CCup4 Comment Thread

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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby BGtheBrain on Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:54 am

I view it as abandonment and I think they should not be allowed in CC4

However, im tired if arguing and just don't care enough to put up a fight.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby chemefreak on Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:56 pm

This our official position. They did not abandon a clan war. This rule was set up for players and clans that simply disappear. (Yes, I wrote this rule.) They approached the CDs that were not in those clans and asked how they should proceed. We felt that since they were starting a new clan they should drop out of CL5 completely and join CCup4 as their new clan. If they had merged into one of the existing clans, they would have been tied to their original clan for the phase and allowed to continue with the other clan. That is not what happened. They wanted a new clan. So it seemed unfair to allow their new clan to advance in CL5 since it did not compete in the first phase. So that is how we came to this decision.

Now, if you really want to get technical with the rule, we could enforce it by saying that the clans Empire and AoC are forbidden from holding privileges for 3 months. See how pointless this would be? Their new clan, however, has done nothing wrong. So it can hold privileges. Now, I guess we could say that the actual privilege holders in CL5 for those two clans should not be allowed to hold privileges for any clan for 3 months. Would that make everyone feel better if we told hyposquasher and jj3044 that they can't hold privileges for 3 months?
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby patrickaa317 on Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:48 pm

chemefreak wrote:This our official position. They did not abandon a clan war. This rule was set up for players and clans that simply disappear. (Yes, I wrote this rule.) They approached the CDs that were not in those clans and asked how they should proceed. We felt that since they were starting a new clan they should drop out of CL5 completely and join CCup4 as their new clan. If they had merged into one of the existing clans, they would have been tied to their original clan for the phase and allowed to continue with the other clan. That is not what happened. They wanted a new clan. So it seemed unfair to allow their new clan to advance in CL5 since it did not compete in the first phase. So that is how we came to this decision.

Now, if you really want to get technical with the rule, we could enforce it by saying that the clans Empire and AoC are forbidden from holding privileges for 3 months. See how pointless this would be? Their new clan, however, has done nothing wrong. So it can hold privileges. Now, I guess we could say that the actual privilege holders in CL5 for those two clans should not be allowed to hold privileges for any clan for 3 months. Would that make everyone feel better if we told hyposquasher and jj3044 that they can't hold privileges for 3 months?


I'm personally ok with this decision as I just like to play the game and will almost always accept an invite that is sent my way, and my clan will typically play against anyone as we all enjoy the game for the game. However I think everyone is just looking for some consistency on how this all developed.

From my limited understanding of this situation:
CC4 - AOC/Empire merger treated as AOC acquiring Empire and seeded accordingly
CL5 - Both clans are removed as they are now under a new clan, rendering all members in-eligible to continue
NCC - Unable to participate as they are not a new clan but rather viewed as a combination of the two existing ones
F400 - Both clans removed and will be ranked under new group

Again, I personally don't care, I am ready to move on with this and get some games going (despite my signature stating I am taking a break, I think I am giving that concept up... :-$ ). I think people are just frustrated with lack of consistency across how this is handled in the clan world.
taking a break from cc, will be back sometime in the future.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby jj3044 on Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:04 pm

Wait... so there is a way I can be banned from running a war thread for 3 months? :oops:

Darn! ;)

Just kidding. I think I enjoy this site a bit too much sometimes! :D
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby Chariot of Fire on Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:09 am

I'm very fond of all the players from AoC and Empire and I wish them well in their new joint venture under a new identity. I do think there have been some inconsistent rulings though when a little common sense could have prevailed.

CL5 - they could easily have finished off their commitments in the qualifying phase as AoC and Empire (and their new clan could have formed as a social group initially, then changed to being a competitive clan once they were through to the divisional stage, retaining the place of the higher-ranked of the two clans and abolishing the other place). It strikes me that CL5 has suffered somewhat from the withdrawal of these two clans, simply to accommodate the new entity in CC4.

