CCup4 Comment Thread

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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby jj3044 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:56 pm

eddie2 wrote:also take into account that aoc empire have also posted that they are talking about joining the newcomers cup. So they want to be classed as a new clan to join that event. but classed as a old clan to join this one take your finger out josko and look at what is happening properly because to me it is looking like they want the best of both worlds.

We are planning on playing in the CC4, not the NC...

NC would only have been applicable if we were denied entrance in CC4 and if the powers at be saw this as a "new" clan, instead of a merge, which is what we see it as. So it is a moot point...
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby shoop76 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:11 pm

I see signups are supposed to end on the 19th. What happens if EMPIRE still has an ongoing war?
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby jj3044 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:31 pm

shoop76 wrote:I see signups are supposed to end on the 19th. What happens if EMPIRE still has an ongoing war?

My understanding is that the particular players who still have (old) clan games ongoing will not be able to play until those are finished. It shouldn't be an issue with the merged clan as there will still be plenty of players that do not have any active clan games (those from AOC) to start off. Plus, I would imagine there will be a play-in round ... so it shouldn't matter anyway.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby shoop76 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:34 pm

jj3044 wrote:
shoop76 wrote:I see signups are supposed to end on the 19th. What happens if EMPIRE still has an ongoing war?

My understanding is that the particular players who still have (old) clan games ongoing will not be able to play until those are finished. It shouldn't be an issue with the merged clan as there will still be plenty of players that do not have any active clan games (those from AOC) to start off. Plus, I would imagine there will be a play-in round ... so it shouldn't matter anyway.


Ok thanks for answering the question. Good luck in CC4 and with the new clan.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby eddie2 on Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:31 am

jj3044 wrote:
eddie2 wrote:also take into account that aoc empire have also posted that they are talking about joining the newcomers cup. So they want to be classed as a new clan to join that event. but classed as a old clan to join this one take your finger out josko and look at what is happening properly because to me it is looking like they want the best of both worlds.

We are planning on playing in the CC4, not the NC...

NC would only have been applicable if we were denied entrance in CC4 and if the powers at be saw this as a "new" clan, instead of a merge, which is what we see it as. So it is a moot point...


well at least you guys understood the rule that you were not eligible for this event.... or you would not of posted in nc.... but please stop calling what you have done as a merger it is not a merger.
merger=acquisition
An acquisition or takeover is the purchase of one business or company by another company or other business entity. Such purchase may be of 100%, or nearly 100%, of the assets or ownership equity of the acquired entity. Consolidation occurs when two companies combine together to form a new enterprise altogether, and neither of the previous companies survives independently. Acquisitions are divided into "private" and "public" acquisitions, depending on whether the acquiree or merging company (also termed a target) is or is not listed on a public stock market. An additional dimension or categorization consists of whether an acquisition is friendly or hostile.

Achieving acquisition success has proven to be very difficult, while various studies have shown that 50% of acquisitions were unsuccessful.[1] The acquisition process is very complex, with many dimensions influencing its outcome.[2] "Serial acquirers" appear to be more successful with M&A than companies who only make an acquisition occasionally (see Douma & Schreuder, 2013, chapter 13).
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby chemefreak on Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:39 am

eddie2 wrote:
well at least you guys understood the rule that you were not eligible for this event.... or you would not of posted in nc.... but please stop calling what you have done as a merger it is not a merger.
merger=acquisition


I guess they don't teach this kind of stuff in those GED classes...

"When one takes over another and completely establishes itself as the new owner, the purchase is called an 'acquisition'. From a legal point of view, in an acquisition, the target company still exists as an independent legal entity, which is controlled by the acquirer."

"In the pure sense of the term, a 'merger' happens when two firms agree to go forward as a single new entity rather than remain separately owned and operated."
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby eddie2 on Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:45 am

Consolidation occurs when two companies combine together to form a new enterprise altogether, and neither of the previous companies survives independently.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby chemefreak on Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:48 am

eddie2 wrote:Consolidation occurs when two companies combine together to form a new enterprise altogether, and neither of the previous companies survives independently.


