winner format which majority of is wants. Your system can at first hand allow more manipulation with votes, at second jand it is possible to produce a result that nobody likes (it is possible that solution which everyone put on second place at the end wins. At third, I know why you like this voting system, bbecause it is favorising your idea of no changing format. If someone likes one idea and no strong opinion about which idea dislikes, in majority cases that clan will put old system on second place, just because it has already worked while 3rd and 4th example never worked for real.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby eddie2 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:44 am

the only way your method would work is if votes are sent to clan mods first before posting then once they have all votes documented they post them all... i would also say that 2nd 3rd and 4th vote does not get taken into account unless there is a tie for first place then only the vote options that were tied get tallied up for total amount of points or else you could end up with a option no clan wanted.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby IcePack on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:16 am

I guess the CD's will decide. I'm not going to debate another 30 pages on things again. Since they want everything a vote, why not vote on the vote.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby josko.ri on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:21 am

IcePack wrote:I guess the CD's will decide. I'm not going to debate another 30 pages on things again. Since they want everything a vote, why not vote on the vote.

If there will be vote on a vote then i would propose third option, similar like your but points do not go 4,3,2,1 but rather go exponential 8,4,2,1. First choice of anyone need to have more weight than 4 Points compared to 3 points which is almost no difference.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby IcePack on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:24 am

josko.ri wrote:
IcePack wrote:I guess the CD's will decide. I'm not going to debate another 30 pages on things again. Since they want everything a vote, why not vote on the vote.

If there will be vote on a vote then i would propose third option, similar like your but points do not go 4,3,2,1 but rather go exponential 8,4,2,1. First choice of anyone need to have more weight than 4 Points compared to 3 points which is almost no difference.


thats fine with me. :o Did we just agree to something?
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Qwert on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:25 am

Also, one question for qwert for proposal 4a, as I am not sure if I understand his idea in total: Which is time of making draw for each round in your idea? Is it the whole draw for the whole tournament made at the beginning of the tournament (draw is made just once during the tournament), or draw for every round will be done before start of the round according to current rank at the date of every draw (draw is made before every round = 5 times during the tournament)?


well, its could made draw in advance for each round, or could make draw when each round are finished. Its depend what people like, if they want to have supprise,then draw will be after each finished round,, if they dont want supprise, then draw could be in advance.

One addition, what its written in scheme,,its that for top 8 , bracket could be transfered in normal bracket, and these mean that, you could have fixed bracket, where competition continue like normal bracket:
example
Top 16> [winner 1 vs winner 2] vs [winner 3 vs winner 4]

or total random--8 winners in one pot>random paired

you have many variations, and could add many interesting ending with these kind of bracket competition. Its up to people to decide what sound most interesting for play.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby jetsetwilly on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:26 am

IcePack wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
IcePack wrote:I guess the CD's will decide. I'm not going to debate another 30 pages on things again. Since they want everything a vote, why not vote on the vote.

If there will be vote on a vote then i would propose third option, similar like your but points do not go 4,3,2,1 but rather go exponential 8,4,2,1. First choice of anyone need to have more weight than 4 Points compared to 3 points which is almost no difference.


thats fine with me. :o Did we just agree to something?


lol the universe is going to implode !
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Crazyirishman on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:27 am

Maybe I'm just weird, but I think there's a bit of a difference between what people could hypothetically do, and what they would do in reality. I mean, I'm sure you could get a rogue who bands together with 5 other people to vote something they think 2nd best to be the worst but that doesn't seem very intuitive or natural.

But as long as we're riding along on the hypothetical voting train, if everybody did that the thing that was listed above, then ultimately the option least liked by all could be chosen as the most popular by total tally point and we'd all look like a bunch of retards for trying to be so clever by manipulating a voting system.

This is why I personally (just call me crazy) think that when people are presented with a vote, they will take the easy route and vote in accordance with how they actually fucking think, instead of constructing an intricate web of deception voting to propel their genius idea to the top.
Last edited by Crazyirishman on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby eddie2 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:37 am

Crazyirishman wrote:Maybe I'm just weird, but I think there's a bit of a difference between what people could hypothetically do, and what they would do in reality. I mean, I'm sure you could get a rogue who bands together with 5 other people to vote something they think 2nd best to be the worst but that doesn't seem very intuitive or natural.

