CCup4 Comment Thread

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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby IcePack on Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:31 pm

Bruceswar wrote:Rewards

The Conquerors Cup is now an Official CC Clan Event and as such the CD's have been able to secure premium prizes to award to the winning clan, \:D/ 1 month per eligible clan member and we will also be awarding overall Medals to 1st, 2nd and 3rd place Clans.


Just curious, how will the overall 3rd place match medals be issued when generally speaking, there isn't a match determining third? Especially if these events are going to overlap, i seriously doubt 3rd and 4th are going to square off at the same time as the finals if the next one is about to start...
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby shoop76 on Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:06 pm

Guess there is a reason this is called CCup4 comment thread and not CCup4 answer thread.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby Bruceswar on Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:25 pm

IcePack wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:Rewards

The Conquerors Cup is now an Official CC Clan Event and as such the CD's have been able to secure premium prizes to award to the winning clan, \:D/ 1 month per eligible clan member and we will also be awarding overall Medals to 1st, 2nd and 3rd place Clans.


Just curious, how will the overall 3rd place match medals be issued when generally speaking, there isn't a match determining third? Especially if these events are going to overlap, i seriously doubt 3rd and 4th are going to square off at the same time as the finals if the next one is about to start...



For a 3rd place medal to be issued, that would mean either the match gets played or one clan does not want to play and the other does. We cannot force clans to play the match but hope they would play it.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby josko.ri on Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:58 am

qwert wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:Couldn't AoE keep the place of AoC in CL5? Can't see why not tbh. If the F400 keeps you on the ranking in AoC's place, you enter CC4 under the pretext of being a merged clan rather than a new clan, then it follows that you could continue in CL5 in AoC's group. Apply the same rule across the board and then there's no contradiction.



If AOC move to play like EMPire players, and vice verse, then only one clan will be disbanded and not play in CL5, and other will continue to play. But consider that many games are ongoing, best possible situation for one clan to move to other are between two phases, because they will clean all ongoing games,and will start normal competition in Second phase.
Unfortunatly they decide to form Clan with equal right 50% Empire-50% AOc, so they want to be legal successor of bout clans, and these its not possibile to implement in CL5 who all ready start.

Situation are diferent in CC4, because they will start from begining, so not cause any rule brakes.
I realy dont understand why so long discussion abouth these? For me these its all clear and not complicated.

It was very possible to implement in CL5, if only you were not ignorant to multiple suggestions about how it is possible. like this suggestion: viewtopic.php?f=441&t=185753&start=135#p4125299

As you say, they are 50%Emp 50%AoC rights, so if for example both of them got a chance to finish Phase 1 and both got placed as #2, then it is 50%*2 + 50%*2 = 2, or if one clan was ranked #1 and other clan #2 then it is 50%*1 + 50%*2 = 1,5 which both qualify them for Division1, if for example one clan gets #2 and another gets #3 position then it is 50%*2 + 50%*3 = 2,5 which would put them into Division 2.

There were much better solutions, but your ignoring suggestions, and the fact that you were not ready to discuss led to this solution, which is the worst possible in my opinion. I know it is the easiest hide responsibility under the carpet and just say "nothing better could be done" but people who have idea how it could be done better will not buy that escaping from responsibility from the decision made.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby eddie2 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:24 am

josko.ri wrote:
qwert wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:Couldn't AoE keep the place of AoC in CL5? Can't see why not tbh. If the F400 keeps you on the ranking in AoC's place, you enter CC4 under the pretext of being a merged clan rather than a new clan, then it follows that you could continue in CL5 in AoC's group. Apply the same rule across the board and then there's no contradiction.



If AOC move to play like EMPire players, and vice verse, then only one clan will be disbanded and not play in CL5, and other will continue to play. But consider that many games are ongoing, best possible situation for one clan to move to other are between two phases, because they will clean all ongoing games,and will start normal competition in Second phase.
Unfortunatly they decide to form Clan with equal right 50% Empire-50% AOc, so they want to be legal successor of bout clans, and these its not possibile to implement in CL5 who all ready start.

Situation are diferent in CC4, because they will start from begining, so not cause any rule brakes.
I realy dont understand why so long discussion abouth these? For me these its all clear and not complicated.

