Dropping Major Clan Events

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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby Doc_Brown on Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:21 pm

chapcrap wrote:
Doc_Brown wrote:Which of the following do you think is a more preferable situation?
1) More clans participating in events, with an occasional clan dropping out before or in between wars.
2) Fewer clans participating with minimal (or zero) dropouts.

To put this another way, would CC4 be a better event if only 20-25 clans signed up but you knew all were going to stay in until they were eliminated? Cheme already noted that they have the authority to issue appropriate penalties once privileges are issued, so we're talking about clans dropping out between or before wars. Because if you impose severe penalties (and a big hit to rankings or a ban from a future major event is severe), clans are going to avoid joining if they think there is even the chance they might have to drop out. Clans hovering in the 10-20 member range are going to be far less likely to join events. New events like Lx's cup probably end up with 3-4 participating clans. Is that a better outcome for the clan world? I really don't see how. The only proposal I've seen that doesn't result in significant harm to clan life as a whole is Foxy's: If a clan has to drop out due to inability (or anticipated inability) to fill the game slots, it is required to recruit new members prior to joining a new event.

I choose penalizing for dropouts so that we get less.


By that, I take it you mean fewer clan dropouts, less clan participation, fewer clans overall, and a less active clan system (and a less fair one at that if you're punishing the innocent parties left high and dry after multiple members leave their clan or quit participating, and add to that fewer clans since the severely punished ones will likely cease to exist altogether). I feel like I'm starting to sound like a broken record. I just haven't heard anyone explain why making clan life less fun for everyone is a good exchange for eliminating the rare case of one or more clans being awarded a surprise bye in one round or another of some event. In my mind, less participation has a far more negative impact on everyone than the current situation.
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby ljex on Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:36 pm

Doc_Brown wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
Doc_Brown wrote:Which of the following do you think is a more preferable situation?
1) More clans participating in events, with an occasional clan dropping out before or in between wars.
2) Fewer clans participating with minimal (or zero) dropouts.

To put this another way, would CC4 be a better event if only 20-25 clans signed up but you knew all were going to stay in until they were eliminated? Cheme already noted that they have the authority to issue appropriate penalties once privileges are issued, so we're talking about clans dropping out between or before wars. Because if you impose severe penalties (and a big hit to rankings or a ban from a future major event is severe), clans are going to avoid joining if they think there is even the chance they might have to drop out. Clans hovering in the 10-20 member range are going to be far less likely to join events. New events like Lx's cup probably end up with 3-4 participating clans. Is that a better outcome for the clan world? I really don't see how. The only proposal I've seen that doesn't result in significant harm to clan life as a whole is Foxy's: If a clan has to drop out due to inability (or anticipated inability) to fill the game slots, it is required to recruit new members prior to joining a new event.

I choose penalizing for dropouts so that we get less.


By that, I take it you mean fewer clan dropouts, less clan participation, fewer clans overall, and a less active clan system (and a less fair one at that if you're punishing the innocent parties left high and dry after multiple members leave their clan or quit participating, and add to that fewer clans since the severely punished ones will likely cease to exist altogether). I feel like I'm starting to sound like a broken record. I just haven't heard anyone explain why making clan life less fun for everyone is a good exchange for eliminating the rare case of one or more clans being awarded a surprise bye in one round or another of some event. In my mind, less participation has a far more negative impact on everyone than the current situation.


I doubt that the average clan will worry about this but the top 5 or so will for sure which will make the level of competition worse
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby IcePack on Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:07 pm

Doc_Brown wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
Doc_Brown wrote:Which of the following do you think is a more preferable situation?
1) More clans participating in events, with an occasional clan dropping out before or in between wars.
2) Fewer clans participating with minimal (or zero) dropouts.