But as long as we're riding along on the hypothetical voting train, if everybody did that the thing that was listed above, then ultimately the option least like by all could be chosen as the most popular by total tally point and we'd all look like a bunch of retards for trying to be so clever by manipulating a voting system.

This is why I personally (just call me crazy) think that when people are presented with a vote, they will take the easy route and vote in accordance with how they actually fucking think, instead of constructing an intricate web of deception voting to propel their genius idea to the top.


rofl plus 1.........
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby freakns on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:59 am

enough gibbering...
you lads posted 50 pages of talk without posting single picture of naked woman, and you expect us to read it?! no way jose...

put the vote into CDF, let us vote, and decide it. or let Dako run it to his own free will. either way, no more discussion.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby jetsetwilly on Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:10 am

freakns wrote:enough gibbering...
you lads posted 50 pages of talk without posting single picture of naked woman, and you expect us to read it?! no way jose...

put the vote into CDF, let us vote, and decide it. or let Dako run it to his own free will. either way, no more discussion.


The options are up, it's just a last chance to make sure they are all understood before we vote. You don't need to read all the rest!
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby eddie2 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:39 am

jetsetwilly wrote:
freakns wrote:enough gibbering...
you lads posted 50 pages of talk without posting single picture of naked woman, and you expect us to read it?! no way jose...

put the vote into CDF, let us vote, and decide it. or let Dako run it to his own free will. either way, no more discussion.


The options are up, it's just a last chance to make sure they are all understood before we vote. You don't need to read all the rest!


-1 lol of course this giving the events back to the clans the mods have been talking about really means do what we say or want to happen or it won't.. they choose what issues get voted on or what rules they want in place. the clan mods (via the use of cdf) are making a joke of us all, they say cdf is not like cla well i got to agree there. only due to the fact cla really didn't have authority to say do what i say or it wont happen like what the clan mods are doing.. as long as you agree with what they want and want to do they will be ok with you as soon as you disagree they will use the card we are in charge of the section so really what we say goes....
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby chapcrap on Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:08 am

Is there any reasonable kind of time frame for when this might start?
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby jghost7 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:58 am

If any random element were to be involved, then I would suggest that the top 16 clans according to the F400 be seeded accordingly, and then you can randomly draw their opponents. Play from there would be from the bracket.

I think this will also address the anomalies of good clans starting at the bottom, like Atlantis, if they get to join, are obviously stronger than their rank would indicate.


Here is an example of what it looks like before the draw:
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Once the drawing is held, then we would fill in the bracket and proceed like a normal bracket tournament.

It is simple and straightforward.

Thanks,

J
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby IcePack on Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:35 pm

jghost7 wrote:If any random element were to be involved, then I would suggest that the top 16 clans according to the F400 be seeded accordingly, and then you can randomly draw their opponents. Play from there would be from the bracket.

I think this will also address the anomalies of good clans starting at the bottom, like Atlantis, if they get to join, are obviously stronger than their rank would indicate.


Here is an example of what it looks like before the draw:
Image

Once the drawing is held, then we would fill in the bracket and proceed like a normal bracket tournament.

It is simple and straightforward.

Thanks,

J


This is pretty close to what i had pm'd jet about as well, IF we were to go a random route. This is kinda where i would prefer it head.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Qwert on Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:43 pm

these above its same like classic bracket-- low ranked clans could just quit to play,,because hes chances to get medals are close to zero. I realy dont understand what you have against that in round 1 clans from 17 to 32 play betwene? Why dont give hem equal opponents in first round? Why do you want to play against low ranked right in first round?
I can bet that any high ranked clan, will try to avoide to play against 32 ranked clan(except fall, or im wrong). I realy dont see any benefit to play in first round with easy opponent, but maybe you can see?
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby IcePack on Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:48 pm

qwert wrote:these above its same like classic bracket-- low ranked clans could just quit to play,,because hes chances to get medals are close to zero. I realy dont understand what you have against that in round 1 clans from 17 to 32 play betwene? Why dont give hem equal opponents in first round? Why do you want to play against low ranked right in first round?