Actually, that is not true. A consolidation necessarily requires the survival of one of the consolidated entities. At least legally speaking. The Empire-AoC thing is a merger. No question about it.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby eddie2 on Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:00 am

chemefreak wrote:
eddie2 wrote:Consolidation occurs when two companies combine together to form a new enterprise altogether, and neither of the previous companies survives independently.


Actually, that is not true. A consolidation necessarily requires the survival of one of the consolidated entities. At least legally speaking. The Empire-AoC thing is a merger. No question about it.


is it now well lets see.

empire=32 members.
agents of chaos = 22 players.

this equals 54 players.
The Ultimate Agents of the Empire of Supreme Chaos = 34 players

this makes it that there are still 20 players left that have not joined this merger so if these 20 players start a new clan and say they are merging with each other you will have to give them the same option of allowing them entry to this event. could you say these 20 players were not happy with the merger ??? you could also say these 20 players have made both clans not as strong as they were before. you could say there could be more players to leave this new group.
you could say that these 20 players (might be 10 players from each clan wanted to carry on as clans with 10 players each making this new group unable to have either of the stats of any of the 2 clans.) making it you will have to rank every new clan.

were these 20 players that have not joined asked if they wanted to keep there clans as clans or user groups or did you just go with the majority leaving wanting a new clan...
if it was a merger i think we should of seen at least 80 percent of all members going to the new clan which has not happened.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby jetsetwilly on Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:03 am

eddie2 wrote:
chemefreak wrote:
eddie2 wrote:Consolidation occurs when two companies combine together to form a new enterprise altogether, and neither of the previous companies survives independently.


Actually, that is not true. A consolidation necessarily requires the survival of one of the consolidated entities. At least legally speaking. The Empire-AoC thing is a merger. No question about it.


is it now well lets see.

empire=32 members.
agents of chaos = 22 players.

this equals 54 players.
The Ultimate Agents of the Empire of Supreme Chaos = 34 players

this makes it that there are still 20 players left that have not joined this merger so if these 20 players start a new clan and say they are merging with each other you will have to give them the same option of allowing them entry to this event. could you say these 20 players were not happy with the merger ??? you could also say these 20 players have made both clans not as strong as they were before. you could say there could be more players to leave this new group.
you could say that these 20 players (might be 10 players from each clan wanted to carry on as clans with 10 players each making this new group unable to have either of the stats of any of the 2 clans.) making it you will have to rank every new clan.

were these 20 players that have not joined asked if they wanted to keep there clans as clans or user groups or did you just go with the majority leaving wanting a new clan...
if it was a merger i think we should of seen at least 80 percent of all members going to the new clan which has not happened.


Eddie, take the chat away please, it's been done to death and has no place in this thread anymore. It's also got nothing to do with you so please stop trolling.

Most of the other players have either retired, decided to take a break or were already inactive. A couple joined new clans.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby eddie2 on Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:28 am

jetsetwilly wrote:
eddie2 wrote:
chemefreak wrote:
eddie2 wrote:Consolidation occurs when two companies combine together to form a new enterprise altogether, and neither of the previous companies survives independently.


Actually, that is not true. A consolidation necessarily requires the survival of one of the consolidated entities. At least legally speaking. The Empire-AoC thing is a merger. No question about it.


is it now well lets see.

empire=32 members.
agents of chaos = 22 players.

this equals 54 players.
The Ultimate Agents of the Empire of Supreme Chaos = 34 players

this makes it that there are still 20 players left that have not joined this merger so if these 20 players start a new clan and say they are merging with each other you will have to give them the same option of allowing them entry to this event. could you say these 20 players were not happy with the merger ??? you could also say these 20 players have made both clans not as strong as they were before. you could say there could be more players to leave this new group.
you could say that these 20 players (might be 10 players from each clan wanted to carry on as clans with 10 players each making this new group unable to have either of the stats of any of the 2 clans.) making it you will have to rank every new clan.

were these 20 players that have not joined asked if they wanted to keep there clans as clans or user groups or did you just go with the majority leaving wanting a new clan...
if it was a merger i think we should of seen at least 80 percent of all members going to the new clan which has not happened.


Eddie, take the chat away please, it's been done to death and has no place in this thread anymore. It's also got nothing to do with you so please stop trolling.