To put this another way, would CC4 be a better event if only 20-25 clans signed up but you knew all were going to stay in until they were eliminated? Cheme already noted that they have the authority to issue appropriate penalties once privileges are issued, so we're talking about clans dropping out between or before wars. Because if you impose severe penalties (and a big hit to rankings or a ban from a future major event is severe), clans are going to avoid joining if they think there is even the chance they might have to drop out. Clans hovering in the 10-20 member range are going to be far less likely to join events. New events like Lx's cup probably end up with 3-4 participating clans. Is that a better outcome for the clan world? I really don't see how. The only proposal I've seen that doesn't result in significant harm to clan life as a whole is Foxy's: If a clan has to drop out due to inability (or anticipated inability) to fill the game slots, it is required to recruit new members prior to joining a new event.

I choose penalizing for dropouts so that we get less.


By that, I take it you mean fewer clan dropouts, less clan participation, fewer clans overall, and a less active clan system (and a less fair one at that if you're punishing the innocent parties left high and dry after multiple members leave their clan or quit participating, and add to that fewer clans since the severely punished ones will likely cease to exist altogether). I feel like I'm starting to sound like a broken record. I just haven't heard anyone explain why making clan life less fun for everyone is a good exchange for eliminating the rare case of one or more clans being awarded a surprise bye in one round or another of some event. In my mind, less participation has a far more negative impact on everyone than the current situation.


I'm not sure that ensuring clans actually finish what they start translates into "clan life less fun". I would in fact argue the opposite. We spend a lot of time researching and getting ready for competition, so TOFU dropping out may have been "at the right timing" but all the work we put into preparing for TOFU is wasted, and we wont get to face one top clan. That, if anything, translates into frustration and less fun. If the other 10 clans besides tofu and fall did the same, thats 10 clans leadership all wasting their time because tofu overcomitted / weren't able to recruit.

I get your situation, im not trying to belittle tofu. im giving an example of how it makes the competition as a whole less fun when somebody drops out. your suggestion of "occassionally someone dropping out" "punishes" people who aren't even in the same clan by wasting research time and others who just participating in the event in general. the suggestion of punishing clans who can't / dont follow thru, while might have a few "innocent" parties, at least is restricted to the clan thats originally causing the issues.

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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby eddie2 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:00 am

well i think this would be another thing to bend and twist.. and really this was all started because of tofu dropping out...

i think they done it at the correct time of the event it did not affect anybody but themselves but one or 2 members seem to be going guns down to get tofu punished for this...

these same people were all for allowing aoc empire to take part. when they decided to merge in the middle of play in stages this affected several clans why could they not wait till the end of the stage.


time did drop out of a event at a time but i was told to finish the games for time (even though i left the clan) and because i used aka players who were formally time players because time had dropped down to 10 players and 2 or 3 of them would not play together the final games were forfeited. i was then issued with a priv ban and not allowed to be a organizer for any wars for a time period.... this also left me uniterested in putting time and effort into wars.

so since this was times punishment then and did not cause anybody to say to harsh a punishment or to weak. i think this is the best way to do it...

if you drop out the 2 organizers named for the event cannot run wars for a set amount of time and are not allowed to be the contact for the next event.but only if it is done when it will affect the running of the event mid way through a war.. if the organizers have left the clan and the clans leaders do not finish the wars then they face the punishment
what ever games have still have to be completed (meaning games not created yet or joined by the clan) will go to the other clan and used in the f400...
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby chemefreak on Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:24 am

I thought we agreed like 20 posts ago that we would discuss adding a penalty to the next big event so that it is in the rules?
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby chapcrap on Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:55 pm

chemefreak wrote:I thought we agreed like 20 posts ago that we would discuss adding a penalty to the next big event so that it is in the rules?

No, that was never agreed on.

I think this should be discussed and decided ahead of time, because it should be an overarching rule for all events, not just a single event. In addition, you don't want to slow down an event by waiting to get the rules hashed out.
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby chemefreak on Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:12 pm

chapcrap wrote:
chemefreak wrote:I thought we agreed like 20 posts ago that we would discuss adding a penalty to the next big event so that it is in the rules?