It isn't the same, opponents are drawn at random for first round. I still prefer the classic bracket, not any random involved.
But, we debated this for 30 pages in the other thread. I'm not about to start again. The CD's will hold a vote, and everyone can move on. I certainly dont want to discuss the same things over and over as the other thread, for 30 pages. if you and josko want to add another 25 pages here, knock yourselves out.

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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby jetsetwilly on Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:23 pm

jghost7 wrote:If any random element were to be involved, then I would suggest that the top 16 clans according to the F400 be seeded accordingly, and then you can randomly draw their opponents. Play from there would be from the bracket.

I think this will also address the anomalies of good clans starting at the bottom, like Atlantis, if they get to join, are obviously stronger than their rank would indicate.


Here is an example of what it looks like before the draw:
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Once the drawing is held, then we would fill in the bracket and proceed like a normal bracket tournament.

It is simple and straightforward.

Thanks,

J


Rather than put in a 5th option we can change option 3 to look like this. I don't think option 3 as it currently stands has had a huge deal of support and this option is probably more of a half way house between 1 and 2. Two of you have suggested it so I'm happy to make that final change. We would love to include every variation but the list can only be so long to be practical.
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Re: Draw and Seeding system

Postby jghost7 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:06 pm

jetsetwilly wrote:...

1.Fixed bracket system

Top clans are kept apart for as long as possible using the F400 and you know who are likely to meet as the cup progresses.

show: Option 1 - CC3 Example



2. An entirely random draw for every round.

For round 1 the 32 teams are pulled from a hat at random
For round 2 the 16 remaining teams are pulled from a hat at random.
etc.

top clans could meet each other in an early round and we might see some big name casualties.

show: Option 2


3. Seed the top 16 to play random opponents in round 1 then proceed with a bracket.

The top 16 clans according to the F400 be seeded accordingly, and then you can randomly draw their opponents. Play from there would be from the bracket.
show: Option 3

4. Alternative system

Clans 1-8 get a bye in Rounds 1 and 2 and join from Round 3
Clans 9-16 get a bye in Round 2 and join in Round 2

There are 2 similar alternatives within option 4 but for the purposes of the initial discussion we propose to keep them as a single option. If this option proves to be the winner then we could determine which of the 2 to go for.

Option 4a uses a random method of pairing the clans. 4b uses a bracket system.

4a:

R1: Clans ranked 17-24 are randomly paired with the clans ranked 25-32
R2: Clans ranked 9-16 are randomly paired with the winners from R1
R3 Clans ranked 1-8 clans are randomly paired with the winers from R2
QF: Remainng clans ranked 1-4 are randomly paired with those ranked 4-8
SF: Remaining clans ranked 1-2 are randomly paried with those ranked 3-4

4b:

R1: Clans ranked 17-24 are paired with the clans ranked 25-32 using the system 17v32; 18v31 ... 24v25
R2: Clans ranked 9-16 are paired with the 8 winners from R1. 9v(24v25); 10v(23v26) ... 16v(17v32)
R3 Clans ranked 1-8 clans are paired with the winners from R2. 1-8. 1v[16v(17v32)]; 2v[15v(18v31)] ... 8v[9v(24v25)]
QF: Remaining 8 clans - 1v8, 2v7, 3v6, 4v5 (or winners of their previous matches)
SF: Remaining 4 clans - 1v4, 2v3 (or winners of their previous matches)



show: Option 4a





As with 4, can 1 and 3 be combined to 1a and 1b due to their similar structure. I am sure that they are similarly matched in content. I think the following will more accurately produce the results you desire:

1.Seeded bracket system


There are two similar options within option 1 but for the purposes of the initial discussion we propose to keep them as a single option. If this option proves to be the winner then we could determine which of the 2 to go for.

Option 1a uses a strict seeding method for the entire bracket to pair the clans.
Option 1b uses seeding for the top half of the bracket to pair the clans with a randomly drawn opponent.



show: Option 1a - Seed the entire bracket



show: Option 1b - Seed the top 16 to play random opponents in round 1



2. An entirely random draw for every round.

For round 1 the 32 teams are pulled from a hat at random
For round 2 the 16 remaining teams are pulled from a hat at random.
etc.

top clans could meet each other in an early round and we might see some big name casualties.

show: Option 2



3. Alternative system

Clans 1-8 get a bye in Rounds 1 and 2 and join from Round 3
Clans 9-16 get a bye in Round 2 and join in Round 2

There are 2 similar alternatives within option 3 but for the purposes of the initial discussion we propose to keep them as a single option. If this option proves to be the winner then we could determine which of the 2 to go for.