Most of the other players have either retired, decided to take a break or were already inactive. A couple joined new clans.


hum trolling how is that this event is still open for sign ups and minds can be changed.. what i have just brought up is something that could affect this event. which as a clan leader is something the clan will have to take into account and something which needs to be asked about.

where as you have josko in here going on about something that has happened in another event slagging off that event leader spamming this events convo thread with issues from another event. Have you told him to stop trolling this thread ???? my awnser is no because it involves your clan and fighting on your side....

has there been another issue surrounding this kind of behavior in the past let me see.

ow yes last year i wasnt happy that aka had to play a full round of random games for a stage start i did not know about.. the issue was dealt with and 1 organizer started going off about me questioning it. this was all done via pm and not in public...

so josko is going off about aoc empire being removed from cl5 he has came to ccup4 thread slagging off qwert..

are you clan mods going to issue the same punishment issued to me last year...

which was if kort get to a medal situation in cl5 he will not get 1. if he posts in any thread slagging off qwert further steps will be taken. and he is not allowed to post in cl5 thread again or further steps will be taken.. lets just see if you will issue same punishment to another member doing the same as me last year.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby swimmerdude99 on Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:55 am

Eddie, you aren't really discussing CC4. You are talking about stuff that is completely irrelevant? Why don't you just state your problems and then when there are things brought up to argue against your posts, don't talk about your clan and what happened there. Talk about the clans at hand. Your experiences (if I am correct) Have NOTHING to do with any players in AoC and EMP. If your problem is that you think we aren't capable of holding together... (I assume that is it) Would you like us all to post here saying we approve of our leaders and are all working together well?

I guess... to me its hard to respect what you are trying to discuss when you seem to just be talking off of a grudge? I think? I don't know it seems hard to understand. Maybe try restating your opinion and problems with what is happening and say WHY as related to the group you speak of.

I think the issue you have is that you think we aren't going to stick together and work as a group? Well that should be dissproven rather easily by knowing that both clans have great leadership and that all the players support the group. We support our leaders and no one has any problems... We are like a big family cuddling on the couch... in front of a fire watching "Its a wonderful life" with snow falling outside and popcorn and sugar cookies in our lap.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby eddie2 on Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:15 am

swimmerdude99 wrote:Eddie, you aren't really discussing CC4. You are talking about stuff that is completely irrelevant? Why don't you just state your problems and then when there are things brought up to argue against your posts, don't talk about your clan and what happened there. Talk about the clans at hand. Your experiences (if I am correct) Have NOTHING to do with any players in AoC and EMP. If your problem is that you think we aren't capable of holding together... (I assume that is it) Would you like us all to post here saying we approve of our leaders and are all working together well?

I guess... to me its hard to respect what you are trying to discuss when you seem to just be talking off of a grudge? I think? I don't know it seems hard to understand. Maybe try restating your opinion and problems with what is happening and say WHY as related to the group you speak of.

I think the issue you have is that you think we aren't going to stick together and work as a group? Well that should be dissproven rather easily by knowing that both clans have great leadership and that all the players support the group. We support our leaders and no one has any problems... We are like a big family cuddling on the couch... in front of a fire watching "Its a wonderful life" with snow falling outside and popcorn and sugar cookies in our lap.


swimmer i am talking about this event. but lets list what my problems are about all of this and you can go see why i am pissed of.. ps me using examples for what has happened to me aka and time are not used as a grudge just examples of previous similar issues and the punishments issued.

1)The way they took this event off of dako
2)the way they said all clans could have a say on the format then went the opposite of what the majority of clans voted for.
3)clan mods laying down a law that all clans must join cdf to join events.
4)changing the rules for acceptance to cdf when you merged toghther.
5)changing the rules for signing up to this event when you merged together. to allow you entry.
6)being told i am trolling this thread when what another player is doing is worse but ok with them because they are defending the aoc empire merger.

now what rules for clans have clan mods ignored...
1)the sign ups 1 complete challenge 1 month active which was made easier because it was 2 complete challenges and 3 months active.
2) the fact that all aoc empire players did not join your merger meaning them players who did not have the option to keep empire and aoc as active clans.
3)this one is a big one...
Abandoned Clan Wars: Clans that abandon a challenge will lose clan gaming privileges for 3 months.
this means your merged clan should not be allowed privileges for this event but is once again being over looked.