CC4 - I have no problem whatsoever with AoE (or whatever they are to be called) entering this tourney so long as they retain the position on the F400 held by the higher of the two clans that merged (which was AoC at #3 I think) and keep the points that were held by them. Talk and speculation of them being a 'new clan' with a 'new starting place' on the F400 ladder would be grossly unfair to the clans who have to meet them compulsorily in CC4. On the question of precedents being set, they really have no bearing on a new tournament with new rules. I felt sorry for clans in the past that weren't accepted into previous tournaments (Clan League & Conqueror's Cup) and believed it to be unfair. So that has been set to rights and the CC4 tourney will be all the richer for it. Are we to expect (judging from complaints about AoE participating) that the same injustices be carried forward in perpetuity? No, right?

CC3/CC4 - If a little logic had been applied it would not have been too contentious to have granted byes to the four clans who had contested the CC3 semi-finals and to have used solely that as the 'seeding' system. This would have allowed CL5 qualifying to run its course with AoC & Empire still involved, it would have scrapped the 16 seeds idea that was implemented, it would have given time to TOFU, AFOS, KORT & AOC to play out their 60 game challenges for the CC3 final & 3rd Place playoff whilst CC4 got underway, it would have established a fair method to use in future editions of the cup whereby the semi-finalists are given a bye so the next edition (CC5) can commence, and it would have been the perfect timeframe for AOC & Empire to meet their commitments and then become the joint venture clan in Round 2 of CC4 and the division stage of CL5.

New/Old clans - this should be looked into and a ruling of sorts made. It still currently shows AOC & Empire as competitive clans if one was to look at their profile pages. The question also arises, what if the members of either of these clans who are not in AoE wish to remain competitive and continue the AoC or Empire name? They would have to remove all the members who are in another competitive clan (namely AoE members) and appoint new heads. But what then of their historical records if they do choose to do this? So what I'm inferring is that some measure of guarantee from the heads of AoC & Empire needs to be made that their old clans will strictly be extinct (not dormant) and that their forums will only ever be for a social group of former members of a competitive clan.

I've given it a lot of thought and the above is the conclusion I've drawn from all the drama. It's the timing of the AOC/Empire merger becoming competitive that needed to be changed (no harm in them getting together immediately and being a social clan at first) and I'm sure if they had been told "We have to apply a standard rule across the board for the two official CC tournies" they would have complied with all requirements or simply accepted they don't qualify for one if they wished to pursue their own agenda.

Thank you.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby Qwert on Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:31 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:I'm very fond of all the players from AoC and Empire and I wish them well in their new joint venture under a new identity. I do think there have been some inconsistent rulings though when a little common sense could have prevailed.

CL5 - they could easily have finished off their commitments in the qualifying phase as AoC and Empire (and their new clan could have formed as a social group initially, then changed to being a competitive clan once they were through to the divisional stage, retaining the place of the higher-ranked of the two clans and abolishing the other place). It strikes me that CL5 has suffered somewhat from the withdrawal of these two clans, simply to accommodate the new entity in CC4.

CC4 - I have no problem whatsoever with AoE (or whatever they are to be called) entering this tourney so long as they retain the position on the F400 held by the higher of the two clans that merged (which was AoC at #3 I think) and keep the points that were held by them. Talk and speculation of them being a 'new clan' with a 'new starting place' on the F400 ladder would be grossly unfair to the clans who have to meet them compulsorily in CC4. On the question of precedents being set, they really have no bearing on a new tournament with new rules. I felt sorry for clans in the past that weren't accepted into previous tournaments (Clan League & Conqueror's Cup) and believed it to be unfair. So that has been set to rights and the CC4 tourney will be all the richer for it. Are we to expect (judging from complaints about AoE participating) that the same injustices be carried forward in perpetuity? No, right?

CC3/CC4 - If a little logic had been applied it would not have been too contentious to have granted byes to the four clans who had contested the CC3 semi-finals and to have used solely that as the 'seeding' system. This would have allowed CL5 qualifying to run its course with AoC & Empire still involved, it would have scrapped the 16 seeds idea that was implemented, it would have given time to TOFU, AFOS, KORT & AOC to play out their 60 game challenges for the CC3 final & 3rd Place playoff whilst CC4 got underway, it would have established a fair method to use in future editions of the cup whereby the semi-finalists are given a bye so the next edition (CC5) can commence, and it would have been the perfect timeframe for AOC & Empire to meet their commitments and then become the joint venture clan in Round 2 of CC4 and the division stage of CL5.

