CCup4 Comment Thread

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CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby chemefreak on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:55 am

Enjoy.
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby chemefreak on Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:00 pm

Doc_Brown wrote:3 Questions (for now :) ):
1) What is the projected start date? Will CC4 delay the start until the CC3 finals are completed?
2) What flexibility do the clans have to negotiate changes to the existing rules, and which rules can be negotiated? e.g. Can the clans negotiate a different timing out rule?
3) Dako had included a rule accounting for site issues interfering with games: The game would be recreated if both clans agreed, otherwise the game would continue as-is. Can this rule, or some variation of it, be included?
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby chemefreak on Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:05 pm

crispybits wrote:Yep - so no exceptions to entry requirements for CDF or competitions that require CDF

I'm sure you guys and Atlantis could organise a speed game war if you wanted in the next couple of days - meet the same conditions as everyone else has to and you don't get any comments aimed your way :-P
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby chemefreak on Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:08 pm

friendly1 wrote:The clans were all held hostage to play in CCup4 and forced to join the CDF based on a unilateral decision by the CD's. (even though they changed it to be eligible to join the CDF at a later time)

There is going to be some very pissed off people if this is not upheld, and I will be one of them. When you impose requirements, you had damn well better stand behind them if you expect any credibility whatsoever.

Personally, I expect some form of an exception to be introduced so the clans can play (and I'd actually prefer that, all clans should have access to the CCup) but in doing so the CDF becomes that which the CD's have so vocally protested it is not.
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:10 pm

chemefreak wrote:
Doc_Brown wrote:3 Questions (for now :) ):
1) What is the projected start date? Will CC4 delay the start until the CC3 finals are completed?
2) What flexibility do the clans have to negotiate changes to the existing rules, and which rules can be negotiated? e.g. Can the clans negotiate a different timing out rule?
3) Dako had included a rule accounting for site issues interfering with games: The game would be recreated if both clans agreed, otherwise the game would continue as-is. Can this rule, or some variation of it, be included?



1. Projected start date is 2 weeks from now. We will likely not delay to let the finals finish. We expect more than 32 clans to sign up, so you should have some time before your first match starts should you join.

2. Most rules are pretty set, but clans always have some room to wiggle a bit if both clans agree. The timing out rule could be negotiated, but I am not sure you will find many willing to do so.

3. That rule will be added in. It was a pure oversight by me. I hope clans would be reasonable and agree to play a remake if needed.
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:14 pm

chemefreak wrote:
crispybits wrote:Yep - so no exceptions to entry requirements for CDF or competitions that require CDF

I'm sure you guys and Atlantis could organise a speed game war if you wanted in the next couple of days - meet the same conditions as everyone else has to and you don't get any comments aimed your way :-P



CDF was created so all clans could have a place to meet and talk over issues. We put those official guidelines to keep out fly by night clans, and not those clans who are well versed already.
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:17 pm

chemefreak wrote:
friendly1 wrote:The clans were all held hostage to play in CCup4 and forced to join the CDF based on a unilateral decision by the CD's. (even though they changed it to be eligible to join the CDF at a later time)

There is going to be some very pissed off people if this is not upheld, and I will be one of them. When you impose requirements, you had damn well better stand behind them if you expect any credibility whatsoever.

Personally, I expect some form of an exception to be introduced so the clans can play (and I'd actually prefer that, all clans should have access to the CCup) but in doing so the CDF becomes that which the CD's have so vocally protested it is not.



Everybody will be in CDF who plays. These new clans like VVV, Atlantis and AOC/Empire Merge will be in there, so they can surely play. The idea of being in CDF is so they do not miss anything needed.
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby Doc_Brown on Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:53 pm

Bruceswar wrote:
chemefreak wrote:
Doc_Brown wrote:3 Questions (for now :) ):
1) What is the projected start date? Will CC4 delay the start until the CC3 finals are completed?
2) What flexibility do the clans have to negotiate changes to the existing rules, and which rules can be negotiated? e.g. Can the clans negotiate a different timing out rule?
3) Dako had included a rule accounting for site issues interfering with games: The game would be recreated if both clans agreed, otherwise the game would continue as-is. Can this rule, or some variation of it, be included?



1. Projected start date is 2 weeks from now. We will likely not delay to let the finals finish. We expect more than 32 clans to sign up, so you should have some time before your first match starts should you join.

2. Most rules are pretty set, but clans always have some room to wiggle a bit if both clans agree. The timing out rule could be negotiated, but I am not sure you will find many willing to do so.