plz don't get me wrong but i have read and have played against several members of your new clan. and respect you guys.but can you not see there has been major issues in this event and it all boils down to how clan mods have acted.

can you not see that you atlantis and vvv joining this event is showing disrespect for all the other clans that have been victim to the rules that have been in place from day 1.

just now what i am seeing is that clan mods are saying show these guys some respect because they are long time serving members of the clan community. but you guys are not showing respect to the clan community by joining up to this event, when clan mods have twisted and bent so many rules surrounding this event to allow you to take part which they have not done in the past to allow other clans to join.

also you could say that if only one of my problems of this event happened it would be a bit annoying and could be forgotten about but because there has been loads of broken promises and twisting of rules and demands from clan mods put it all together and it is a big issue.

clan mods have admitted that i have been victim of bad organizers but what has happened so fair in this event is worse than all them bad organizers put together.

these are my problems about it all and i think they are fair points.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby jetsetwilly on Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:20 am

Ok Eddie, we know how you feel, it's all been said now many times. Nearly everyone else is moving on. Time for you to do the same. You've elected not to take part so there's not need for you to be involved any further.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby eddie2 on Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:54 am

jetsetwilly wrote:Ok Eddie, we know how you feel, it's all been said now many times. Nearly everyone else is moving on. Time for you to do the same. You've elected not to take part so there's not need for you to be involved any further.


jet set like i have said nothing is set in stone yet. from what i can see there is still 6 days left for sign up..

but let me understand this one from the privs rules

Abandoned Clan Wars: Clans that abandon a challenge will lose clan gaming privileges for 3 months.


did aoc empire not abandon cl5 by merging into a new clan instead of a existing clan during the group stages. instead of end of the first stage...

or is this another rule you are going to ignore because 2 of your members are actually clan mods.

and ps this new thing is something that has been brought up in talks outside of the forums... and not just me..

Abandoned Clan Wars: Clans that abandon a challenge will lose clan gaming privileges for 3 months.

I just noticed this in the clan priviledges section. why hasn't this been brought up? if they abandoned CL5 but are new but the same, doesn't the abandonment count then and keeps them out of CC4? unless they are 100% new, then they should have an abandonment on their record
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby BGtheBrain on Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:54 am

I view it as abandonment and I think they should not be allowed in CC4

However, im tired if arguing and just don't care enough to put up a fight.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby chemefreak on Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:56 pm

This our official position. They did not abandon a clan war. This rule was set up for players and clans that simply disappear. (Yes, I wrote this rule.) They approached the CDs that were not in those clans and asked how they should proceed. We felt that since they were starting a new clan they should drop out of CL5 completely and join CCup4 as their new clan. If they had merged into one of the existing clans, they would have been tied to their original clan for the phase and allowed to continue with the other clan. That is not what happened. They wanted a new clan. So it seemed unfair to allow their new clan to advance in CL5 since it did not compete in the first phase. So that is how we came to this decision.

Now, if you really want to get technical with the rule, we could enforce it by saying that the clans Empire and AoC are forbidden from holding privileges for 3 months. See how pointless this would be? Their new clan, however, has done nothing wrong. So it can hold privileges. Now, I guess we could say that the actual privilege holders in CL5 for those two clans should not be allowed to hold privileges for any clan for 3 months. Would that make everyone feel better if we told hyposquasher and jj3044 that they can't hold privileges for 3 months?
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby patrickaa317 on Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:48 pm

chemefreak wrote:This our official position. They did not abandon a clan war. This rule was set up for players and clans that simply disappear. (Yes, I wrote this rule.) They approached the CDs that were not in those clans and asked how they should proceed. We felt that since they were starting a new clan they should drop out of CL5 completely and join CCup4 as their new clan. If they had merged into one of the existing clans, they would have been tied to their original clan for the phase and allowed to continue with the other clan. That is not what happened. They wanted a new clan. So it seemed unfair to allow their new clan to advance in CL5 since it did not compete in the first phase. So that is how we came to this decision.