New/Old clans - this should be looked into and a ruling of sorts made. It still currently shows AOC & Empire as competitive clans if one was to look at their profile pages. The question also arises, what if the members of either of these clans who are not in AoE wish to remain competitive and continue the AoC or Empire name? They would have to remove all the members who are in another competitive clan (namely AoE members) and appoint new heads. But what then of their historical records if they do choose to do this? So what I'm inferring is that some measure of guarantee from the heads of AoC & Empire needs to be made that their old clans will strictly be extinct (not dormant) and that their forums will only ever be for a social group of former members of a competitive clan.

I've given it a lot of thought and the above is the conclusion I've drawn from all the drama. It's the timing of the AOC/Empire merger becoming competitive that needed to be changed (no harm in them getting together immediately and being a social clan at first) and I'm sure if they had been told "We have to apply a standard rule across the board for the two official CC tournies" they would have complied with all requirements or simply accepted they don't qualify for one if they wished to pursue their own agenda.

Thank you.

well i think that you put good qualification sugestion, something like experience in new clans joining a tournaments(like total 20 clan war medals).
I think that these need to be approved and implemented, so that we could remove requirement like -3 month old, and 2 war finished.
These could solve all problems, and only realy new clans who dont have any experience in clan world will not be in position to imediatly play in competitions.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby eddie2 on Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:18 pm

chemefreak wrote:This our official position. They did not abandon a clan war. This rule was set up for players and clans that simply disappear. (Yes, I wrote this rule.) They approached the CDs that were not in those clans and asked how they should proceed. We felt that since they were starting a new clan they should drop out of CL5 completely and join CCup4 as their new clan. If they had merged into one of the existing clans, they would have been tied to their original clan for the phase and allowed to continue with the other clan. That is not what happened. They wanted a new clan. So it seemed unfair to allow their new clan to advance in CL5 since it did not compete in the first phase. So that is how we came to this decision.

Now, if you really want to get technical with the rule, we could enforce it by saying that the clans Empire and AoC are forbidden from holding privileges for 3 months. See how pointless this would be? Their new clan, however, has done nothing wrong. So it can hold privileges. Now, I guess we could say that the actual privilege holders in CL5 for those two clans should not be allowed to hold privileges for any clan for 3 months. Would that make everyone feel better if we told hyposquasher and jj3044 that they can't hold privileges for 3 months?


ok a long hard thought about this before i responded...

and chemefreak please can you at least try and treat us clans with a bit of respect instead of a load of bull.. and yes i will use aka time as a example..
This rule was set up for players and clans that simply disappear. (Yes, I wrote this rule.)


wrong i left time because the person who started it said for me to do certain things then started to give out shit saying why do it. time did not disappear they turned into aka under a different new clan only player not to follow was joshyboy koe_sirius. but koe left site for a while and rejoined aka on his return. and i was issued the punishment for it.
They approached the CDs that were not in those clans and asked how they should proceed. We felt that since they were starting a new clan they should drop out of CL5 completely and join CCup4 as their new clan.


either you are telling the truth or the new clan is taking the piss. because they were removed then tried to sign up for newcomers cup. and have since said they only showed interest in that event if they did not get entry to ccup4

They wanted a new clan.


so should be treated as a new clan

So it seemed unfair to allow their new clan to advance in CL5 since it did not compete in the first phase. So that is how we came to this decision.


about the only correct thing you have done in this whole issue...

now the rule surrounding all of this was clans must complete

2 wars and been a serving clan for 3 months.
this was reduced and i for one 1 hundred percent agree with that to.

1 month and 1 clan war...

but on the joining of empire aoc you just got rid of the rule altogether.

now if you went with cof's idea to postpone this event to the finals of ccup3 were over then this would give all clans that are active and not meeting the requirements time to complete 1 war and be active 1 month.

now cof i agree with your post 1 hundred percent..