No, that was never agreed on.

I think this should be discussed and decided ahead of time, because it should be an overarching rule for all events, not just a single event. In addition, you don't want to slow down an event by waiting to get the rules hashed out.


We have 6 months at least until the next major event starts.

So what we need is someone to track the various ideas. My recommendation is to update the OP with all the ideas so far. Then we can start weeding them out.

Actually, the first thing we should do is vote in CDF as to whether anyone wants a punishment/penalty.

***Edit - added a "straw poll" in CDF to get a general idea. Not binding, just curious at this point.
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby chapcrap on Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:43 am

Sounds good. I'll update the OP.
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby Doc_Brown on Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:57 am

chapcrap wrote:Sounds good. I'll update the OP.


chap,
Please add Foxy's suggestion to the OP: Ban a clan from participating in the next major event unless they have recruited enough new members to be able to fill game slots.
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby chapcrap on Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:28 am

Doc_Brown wrote:
chapcrap wrote:Sounds good. I'll update the OP.


chap,
Please add Foxy's suggestion to the OP: Ban a clan from participating in the next major event unless they have recruited enough new members to be able to fill game slots.

Done. I'm not going into great detail with the descriptions in the OP though. Just an outline.
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby chemefreak on Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:38 pm

Just to update everyone, I took a straw poll in CDF and it appears that a slim majority are in favor of some type of penalty/punishment for dropping a major clan event for any reason.

I have started another straw poll to see if CDF feels any such penalty/punishment should follow the Clan or the Clan AND its players.

I will let everyone know how that turns out too.
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby chapcrap on Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:55 pm

Thanks for the update.
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby Vid_FISO on Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:52 am

chemefreak wrote:Just to update everyone, I took a straw poll in CDF and it appears that a slim majority are in favor of some type of penalty/punishment for dropping a major clan event for any reason.

I have started another straw poll to see if CDF feels any such penalty/punishment should follow the Clan or the Clan AND its players.

I will let everyone know how that turns out too.


Nothing about individual responsibility?
If a clan member signs a clan up to an event without first consulting with the membership then surely only that individual should face any sanction?

If consultation has occurred and clan members have agreed to take part in a comp and have their names put forward to play for that clan in that comp and subsequently a number of them decide to leave the clan for another then the disruption is their responsibility and they should be sanctioned.

Clan members who leave CC or drop to fremium leaving a clan short of numbers for a myriad of reasons (often real life reasons) probably won't know or bother about sanctions and certainly anything heavy is unlikely to see them return to play/ premium any time soon, so a simple exclusion from any players list for several months should suffice.

Some clans have a lot of players signed up to them, is it not possible to loan a couple out for the duration of a competition to help any clan that is one or two players short of the required minimum due to whatever circumstances?
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby catnipdreams on Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:05 am

Vid_FISO wrote:Some clans have a lot of players signed up to them, is it not possible to loan a couple out for the duration of a competition to help any clan that is one or two players short of the required minimum due to whatever circumstances?

This is a VERY interesting idea! Something that helps us (the clan world) to play challenging games, in quantities that are ideal for each individual player, should be considered.
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby chapcrap on Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:23 am

catnipdreams wrote:
Vid_FISO wrote:Some clans have a lot of players signed up to them, is it not possible to loan a couple out for the duration of a competition to help any clan that is one or two players short of the required minimum due to whatever circumstances?

This is a VERY interesting idea! Something that helps us (the clan world) to play challenging games, in quantities that are ideal for each individual player, should be considered.

Agreed. It's a good discussion for another thread. But, I do not mind the idea of a clan trade system. It could be fun. :) But, I don't want to derail this thread with my thoughts about that.
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby Nicky15 on Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:25 pm

catnipdreams wrote:
Vid_FISO wrote:Some clans have a lot of players signed up to them, is it not possible to loan a couple out for the duration of a competition to help any clan that is one or two players short of the required minimum due to whatever circumstances?