Now, if you really want to get technical with the rule, we could enforce it by saying that the clans Empire and AoC are forbidden from holding privileges for 3 months. See how pointless this would be? Their new clan, however, has done nothing wrong. So it can hold privileges. Now, I guess we could say that the actual privilege holders in CL5 for those two clans should not be allowed to hold privileges for any clan for 3 months. Would that make everyone feel better if we told hyposquasher and jj3044 that they can't hold privileges for 3 months?


I'm personally ok with this decision as I just like to play the game and will almost always accept an invite that is sent my way, and my clan will typically play against anyone as we all enjoy the game for the game. However I think everyone is just looking for some consistency on how this all developed.

From my limited understanding of this situation:
CC4 - AOC/Empire merger treated as AOC acquiring Empire and seeded accordingly
CL5 - Both clans are removed as they are now under a new clan, rendering all members in-eligible to continue
NCC - Unable to participate as they are not a new clan but rather viewed as a combination of the two existing ones
F400 - Both clans removed and will be ranked under new group

Again, I personally don't care, I am ready to move on with this and get some games going (despite my signature stating I am taking a break, I think I am giving that concept up... :-$ ). I think people are just frustrated with lack of consistency across how this is handled in the clan world.
taking a break from cc, will be back sometime in the future.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby jj3044 on Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:04 pm

Wait... so there is a way I can be banned from running a war thread for 3 months? :oops:

Darn! ;)

Just kidding. I think I enjoy this site a bit too much sometimes! :D
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby Chariot of Fire on Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:09 am

I'm very fond of all the players from AoC and Empire and I wish them well in their new joint venture under a new identity. I do think there have been some inconsistent rulings though when a little common sense could have prevailed.

CL5 - they could easily have finished off their commitments in the qualifying phase as AoC and Empire (and their new clan could have formed as a social group initially, then changed to being a competitive clan once they were through to the divisional stage, retaining the place of the higher-ranked of the two clans and abolishing the other place). It strikes me that CL5 has suffered somewhat from the withdrawal of these two clans, simply to accommodate the new entity in CC4.

CC4 - I have no problem whatsoever with AoE (or whatever they are to be called) entering this tourney so long as they retain the position on the F400 held by the higher of the two clans that merged (which was AoC at #3 I think) and keep the points that were held by them. Talk and speculation of them being a 'new clan' with a 'new starting place' on the F400 ladder would be grossly unfair to the clans who have to meet them compulsorily in CC4. On the question of precedents being set, they really have no bearing on a new tournament with new rules. I felt sorry for clans in the past that weren't accepted into previous tournaments (Clan League & Conqueror's Cup) and believed it to be unfair. So that has been set to rights and the CC4 tourney will be all the richer for it. Are we to expect (judging from complaints about AoE participating) that the same injustices be carried forward in perpetuity? No, right?

CC3/CC4 - If a little logic had been applied it would not have been too contentious to have granted byes to the four clans who had contested the CC3 semi-finals and to have used solely that as the 'seeding' system. This would have allowed CL5 qualifying to run its course with AoC & Empire still involved, it would have scrapped the 16 seeds idea that was implemented, it would have given time to TOFU, AFOS, KORT & AOC to play out their 60 game challenges for the CC3 final & 3rd Place playoff whilst CC4 got underway, it would have established a fair method to use in future editions of the cup whereby the semi-finalists are given a bye so the next edition (CC5) can commence, and it would have been the perfect timeframe for AOC & Empire to meet their commitments and then become the joint venture clan in Round 2 of CC4 and the division stage of CL5.

New/Old clans - this should be looked into and a ruling of sorts made. It still currently shows AOC & Empire as competitive clans if one was to look at their profile pages. The question also arises, what if the members of either of these clans who are not in AoE wish to remain competitive and continue the AoC or Empire name? They would have to remove all the members who are in another competitive clan (namely AoE members) and appoint new heads. But what then of their historical records if they do choose to do this? So what I'm inferring is that some measure of guarantee from the heads of AoC & Empire needs to be made that their old clans will strictly be extinct (not dormant) and that their forums will only ever be for a social group of former members of a competitive clan.

I've given it a lot of thought and the above is the conclusion I've drawn from all the drama. It's the timing of the AOC/Empire merger becoming competitive that needed to be changed (no harm in them getting together immediately and being a social clan at first) and I'm sure if they had been told "We have to apply a standard rule across the board for the two official CC tournies" they would have complied with all requirements or simply accepted they don't qualify for one if they wished to pursue their own agenda.