1)this event should not start till ccup3 has finished
2) since there are seedings. should they not be reduced because if all clans join it could mean seeded clans playing in the play in rounds. or are they going to make non seeded clans play more than 1 round of play ins ????
3)i do not agree with this part.
So what I'm inferring is that some measure of guarantee from the heads of AoC & Empire needs to be made that their old clans will strictly be extinct (not dormant) and that their forums will only ever be for a social group of former members of a competitive clan.


the heads have moved to the new clan and won a majority vote within there clans (i presume) to do so...

it should be the players they left behind not willing to join a new clan who should have the say on if they want to continue and remove all the other players... did we not have something like this happen with
risk attackers
war.
where 80 percent of ra moved to war clan leaving violet with not enough members to have a clan and she was given time to get the clan back up above 10 players.. and keep ra rankings in f400.

ok on another note i will post this somewhere else follow this link and comment on it..
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=438&t=189322
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby swimmerdude99 on Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:29 pm

There are some things in life that come with a different answer depending on the circumstance. I think the main problem here for you is you have 1) probably a grudge of some sort (I'm not familiar with it, and am not about to start derailing this thread by asking about it haha) 2) you don't think that things should be different depending on the circumstances. When making a call you hsould take into account a persons character or motives in doing something. I guess that however the decisions were made the goal was to reflect how it was handled and how best to move forward. Obviously you disagree with the stance but I don't understand why you think your arguments change anything? What seems to be happening is you are getting more upset with something, and making other people more hostile to you.

We have not been allowed to continue CL5. We are hopefully going to be allowed into CC4 because we are an experienced group fo players with great leaders that are respected in the clan world. As stated in the CC4 thread they want the leaders to be capable of running wars. We can certainly do that, not sure why earlier you posted having an issue with whether we could hold ourselves together. We most certainly can with some of the best leadership on the site imho.

The reason it is unfair to do CL5 is because we are now stronger most likely than before, so continuing for the "other clan" as in a merger literally woulnd't be fair. However for CC4. We ARE a "new clan" but at the same time we as old clans lived up to the expetations needed to compete in CC4, and since we havne't already joined as Empire and AoC. Its fine to join because it won't disrupt the current ongoing experience. Why? Because it is still in sign ups.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby eddie2 on Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:42 pm

swimmerdude99 wrote: As stated in the CC4 thread they want the leaders to be capable of running wars. We can certainly do that


yes and if that was the rule they started with then ok. but it was not they started it with meeting the requirements of cdf. which was 1 complete war and 1 month active.

also stating must be members of cdf again needing 1 month and 1 war...

i am not doing this out of a grudge. i am doing this because i want every clan treated the same. if they had changed the rules before you merged together then there would of been no problem for me.. but they changed the rules to accommodate you which i do have a problem about... even atlantis posted earlier saying

"what so we can take part now."
so they must of been told they could not. but because they changed to allow you they can take part why would they not of changed for them ????

like i have said i respect you guys but do not respect what is happening here...

if you cannot see that then obviously you are being blinded because this inconsistency is in your favour..
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby jetsetwilly on Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:08 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:I'm very fond of all the players from AoC and Empire and I wish them well in their new joint venture under a new identity. I do think there have been some inconsistent rulings though when a little common sense could have prevailed.

CL5 - they could easily have finished off their commitments in the qualifying phase as AoC and Empire (and their new clan could have formed as a social group initially, then changed to being a competitive clan once they were through to the divisional stage, retaining the place of the higher-ranked of the two clans and abolishing the other place). It strikes me that CL5 has suffered somewhat from the withdrawal of these two clans, simply to accommodate the new entity in CC4.