It was very possible to implement in CL5, if only you were not ignorant to multiple suggestions about how it is possible. like this suggestion: viewtopic.php?f=441&t=185753&start=135#p4125299

As you say, they are 50%Emp 50%AoC rights, so if for example both of them got a chance to finish Phase 1 and both got placed as #2, then it is 50%*2 + 50%*2 = 2, or if one clan was ranked #1 and other clan #2 then it is 50%*1 + 50%*2 = 1,5 which both qualify them for Division1, if for example one clan gets #2 and another gets #3 position then it is 50%*2 + 50%*3 = 2,5 which would put them into Division 2.

There were much better solutions, but your ignoring suggestions, and the fact that you were not ready to discuss led to this solution, which is the worst possible in my opinion. I know it is the easiest hide responsibility under the carpet and just say "nothing better could be done" but people who have idea how it could be done better will not buy that escaping from responsibility from the decision made.


qwert was not ignorant in his choice also he is not ignoring suggestions. he has openly said if the 2 clans merge into either of the active clans that clan could continue. but they have not they have proven they cannot merge the 2 clans as in the meaning of merge. they have chosen to start a new clan which makes them ineligible for that event. qwert has done exactly what he should of done and removed them from the event. this is what should of happened with this event as well and not change the sign up rules to accommodate them.if this was a lower ranked clan doing this it would not of even been discussed and the rule would not of been changed. this proving that bruce is giving higher ranked clans more options than lower ranked ones.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby eddie2 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:33 am

sorry for double post.

Can my tournament have byes?

Yes, although byes are not encouraged. The issue is primarily one of fairness. A clan with a bye will typically play in fewer games in order to win a clan tournament. Is this fair to the other clans in the tournament? Will the winning clan, if they had an early bye, qualify for medals? These things need to be considered when adding byes to your tournament. However, in certain instances, byes are unavoidable. Again, consulting with a Clan Director will help you make this decision and avoid potential pitfalls.


this is very interesting from the link you posted in the event i want to run....

can i ask some questions about this part please.

the clan department does not encourage byes. But in effect are you not giving byes to higher ranked clans in this event.?

since you have stated this event is for 32 clans should the places not be given on a first come first serve bases not a play in round meaning some clan have to play 41 more games than others and tourneyments in there section are on first come first serve ?
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby josko.ri on Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:45 am

eddie2 wrote:qwert was not ignorant in his choice also he is not ignoring suggestions. he has openly said if the 2 clans merge into either of the active clans that clan could continue.

... and therefore he WAS ignorant. Because there were solutions presented to him about how 2 clans can merge and still continue competition in the fair way. Ignoring the solutions and just saying "nothing can be done better" means he was ignorant to suggestions which said how it can be done better.

eddie2 wrote:this proving that bruce is giving higher ranked clans more options than lower ranked ones.

Which is proving that? Is the fact that EMP/AoC was banned from CL5 proving that Bruce is favorising them over low ranked clans? Tell me which more options/privileges EMP/AoC had in CL5 case that other clans would not have in their position? You speak total nonsenses eddie, like always.

So far zero clans signed up for your no-name event, that only proves how much people respect you and your opinion/work, even with 125$ dollars "call" for participation =D>
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby Leehar on Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:46 am

eddie2 wrote:sorry for double post.

Can my tournament have byes?

Yes, although byes are not encouraged. The issue is primarily one of fairness. A clan with a bye will typically play in fewer games in order to win a clan tournament. Is this fair to the other clans in the tournament? Will the winning clan, if they had an early bye, qualify for medals? These things need to be considered when adding byes to your tournament. However, in certain instances, byes are unavoidable. Again, consulting with a Clan Director will help you make this decision and avoid potential pitfalls.


this is very interesting from the link you posted in the event i want to run....

can i ask some questions about this part please.

the clan department does not encourage byes. But in effect are you not giving byes to higher ranked clans in this event.?

since you have stated this event is for 32 clans should the places not be given on a first come first serve bases not a play in round meaning some clan have to play 41 more games than others and tourneyments in there section are on first come first serve ?