Thank you.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby Qwert on Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:31 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:I'm very fond of all the players from AoC and Empire and I wish them well in their new joint venture under a new identity. I do think there have been some inconsistent rulings though when a little common sense could have prevailed.

CL5 - they could easily have finished off their commitments in the qualifying phase as AoC and Empire (and their new clan could have formed as a social group initially, then changed to being a competitive clan once they were through to the divisional stage, retaining the place of the higher-ranked of the two clans and abolishing the other place). It strikes me that CL5 has suffered somewhat from the withdrawal of these two clans, simply to accommodate the new entity in CC4.

CC4 - I have no problem whatsoever with AoE (or whatever they are to be called) entering this tourney so long as they retain the position on the F400 held by the higher of the two clans that merged (which was AoC at #3 I think) and keep the points that were held by them. Talk and speculation of them being a 'new clan' with a 'new starting place' on the F400 ladder would be grossly unfair to the clans who have to meet them compulsorily in CC4. On the question of precedents being set, they really have no bearing on a new tournament with new rules. I felt sorry for clans in the past that weren't accepted into previous tournaments (Clan League & Conqueror's Cup) and believed it to be unfair. So that has been set to rights and the CC4 tourney will be all the richer for it. Are we to expect (judging from complaints about AoE participating) that the same injustices be carried forward in perpetuity? No, right?

CC3/CC4 - If a little logic had been applied it would not have been too contentious to have granted byes to the four clans who had contested the CC3 semi-finals and to have used solely that as the 'seeding' system. This would have allowed CL5 qualifying to run its course with AoC & Empire still involved, it would have scrapped the 16 seeds idea that was implemented, it would have given time to TOFU, AFOS, KORT & AOC to play out their 60 game challenges for the CC3 final & 3rd Place playoff whilst CC4 got underway, it would have established a fair method to use in future editions of the cup whereby the semi-finalists are given a bye so the next edition (CC5) can commence, and it would have been the perfect timeframe for AOC & Empire to meet their commitments and then become the joint venture clan in Round 2 of CC4 and the division stage of CL5.

New/Old clans - this should be looked into and a ruling of sorts made. It still currently shows AOC & Empire as competitive clans if one was to look at their profile pages. The question also arises, what if the members of either of these clans who are not in AoE wish to remain competitive and continue the AoC or Empire name? They would have to remove all the members who are in another competitive clan (namely AoE members) and appoint new heads. But what then of their historical records if they do choose to do this? So what I'm inferring is that some measure of guarantee from the heads of AoC & Empire needs to be made that their old clans will strictly be extinct (not dormant) and that their forums will only ever be for a social group of former members of a competitive clan.

I've given it a lot of thought and the above is the conclusion I've drawn from all the drama. It's the timing of the AOC/Empire merger becoming competitive that needed to be changed (no harm in them getting together immediately and being a social clan at first) and I'm sure if they had been told "We have to apply a standard rule across the board for the two official CC tournies" they would have complied with all requirements or simply accepted they don't qualify for one if they wished to pursue their own agenda.

Thank you.

well i think that you put good qualification sugestion, something like experience in new clans joining a tournaments(like total 20 clan war medals).
I think that these need to be approved and implemented, so that we could remove requirement like -3 month old, and 2 war finished.
These could solve all problems, and only realy new clans who dont have any experience in clan world will not be in position to imediatly play in competitions.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby eddie2 on Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:18 pm

chemefreak wrote:This our official position. They did not abandon a clan war. This rule was set up for players and clans that simply disappear. (Yes, I wrote this rule.) They approached the CDs that were not in those clans and asked how they should proceed. We felt that since they were starting a new clan they should drop out of CL5 completely and join CCup4 as their new clan. If they had merged into one of the existing clans, they would have been tied to their original clan for the phase and allowed to continue with the other clan. That is not what happened. They wanted a new clan. So it seemed unfair to allow their new clan to advance in CL5 since it did not compete in the first phase. So that is how we came to this decision.