CC4 - I have no problem whatsoever with AoE (or whatever they are to be called) entering this tourney so long as they retain the position on the F400 held by the higher of the two clans that merged (which was AoC at #3 I think) and keep the points that were held by them. Talk and speculation of them being a 'new clan' with a 'new starting place' on the F400 ladder would be grossly unfair to the clans who have to meet them compulsorily in CC4. On the question of precedents being set, they really have no bearing on a new tournament with new rules. I felt sorry for clans in the past that weren't accepted into previous tournaments (Clan League & Conqueror's Cup) and believed it to be unfair. So that has been set to rights and the CC4 tourney will be all the richer for it. Are we to expect (judging from complaints about AoE participating) that the same injustices be carried forward in perpetuity? No, right? - I believe we are to begin from the bottom of the F400, that's Icepack's call and it's his system so we wont be arguing with wherever he puts us. I do tend to agree with you who but it's not something we intend to make a fuss over. Whichever way you played the F400 decision you would annoy someone !

CC3/CC4 - If a little logic had been applied it would not have been too contentious to have granted byes to the four clans who had contested the CC3 semi-finals and to have used solely that as the 'seeding' system. This would have allowed CL5 qualifying to run its course with AoC & Empire still involved, it would have scrapped the 16 seeds idea that was implemented, it would have given time to TOFU, AFOS, KORT & AOC to play out their 60 game challenges for the CC3 final & 3rd Place playoff whilst CC4 got underway, it would have established a fair method to use in future editions of the cup whereby the semi-finalists are given a bye so the next edition (CC5) can commence, and it would have been the perfect timeframe for AOC & Empire to meet their commitments and then become the joint venture clan in Round 2 of CC4 and the division stage of CL5.

New/Old clans - this should be looked into and a ruling of sorts made. It still currently shows AOC & Empire as competitive clans if one was to look at their profile pages. The question also arises, what if the members of either of these clans who are not in AoE wish to remain competitive and continue the AoC or Empire name? They would have to remove all the members who are in another competitive clan (namely AoE members) and appoint new heads. But what then of their historical records if they do choose to do this? So what I'm inferring is that some measure of guarantee from the heads of AoC & Empire needs to be made that their old clans will strictly be extinct (not dormant) and that their forums will only ever be for a social group of former members of a competitive clan. AOC and Empire will become social groups very soon. We can give you the guarantee than neither clan will go independent. Speaking for AOC there are only 4 players in that group who aren't in the merged clan. 2 of them have quit CC and the other 2 are only playing a handful of casual games.

I've given it a lot of thought and the above is the conclusion I've drawn from all the drama. It's the timing of the AOC/Empire merger becoming competitive that needed to be changed (no harm in them getting together immediately and being a social clan at first) and I'm sure if they had been told "We have to apply a standard rule across the board for the two official CC tournies" they would have complied with all requirements or simply accepted they don't qualify for one if they wished to pursue their own agenda.

Thank you.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby chemefreak on Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:41 pm

All -

This thread has gone off track.

The decisions being complained about have been made and are NEVER going to change. Everyone has valid arguments and concerns, but the fact is what is done, is already done.

There will be no changes. AoC and Empire will cease being part of CL5. It will be like they never existed. Their new clan will not be able to continue on in any form in CL5. Their new clan will be allowed to participate in CCup4.

VVV and Atlantis will be admitted into CCup4 if they decide to play.

Jetsetwilly has left the Clan Directors.

Another will be leaving soon.

The next post in this thread that does not have anything to do with the format of the CCup4 will get it locked.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby eddie2 on Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:00 pm

chemefreak wrote:All -

This thread has gone off track.

The decisions being complained about have been made and are NEVER going to change. Everyone has valid arguments and concerns, but the fact is what is done, is already done.

There will be no changes. AoC and Empire will cease being part of CL5. It will be like they never existed. Their new clan will not be able to continue on in any form in CL5. Their new clan will be allowed to participate in CCup4.

VVV and Atlantis will be admitted into CCup4 if they decide to play.

Jetsetwilly has left the Clan Directors.

Another will be leaving soon.

The next post in this thread that does not have anything to do with the format of the CCup4 will get it locked.


to start off respect to jetsetwilly for stepping down it was a correct thing for one of them to do. and i will be the first to say thankyou for your time spent as clan moderator.

chemefreak question about the format just in case there is a mad rush to the finish of signups.

you say a play in round with 16 seeded clans the 16 seeded clans get excluded from the play in round.

so there are 51 or 52 clans so if 50 sign up and the tourney only has space for 32. how will you play it down..