Yup, in certain instances, byes are unavoidable so we are still remaining consistent with past precedence in both earlier CCups as well as ACC/NC etc although they all have different ways of allocating bye's. However, these are all factors that do need to be considered when running clan tournaments.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby IcePack on Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:58 am

Bruceswar wrote:
IcePack wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:Rewards

The Conquerors Cup is now an Official CC Clan Event and as such the CD's have been able to secure premium prizes to award to the winning clan, \:D/ 1 month per eligible clan member and we will also be awarding overall Medals to 1st, 2nd and 3rd place Clans.


Just curious, how will the overall 3rd place match medals be issued when generally speaking, there isn't a match determining third? Especially if these events are going to overlap, i seriously doubt 3rd and 4th are going to square off at the same time as the finals if the next one is about to start...



For a 3rd place medal to be issued, that would mean either the match gets played or one clan does not want to play and the other does. We cannot force clans to play the match but hope they would play it.


So from what I gather on these posts there is a situation in which 3rd place medals will be issued when zero games are actually played?!?
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby swimmerdude99 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:02 am

eddie2 wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
qwert wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:Couldn't AoE keep the place of AoC in CL5? Can't see why not tbh. If the F400 keeps you on the ranking in AoC's place, you enter CC4 under the pretext of being a merged clan rather than a new clan, then it follows that you could continue in CL5 in AoC's group. Apply the same rule across the board and then there's no contradiction.



If AOC move to play like EMPire players, and vice verse, then only one clan will be disbanded and not play in CL5, and other will continue to play. But consider that many games are ongoing, best possible situation for one clan to move to other are between two phases, because they will clean all ongoing games,and will start normal competition in Second phase.
Unfortunatly they decide to form Clan with equal right 50% Empire-50% AOc, so they want to be legal successor of bout clans, and these its not possibile to implement in CL5 who all ready start.

Situation are diferent in CC4, because they will start from begining, so not cause any rule brakes.
I realy dont understand why so long discussion abouth these? For me these its all clear and not complicated.

It was very possible to implement in CL5, if only you were not ignorant to multiple suggestions about how it is possible. like this suggestion: viewtopic.php?f=441&t=185753&start=135#p4125299

As you say, they are 50%Emp 50%AoC rights, so if for example both of them got a chance to finish Phase 1 and both got placed as #2, then it is 50%*2 + 50%*2 = 2, or if one clan was ranked #1 and other clan #2 then it is 50%*1 + 50%*2 = 1,5 which both qualify them for Division1, if for example one clan gets #2 and another gets #3 position then it is 50%*2 + 50%*3 = 2,5 which would put them into Division 2.

There were much better solutions, but your ignoring suggestions, and the fact that you were not ready to discuss led to this solution, which is the worst possible in my opinion. I know it is the easiest hide responsibility under the carpet and just say "nothing better could be done" but people who have idea how it could be done better will not buy that escaping from responsibility from the decision made.


qwert was not ignorant in his choice also he is not ignoring suggestions. he has openly said if the 2 clans merge into either of the active clans that clan could continue. but they have not they have proven they cannot merge the 2 clans as in the meaning of merge. they have chosen to start a new clan which makes them ineligible for that event. qwert has done exactly what he should of done and removed them from the event. this is what should of happened with this event as well and not change the sign up rules to accommodate them.if this was a lower ranked clan doing this it would not of even been discussed and the rule would not of been changed. this proving that bruce is giving higher ranked clans more options than lower ranked ones.

And I'm glad this was brought up. Because that proves to anyone that is saying "they have proven they can't continue by CL5" is showed to be totally wrong. It was not our choice to not continue if the organizer wasn't willing to follow the equation that Josko showed would have and could have worked. It was a decision that was made.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby Chariot of Fire on Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:07 am

Josko's post is quite correct.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby Qwert on Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:29 am

Rules are clear and same for all. and these its CCup4 discusion topic ,so no more post from me who are not relevant to this discusion.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby josko.ri on Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:16 am

qwert wrote:Rules are clear and same for all. and these its CCup4 discusion topic ,so no more post from me who are not relevant to this discusion.

This discussion was also presented in relevant CL5 thread but there, also like here, you escaped from taking responsibility for your decision. It is not problem where the issue happens, in CL5 or CC4 thread, problem is wherever it happens you escape from responsibility for your own decision.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby eddie2 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:59 pm

josko.ri wrote:
qwert wrote:Rules are clear and same for all. and these its CCup4 discusion topic ,so no more post from me who are not relevant to this discusion.