3. That rule will be added in. It was a pure oversight by me. I hope clans would be reasonable and agree to play a remake if needed.


Thanks for the response. On point 2, I don't know TOFU's stance on it and was asking more as a theoretical question given some objections that had been raised in earlier CC4 discussions. On point 3: Thanks, and I agree. From what I've seen in the past, games whose outcome was clearly changed by a site bug have been happily recreated by both clans(i.e. when very even games were clearly decided by the bug), and I'm optimistic that that will continue to be the case.

For the start date, what happens if fewer than 33 clans sign up? Maybe this doesn't need answering until we get farther along. Also, the CC3 finals match isn't scheduled to start for another week or so, and it has 60 games. From CC3, the semifinals took about 2.5 months to complete, while the play-in round took just over 1 month. TOFU is a small clan, and we are already engaged in RL and CL5 in addition to CC3. If there is a strong likelihood that we will have to begin our CC4 engagements while still engaged in the CC3 finals, it's going to play into our decision about whether or not to participate. This is why CoF has proposed on a couple of occasions giving a bye strictly to the clans engaged in the CC3 finals.


Edited for clarity.
Last edited by Doc_Brown on Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby chapcrap on Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:26 pm

So, we're breaking the rules for Atlantis and the Empire/AOC merger and allowing them in, even though they don't qualify?
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby BGtheBrain on Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:30 pm

The rule was being waived for VVV and Atlantis pre-empire/aoc merger

I think "experienced" new clans should be allowed access to the event
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby eddie2 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:15 pm

BGtheBrain wrote:The rule was being waived for VVV and Atlantis pre-empire/aoc merger

I think "experienced" new clans should be allowed access to the event


no there should not because a precedent has been set in previous events bg...

1) time changed to aka were not allowed entry to ccup3.... admittedly we did not try to sign up because we had not completed our first war via the pack...
2)the pack were not allowed to join ccup3 due to 6 active games for there 2nd war and did not meet the requirements.

there have been others but these 2 spring to mind because i was involved in the discussions about all of these and even asked chuuuck nicely to let the pack play because they had not completed there 2nd challenge due to me having real life issues and we had not completed our challenge on time.

also what you have to consider is that clan mods have made it clear that clans must meet the requirements for clan buddy group.... Was it not voted or talked about in there that any clan wanting to join must of completed 1 war and been active for 1 month. well i am sorry but this is another kick in the teeth where they are saying stuff you clan world we will do what we want.

on the issue of aoc empire they have decided to start a new clan. well where is there clan creation thread we seen some players already in this thread..[url]
viewtopic.php?f=438&t=188490[/url]

saying they new nothing about this...
saying they were going to join another clan...

so will this new group actually be a merge of all players ??????
will it have the same leadership ???????
will they get along together as a newly formed clan or will they go there separate ways in the next month or two..

these are things that will not be known before they complete a war they might argue over simple things like who plays what maps (our team was better than your team and visa versa... i want this home map for former aoc players no our empire players are better on that map.)
they have to prove themselves as a single clan before signing them up to a event like this.

they have not even made a public sign up thread or are even a active clan yet they do not have a clan page or anything so they are not even a clan yet but they have been told they can join. This i am afraid is a contradiction to the whole way of going about the clan stuff.... And once again shows how this new clan moderation team are saying stuff you lot lets do what we want...
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby eddie2 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:27 pm

sorry for double post but

ahh whats the point leave them to do what ever they want and carry on making total fools of us all... i really think when it comes to employing volunteers for this section in future they make a rule that they must not be a member of any clan, So they can look at all issues on a non biased way.
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby Lindax on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:33 pm

eddie2 wrote:i really think when it comes to employing volunteers for this section in future they make a rule that they must not be a member of any clan.


For once I think you uttered a not-so-unreasonable thought.
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby niMic on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:35 pm

Having people who aren't in clans running the clan side of CC would not be a very good idea. Some, few, might be capable of it, but most wouldn't have the first idea what the clans need or want
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby IcePack on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:51 pm

BGtheBrain wrote:The rule was being waived for VVV and Atlantis pre-empire/aoc merger

I think "experienced" new clans should be allowed access to the event


Just going to point out that when KOA started (with some in clan having past clan experience) we missed CC2 start and had to wait until CC3....
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
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12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby crispybits on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:56 pm

So in summary this is another example of a small group making up the rules to suit a minority of people as we go along rather than sticking to what the rules actually say - noted.
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby eddie2 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:58 pm

IcePack wrote:
BGtheBrain wrote:The rule was being waived for VVV and Atlantis pre-empire/aoc merger

I think "experienced" new clans should be allowed access to the event


Just going to point out that when KOA started (with some in clan having past clan experience) we missed CC2 start and had to wait until CC3....


yep i am going to correct my statement before the pack and aka were in this same event not ccup3
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby Vid_FISO on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:58 pm

crispybits wrote:So in summary this is another example of a small group making up the rules to suit a minority of people as we go along rather than sticking to what the rules actually say - noted.