Now, if you really want to get technical with the rule, we could enforce it by saying that the clans Empire and AoC are forbidden from holding privileges for 3 months. See how pointless this would be? Their new clan, however, has done nothing wrong. So it can hold privileges. Now, I guess we could say that the actual privilege holders in CL5 for those two clans should not be allowed to hold privileges for any clan for 3 months. Would that make everyone feel better if we told hyposquasher and jj3044 that they can't hold privileges for 3 months?


ok a long hard thought about this before i responded...

and chemefreak please can you at least try and treat us clans with a bit of respect instead of a load of bull.. and yes i will use aka time as a example..
This rule was set up for players and clans that simply disappear. (Yes, I wrote this rule.)


wrong i left time because the person who started it said for me to do certain things then started to give out shit saying why do it. time did not disappear they turned into aka under a different new clan only player not to follow was joshyboy koe_sirius. but koe left site for a while and rejoined aka on his return. and i was issued the punishment for it.
They approached the CDs that were not in those clans and asked how they should proceed. We felt that since they were starting a new clan they should drop out of CL5 completely and join CCup4 as their new clan.


either you are telling the truth or the new clan is taking the piss. because they were removed then tried to sign up for newcomers cup. and have since said they only showed interest in that event if they did not get entry to ccup4

They wanted a new clan.


so should be treated as a new clan

So it seemed unfair to allow their new clan to advance in CL5 since it did not compete in the first phase. So that is how we came to this decision.


about the only correct thing you have done in this whole issue...

now the rule surrounding all of this was clans must complete

2 wars and been a serving clan for 3 months.
this was reduced and i for one 1 hundred percent agree with that to.

1 month and 1 clan war...

but on the joining of empire aoc you just got rid of the rule altogether.

now if you went with cof's idea to postpone this event to the finals of ccup3 were over then this would give all clans that are active and not meeting the requirements time to complete 1 war and be active 1 month.

now cof i agree with your post 1 hundred percent..

1)this event should not start till ccup3 has finished
2) since there are seedings. should they not be reduced because if all clans join it could mean seeded clans playing in the play in rounds. or are they going to make non seeded clans play more than 1 round of play ins ????
3)i do not agree with this part.
So what I'm inferring is that some measure of guarantee from the heads of AoC & Empire needs to be made that their old clans will strictly be extinct (not dormant) and that their forums will only ever be for a social group of former members of a competitive clan.


the heads have moved to the new clan and won a majority vote within there clans (i presume) to do so...

it should be the players they left behind not willing to join a new clan who should have the say on if they want to continue and remove all the other players... did we not have something like this happen with
risk attackers
war.
where 80 percent of ra moved to war clan leaving violet with not enough members to have a clan and she was given time to get the clan back up above 10 players.. and keep ra rankings in f400.

ok on another note i will post this somewhere else follow this link and comment on it..
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=438&t=189322
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby swimmerdude99 on Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:29 pm

There are some things in life that come with a different answer depending on the circumstance. I think the main problem here for you is you have 1) probably a grudge of some sort (I'm not familiar with it, and am not about to start derailing this thread by asking about it haha) 2) you don't think that things should be different depending on the circumstances. When making a call you hsould take into account a persons character or motives in doing something. I guess that however the decisions were made the goal was to reflect how it was handled and how best to move forward. Obviously you disagree with the stance but I don't understand why you think your arguments change anything? What seems to be happening is you are getting more upset with something, and making other people more hostile to you.

We have not been allowed to continue CL5. We are hopefully going to be allowed into CC4 because we are an experienced group fo players with great leaders that are respected in the clan world. As stated in the CC4 thread they want the leaders to be capable of running wars. We can certainly do that, not sure why earlier you posted having an issue with whether we could hold ourselves together. We most certainly can with some of the best leadership on the site imho.