This discussion was also presented in relevant CL5 thread but there, also like here, you escaped from taking responsibility for your decision. It is not problem where the issue happens, in CL5 or CC4 thread, problem is wherever it happens you escape from responsibility for your own decision.


wtf you going on about josko..

qwert followed the 1 complete challenge 1 month active rule for his event which i hate to say it but the clan mods enforced this rule by telling him that clans must be members of cdf.. this was the rule to join cdf...

So there was a couple of clans who did not qualify for cl5 atlantis vvv are 2 of them...

so qwert gave aoc empire a chance to merge together under one of there previous clans letting them continue because if he allows them to continue with a new clan then the whole tourney will be under threat of abuse because he did not allow them other clans to take part. So he stuck to the rules of the event the clan mods made him put in...

please also remember one of the main reasons they took this event of of dako was because, he would not follow 2 of there demands..

timing out rule.(he put clans could discuss if they wanted it)
must be members of cdf. (he put eligible)

then in this event they added the same rule but as soon as aoc empire started a new clan they changed the rule of the event (which was one of the things they removed dako from running it for.)

also take into account that aoc empire have also posted that they are talking about joining the newcomers cup. So they want to be classed as a new clan to join that event. but classed as a old clan to join this one take your finger out josko and look at what is happening properly because to me it is looking like they want the best of both worlds.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby Qwert on Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:29 pm

Josko, i dont understand why you dont open new topic, related on these case, and then you can discused with many people abouth these. CL5 are totaly diferent competition then CC4, so its not ok, to discuse of CL5 in CC4 topic.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby jj3044 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:56 pm

eddie2 wrote:also take into account that aoc empire have also posted that they are talking about joining the newcomers cup. So they want to be classed as a new clan to join that event. but classed as a old clan to join this one take your finger out josko and look at what is happening properly because to me it is looking like they want the best of both worlds.

We are planning on playing in the CC4, not the NC...

NC would only have been applicable if we were denied entrance in CC4 and if the powers at be saw this as a "new" clan, instead of a merge, which is what we see it as. So it is a moot point...
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby shoop76 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:11 pm

I see signups are supposed to end on the 19th. What happens if EMPIRE still has an ongoing war?
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby jj3044 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:31 pm

shoop76 wrote:I see signups are supposed to end on the 19th. What happens if EMPIRE still has an ongoing war?

My understanding is that the particular players who still have (old) clan games ongoing will not be able to play until those are finished. It shouldn't be an issue with the merged clan as there will still be plenty of players that do not have any active clan games (those from AOC) to start off. Plus, I would imagine there will be a play-in round ... so it shouldn't matter anyway.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby shoop76 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:34 pm

jj3044 wrote:
shoop76 wrote:I see signups are supposed to end on the 19th. What happens if EMPIRE still has an ongoing war?

My understanding is that the particular players who still have (old) clan games ongoing will not be able to play until those are finished. It shouldn't be an issue with the merged clan as there will still be plenty of players that do not have any active clan games (those from AOC) to start off. Plus, I would imagine there will be a play-in round ... so it shouldn't matter anyway.


Ok thanks for answering the question. Good luck in CC4 and with the new clan.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby eddie2 on Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:31 am

jj3044 wrote:
eddie2 wrote:also take into account that aoc empire have also posted that they are talking about joining the newcomers cup. So they want to be classed as a new clan to join that event. but classed as a old clan to join this one take your finger out josko and look at what is happening properly because to me it is looking like they want the best of both worlds.

We are planning on playing in the CC4, not the NC...

NC would only have been applicable if we were denied entrance in CC4 and if the powers at be saw this as a "new" clan, instead of a merge, which is what we see it as. So it is a moot point...


well at least you guys understood the rule that you were not eligible for this event.... or you would not of posted in nc.... but please stop calling what you have done as a merger it is not a merger.
merger=acquisition
An acquisition or takeover is the purchase of one business or company by another company or other business entity. Such purchase may be of 100%, or nearly 100%, of the assets or ownership equity of the acquired entity. Consolidation occurs when two companies combine together to form a new enterprise altogether, and neither of the previous companies survives independently. Acquisitions are divided into "private" and "public" acquisitions, depending on whether the acquiree or merging company (also termed a target) is or is not listed on a public stock market. An additional dimension or categorization consists of whether an acquisition is friendly or hostile.