Fact of life, it's not what you know, it's who you know :)
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby greenoaks on Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:52 pm

niMic wrote:Having people who aren't in clans running the clan side of CC would not be a very good idea. Some, few, might be capable of it, but most wouldn't have the first idea what the clans need or want

would i be an acceptable choice for running tournaments ?
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby chemefreak on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:55 pm

Vid_FISO wrote:
crispybits wrote:So in summary this is another example of a small group making up the rules to suit a minority of people as we go along rather than sticking to what the rules actually say - noted.


Fact of life, it's not what you know, it's who you know :)


I would say that if Vid_FISO were running a new clan I would probably vote to allow it since he has experience running wars. I think the spirit of the rule is to keep 10 random CCers who have never even been in a clan war, starting a clan, joining the Cup and going through the growing pains as the rest of us are waiting for them to catch up! I wish everyone weren't so damn jaded in this section.
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby IcePack on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:58 pm

chemefreak wrote:
Vid_FISO wrote:
crispybits wrote:So in summary this is another example of a small group making up the rules to suit a minority of people as we go along rather than sticking to what the rules actually say - noted.


Fact of life, it's not what you know, it's who you know :)


I would say that if Vid_FISO were running a new clan I would probably vote to allow it since he has experience running wars. I think the spirit of the rule is to keep 10 random CCers who have never even been in a clan war, starting a clan, joining the Cup and going through the growing pains as the rest of us are waiting for them to catch up! I wish everyone weren't so damn jaded in this section.


3 clans (all with various clan experience) were kept out of CC2 for the exact same things. We literally had to wait a year because of that.
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby IcePack on Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:50 pm

IcePack wrote:
chemefreak wrote:
Vid_FISO wrote:
crispybits wrote:So in summary this is another example of a small group making up the rules to suit a minority of people as we go along rather than sticking to what the rules actually say - noted.


Fact of life, it's not what you know, it's who you know :)


I would say that if Vid_FISO were running a new clan I would probably vote to allow it since he has experience running wars. I think the spirit of the rule is to keep 10 random CCers who have never even been in a clan war, starting a clan, joining the Cup and going through the growing pains as the rest of us are waiting for them to catch up! I wish everyone weren't so damn jaded in this section.


3 clans (all with various clan experience) were kept out of CC2 for the exact same things. We literally had to wait a year because of that.


Actually, since we are on the subject. AKA, KOA, PACK, and Wild Geese were all denied entry into CC2. And now the CD's seem to be keen to let them all in without experience. Here is a quote from our very own Bruceswar on the subject, in the CC2 thread:

Bruceswar wrote:
maasman wrote:I completely understand the consistency issues, but new clans also are definitely not in the same position as wild geese. To me that trumps the consistency of the old rule and sets up consistency for a new one.



KORT, TOFU, Wild Geese(to a lesser extent) We all had past clan members, and such. We all had to wait. They can also.


viewtopic.php?f=442&t=136588&start=210#p3013369
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby chemefreak on Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:54 pm

Are you criticizing us for getting it right this time around Icepack?
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby IcePack on Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:03 pm

chemefreak wrote:Are you criticizing us for getting it right this time around Icepack?


I think its ironic now that its getting "fixed" when a clan that has a vested interest in getting it "fixed" has two CD's amongst it.

I have no problem with either of the clans getting in, i just find it rather ironic its getting fixed now after half a dozen other clans (that i found, maybe more) have been rejected in the past.
Last edited by IcePack on Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: CCup4 Question Thread

Postby chemefreak on Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:05 pm

IcePack wrote:
chemefreak wrote:Are you criticizing us for getting it right this time around Icepack?


I think its ironic now that its getting "fixed" when a clan that has a vested interest in getting it "fixed" has two CD's amongst it.


Actually, I think the point you are proving is that you will never be happy with anything anyone does. So we should all just hope you disappear again. At the very least, everyone should definitely stop paying attention to you.
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