50-32=18 32 -18=14
so will 2 seeded clans have to play in the playins.

or will it be
2 play in rounds to hit the non seeded clans down till you get to 32... and if so how will you pick the clans that have to play 2 play in rounds..
would it not be better reducing the no of seeds just now to 14 to cover this in case it happens(and you dont have to tell a seeded clan they need to play in the playins. or a non seeded that they have to play 2 rounds. which cannot be fairly chosen) or for next years event reduce it straight to the 8 because there are bound to be more clans started by then and this will give you a format you can use next year with no changes.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby chemefreak on Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:05 pm

eddie2 wrote:
chemefreak wrote:All -

This thread has gone off track.

The decisions being complained about have been made and are NEVER going to change. Everyone has valid arguments and concerns, but the fact is what is done, is already done.

There will be no changes. AoC and Empire will cease being part of CL5. It will be like they never existed. Their new clan will not be able to continue on in any form in CL5. Their new clan will be allowed to participate in CCup4.

VVV and Atlantis will be admitted into CCup4 if they decide to play.

Jetsetwilly has left the Clan Directors.

Another will be leaving soon.

The next post in this thread that does not have anything to do with the format of the CCup4 will get it locked.


to start off respect to jetsetwilly for stepping down it was a correct thing for one of them to do. and i will be the first to say thankyou for your time spent as clan moderator.

chemefreak question about the format just in case there is a mad rush to the finish of signups.

you say a play in round with 16 seeded clans the 16 seeded clans get excluded from the play in round.

so there are 51 or 52 clans so if 50 sign up and the tourney only has space for 32. how will you play it down..

50-32=18 32 -18=14
so will 2 seeded clans have to play in the playins.

or will it be
2 play in rounds to hit the non seeded clans down till you get to 32... and if so how will you pick the clans that have to play 2 play in rounds..
would it not be better reducing the no of seeds just now to 14 to cover this in case it happens(and you dont have to tell a seeded clan they need to play in the playins. or a non seeded that they have to play 2 rounds. which cannot be fairly chosen) or for next years event reduce it straight to the 8 because there are bound to be more clans started by then and this will give you a format you can use next year with no changes.


Wow, you are being optimistic!

I think we would all like to see 40 or so clans sign up. If that happens, there will be a "play-in" to determine the 16 clans that will be randomly selected to play the Top 16. So in your scenario, there would have to be more than 48 clans that sign up....which is not going to be an issue. That being said, if 32 don't sign up...well...you can see the issue there or if an odd # over 32 sign up...we have contingencies for every scenario. Let's just see how it plays out.

Since you have stated that AKA is not going to be participating, I feel that any further posts by you are off topic. So if you post again (without stating that AKA is going to join) I will lock this. Cheers.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby Vid_FISO on Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:12 pm

chemefreak wrote:All -

This thread has gone off track.

The decisions being complained about have been made and are NEVER going to change. Everyone has valid arguments and concerns, but the fact is what is done, is already done.

............

Jetsetwilly has left the Clan Directors.

Another will be leaving soon.

The next post in this thread that does not have anything to do with the format of the CCup4 will get it locked.


Very poor decisions making all around, have any of you considered the future? You're painting yourselves into a corner that will inevitably cause even more problems for everyone.
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Re: CCup4 Comment Thread

Postby chemefreak on Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:14 pm

Vid_FISO wrote:
chemefreak wrote:All -

This thread has gone off track.

The decisions being complained about have been made and are NEVER going to change. Everyone has valid arguments and concerns, but the fact is what is done, is already done.

............

Jetsetwilly has left the Clan Directors.

Another will be leaving soon.

The next post in this thread that does not have anything to do with the format of the CCup4 will get it locked.


Very poor decisions making all around, have any of you considered the future? You're painting yourselves into a corner that will inevitably cause even more problems for everyone.


Thank you! A warning was issued. This thread is now LOCKED.
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