Achieving acquisition success has proven to be very difficult, while various studies have shown that 50% of acquisitions were unsuccessful.[1] The acquisition process is very complex, with many dimensions influencing its outcome.[2] "Serial acquirers" appear to be more successful with M&A than companies who only make an acquisition occasionally (see Douma & Schreuder, 2013, chapter 13).
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby chemefreak on Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:39 am

eddie2 wrote:
well at least you guys understood the rule that you were not eligible for this event.... or you would not of posted in nc.... but please stop calling what you have done as a merger it is not a merger.
merger=acquisition


I guess they don't teach this kind of stuff in those GED classes...

"When one takes over another and completely establishes itself as the new owner, the purchase is called an 'acquisition'. From a legal point of view, in an acquisition, the target company still exists as an independent legal entity, which is controlled by the acquirer."

"In the pure sense of the term, a 'merger' happens when two firms agree to go forward as a single new entity rather than remain separately owned and operated."
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby eddie2 on Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:45 am

Consolidation occurs when two companies combine together to form a new enterprise altogether, and neither of the previous companies survives independently.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby chemefreak on Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:48 am

eddie2 wrote:Consolidation occurs when two companies combine together to form a new enterprise altogether, and neither of the previous companies survives independently.


Actually, that is not true. A consolidation necessarily requires the survival of one of the consolidated entities. At least legally speaking. The Empire-AoC thing is a merger. No question about it.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby eddie2 on Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:00 am

chemefreak wrote:
eddie2 wrote:Consolidation occurs when two companies combine together to form a new enterprise altogether, and neither of the previous companies survives independently.


Actually, that is not true. A consolidation necessarily requires the survival of one of the consolidated entities. At least legally speaking. The Empire-AoC thing is a merger. No question about it.


is it now well lets see.

empire=32 members.
agents of chaos = 22 players.

this equals 54 players.
The Ultimate Agents of the Empire of Supreme Chaos = 34 players

this makes it that there are still 20 players left that have not joined this merger so if these 20 players start a new clan and say they are merging with each other you will have to give them the same option of allowing them entry to this event. could you say these 20 players were not happy with the merger ??? you could also say these 20 players have made both clans not as strong as they were before. you could say there could be more players to leave this new group.
you could say that these 20 players (might be 10 players from each clan wanted to carry on as clans with 10 players each making this new group unable to have either of the stats of any of the 2 clans.) making it you will have to rank every new clan.

were these 20 players that have not joined asked if they wanted to keep there clans as clans or user groups or did you just go with the majority leaving wanting a new clan...
if it was a merger i think we should of seen at least 80 percent of all members going to the new clan which has not happened.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby jetsetwilly on Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:03 am

eddie2 wrote:
chemefreak wrote:
eddie2 wrote:Consolidation occurs when two companies combine together to form a new enterprise altogether, and neither of the previous companies survives independently.


Actually, that is not true. A consolidation necessarily requires the survival of one of the consolidated entities. At least legally speaking. The Empire-AoC thing is a merger. No question about it.


is it now well lets see.

empire=32 members.
agents of chaos = 22 players.

this equals 54 players.
The Ultimate Agents of the Empire of Supreme Chaos = 34 players

this makes it that there are still 20 players left that have not joined this merger so if these 20 players start a new clan and say they are merging with each other you will have to give them the same option of allowing them entry to this event. could you say these 20 players were not happy with the merger ??? you could also say these 20 players have made both clans not as strong as they were before. you could say there could be more players to leave this new group.
you could say that these 20 players (might be 10 players from each clan wanted to carry on as clans with 10 players each making this new group unable to have either of the stats of any of the 2 clans.) making it you will have to rank every new clan.

were these 20 players that have not joined asked if they wanted to keep there clans as clans or user groups or did you just go with the majority leaving wanting a new clan...
if it was a merger i think we should of seen at least 80 percent of all members going to the new clan which has not happened.


Eddie, take the chat away please, it's been done to death and has no place in this thread anymore. It's also got nothing to do with you so please stop trolling.

Most of the other players have either retired, decided to take a break or were already inactive. A couple joined new clans.
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