The reason it is unfair to do CL5 is because we are now stronger most likely than before, so continuing for the "other clan" as in a merger literally woulnd't be fair. However for CC4. We ARE a "new clan" but at the same time we as old clans lived up to the expetations needed to compete in CC4, and since we havne't already joined as Empire and AoC. Its fine to join because it won't disrupt the current ongoing experience. Why? Because it is still in sign ups.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby eddie2 on Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:42 pm

swimmerdude99 wrote: As stated in the CC4 thread they want the leaders to be capable of running wars. We can certainly do that


yes and if that was the rule they started with then ok. but it was not they started it with meeting the requirements of cdf. which was 1 complete war and 1 month active.

also stating must be members of cdf again needing 1 month and 1 war...

i am not doing this out of a grudge. i am doing this because i want every clan treated the same. if they had changed the rules before you merged together then there would of been no problem for me.. but they changed the rules to accommodate you which i do have a problem about... even atlantis posted earlier saying

"what so we can take part now."
so they must of been told they could not. but because they changed to allow you they can take part why would they not of changed for them ????

like i have said i respect you guys but do not respect what is happening here...

if you cannot see that then obviously you are being blinded because this inconsistency is in your favour..
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby jetsetwilly on Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:08 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:I'm very fond of all the players from AoC and Empire and I wish them well in their new joint venture under a new identity. I do think there have been some inconsistent rulings though when a little common sense could have prevailed.

CL5 - they could easily have finished off their commitments in the qualifying phase as AoC and Empire (and their new clan could have formed as a social group initially, then changed to being a competitive clan once they were through to the divisional stage, retaining the place of the higher-ranked of the two clans and abolishing the other place). It strikes me that CL5 has suffered somewhat from the withdrawal of these two clans, simply to accommodate the new entity in CC4.

CC4 - I have no problem whatsoever with AoE (or whatever they are to be called) entering this tourney so long as they retain the position on the F400 held by the higher of the two clans that merged (which was AoC at #3 I think) and keep the points that were held by them. Talk and speculation of them being a 'new clan' with a 'new starting place' on the F400 ladder would be grossly unfair to the clans who have to meet them compulsorily in CC4. On the question of precedents being set, they really have no bearing on a new tournament with new rules. I felt sorry for clans in the past that weren't accepted into previous tournaments (Clan League & Conqueror's Cup) and believed it to be unfair. So that has been set to rights and the CC4 tourney will be all the richer for it. Are we to expect (judging from complaints about AoE participating) that the same injustices be carried forward in perpetuity? No, right? - I believe we are to begin from the bottom of the F400, that's Icepack's call and it's his system so we wont be arguing with wherever he puts us. I do tend to agree with you who but it's not something we intend to make a fuss over. Whichever way you played the F400 decision you would annoy someone !

CC3/CC4 - If a little logic had been applied it would not have been too contentious to have granted byes to the four clans who had contested the CC3 semi-finals and to have used solely that as the 'seeding' system. This would have allowed CL5 qualifying to run its course with AoC & Empire still involved, it would have scrapped the 16 seeds idea that was implemented, it would have given time to TOFU, AFOS, KORT & AOC to play out their 60 game challenges for the CC3 final & 3rd Place playoff whilst CC4 got underway, it would have established a fair method to use in future editions of the cup whereby the semi-finalists are given a bye so the next edition (CC5) can commence, and it would have been the perfect timeframe for AOC & Empire to meet their commitments and then become the joint venture clan in Round 2 of CC4 and the division stage of CL5.

New/Old clans - this should be looked into and a ruling of sorts made. It still currently shows AOC & Empire as competitive clans if one was to look at their profile pages. The question also arises, what if the members of either of these clans who are not in AoE wish to remain competitive and continue the AoC or Empire name? They would have to remove all the members who are in another competitive clan (namely AoE members) and appoint new heads. But what then of their historical records if they do choose to do this? So what I'm inferring is that some measure of guarantee from the heads of AoC & Empire needs to be made that their old clans will strictly be extinct (not dormant) and that their forums will only ever be for a social group of former members of a competitive clan. AOC and Empire will become social groups very soon. We can give you the guarantee than neither clan will go independent. Speaking for AOC there are only 4 players in that group who aren't in the merged clan. 2 of them have quit CC and the other 2 are only playing a handful of casual games.

I've given it a lot of thought and the above is the conclusion I've drawn from all the drama. It's the timing of the AOC/Empire merger becoming competitive that needed to be changed (no harm in them getting together immediately and being a social clan at first) and I'm sure if they had been told "We have to apply a standard rule across the board for the two official CC tournies" they would have complied with all requirements or simply accepted they don't qualify for one if they wished to pursue their own agenda.

Thank you.
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