Option 3a uses a random method of pairing the clans. 3b uses a bracket system.

3a:

R1: Clans ranked 17-24 are randomly paired with the clans ranked 25-32
R2: Clans ranked 9-16 are randomly paired with the winners from R1
R3 Clans ranked 1-8 clans are randomly paired with the winers from R2
QF: Remainng clans ranked 1-4 are randomly paired with those ranked 4-8
SF: Remaining clans ranked 1-2 are randomly paried with those ranked 3-4

3b:

R1: Clans ranked 17-24 are paired with the clans ranked 25-32 using the system 17v32; 18v31 ... 24v25
R2: Clans ranked 9-16 are paired with the 8 winners from R1. 9v(24v25); 10v(23v26) ... 16v(17v32)
R3 Clans ranked 1-8 clans are paired with the winners from R2. 1-8. 1v[16v(17v32)]; 2v[15v(18v31)] ... 8v[9v(24v25)]
QF: Remaining 8 clans - 1v8, 2v7, 3v6, 4v5 (or winners of their previous matches)
SF: Remaining 4 clans - 1v4, 2v3 (or winners of their previous matches)



show: Option 3a



I truly think this would be the best way to present this.

Thanks,

J
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby jetsetwilly on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:40 am

I think this is a very sensible suggestion to simplify the voting. This is the final change we have time to make ahead of the vote tomorrow.

I will pm all the reps again to ensure they have seen the change. In the event that any clan has begun to run an internal vote already they can add the votes for the previous 1 and 3 together.

1.Seeded bracket system


There are two similar options within option 1 but for the purposes of the initial discussion we propose to keep them as a single option. If this option proves to be the winner then we could determine which of the 2 to go for.

Option 1a uses a strict seeding method for the entire bracket to pair the clans.
Option 1b uses seeding for the top half of the bracket to pair the clans with a randomly drawn opponent.



show: Option 1a - Seed the entire bracket



show: Option 1b - Seed the top 16 to play random opponents in round 1



2. An entirely random draw for every round.

For round 1 the 32 teams are pulled from a hat at random
For round 2 the 16 remaining teams are pulled from a hat at random.
etc.

top clans could meet each other in an early round and we might see some big name casualties.

show: Option 2



3. Alternative system

Clans 1-8 get a bye in Rounds 1 and 2 and join from Round 3
Clans 9-16 get a bye in Round 2 and join in Round 2

There are 2 similar alternatives within option 3 but for the purposes of the initial discussion we propose to keep them as a single option. If this option proves to be the winner then we could determine which of the 2 to go for.

Option 3a uses a random method of pairing the clans. 3b uses a bracket system.

3a:

R1: Clans ranked 17-24 are randomly paired with the clans ranked 25-32
R2: Clans ranked 9-16 are randomly paired with the winners from R1
R3 Clans ranked 1-8 clans are randomly paired with the winers from R2
QF: Remainng clans ranked 1-4 are randomly paired with those ranked 4-8
SF: Remaining clans ranked 1-2 are randomly paried with those ranked 3-4

3b:

R1: Clans ranked 17-24 are paired with the clans ranked 25-32 using the system 17v32; 18v31 ... 24v25
R2: Clans ranked 9-16 are paired with the 8 winners from R1. 9v(24v25); 10v(23v26) ... 16v(17v32)
R3 Clans ranked 1-8 clans are paired with the winners from R2. 1-8. 1v[16v(17v32)]; 2v[15v(18v31)] ... 8v[9v(24v25)]
QF: Remaining 8 clans - 1v8, 2v7, 3v6, 4v5 (or winners of their previous matches)
SF: Remaining 4 clans - 1v4, 2v3 (or winners of their previous matches)



show: Option 3a
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby BGtheBrain on Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:40 am

TNC votes #2
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Re: THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

Postby Keefie on Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:59 am

Keep your powder dry BG, this isn't the vote thread ;)
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