This is a VERY interesting idea! Something that helps us (the clan world) to play challenging games, in quantities that are ideal for each individual player, should be considered.


It's interesting but unfortunately It would not be possible without breaking the one clan rule. A player must not play for two clans at once. So if they had any active clan games going they could not be loaned out until all the games for the original clan were completed. So in most cases this just would not be practical.
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby Vid_FISO on Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:28 pm

Nicky15 wrote:
catnipdreams wrote:
Vid_FISO wrote:Some clans have a lot of players signed up to them, is it not possible to loan a couple out for the duration of a competition to help any clan that is one or two players short of the required minimum due to whatever circumstances?

This is a VERY interesting idea! Something that helps us (the clan world) to play challenging games, in quantities that are ideal for each individual player, should be considered.


It's interesting but unfortunately It would not be possible without breaking the one clan rule. A player must not play for two clans at once. So if they had any active clan games going they could not be loaned out until all the games for the original clan were completed. So in most cases this just would not be practical.


Rules can be altered or amended, just needs a little willing to compromise.
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby Nicky15 on Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:35 pm

Vid_FISO wrote:
Nicky15 wrote:
catnipdreams wrote:
Vid_FISO wrote:Some clans have a lot of players signed up to them, is it not possible to loan a couple out for the duration of a competition to help any clan that is one or two players short of the required minimum due to whatever circumstances?

This is a VERY interesting idea! Something that helps us (the clan world) to play challenging games, in quantities that are ideal for each individual player, should be considered.


It's interesting but unfortunately It would not be possible without breaking the one clan rule. A player must not play for two clans at once. So if they had any active clan games going they could not be loaned out until all the games for the original clan were completed. So in most cases this just would not be practical.


Rules can be altered or amended, just needs a little willing to compromise.


No not the one clan rule unfortunately. That's a fundamental rule in the clan world. If there is a little notice, steps can be taken to finish up games quickly, there are ways around things. But like I said this wouldn't be practical in a lot of cases.
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby eddie2 on Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:49 pm

lol are tofu players in any active games can i borrow one or 2 of them for our set via kort
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby catnipdreams on Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:00 pm

I don't want to take away from this thread and be off-topic, but I don't know where else to put this post... I don't think I am the right person to campaign for a major change in the clan world, but I would love to have a continuing discussion on ways to make the clan world more interesting. I understand that there are issues with having certain highly skilled players popping in and out of different games in different wars between different clans. However, that doesn't mean that we can't mix it up in some constructive ways. For instance, I am a solid player, but I am not a superstar. I could easily see players at my level of competence being part of a pool, that could be used by any clan to fill games if there was a temporary glitch going on with a particular clan. Pool members would still have a "home" clan, that they played for, but if they had room for extra games, they could list their pool availability. Maybe have something where both clans involved in a war agreed to which players from the pool could be used, or how many, or something like that. I was thinking the pool would be comprised of solid team players, but, we could also have superstars in it as well, just that both sides perhaps got one superstar each? Anyway, some thoughts, and let's please continue this discussion elsewhere; we are here on this site for fun, and imo, this "mixing it up" could be really fun!!
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby chapcrap on Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:15 pm

catnipdreams wrote:I don't want to take away from this thread and be off-topic, but I don't know where else to put this post...

chapcrap wrote:It's a good discussion for another thread.

Make another thread.
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby Genoke on Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:46 pm

catnipdreams wrote:I don't want to take away from this thread and be off-topic, but I don't know where else to put this post... I don't think I am the right person to campaign for a major change in the clan world, but I would love to have a continuing discussion on ways to make the clan world more interesting. I understand that there are issues with having certain highly skilled players popping in and out of different games in different wars between different clans. However, that doesn't mean that we can't mix it up in some constructive ways. For instance, I am a solid player, but I am not a superstar. I could easily see players at my level of competence being part of a pool, that could be used by any clan to fill games if there was a temporary glitch going on with a particular clan. Pool members would still have a "home" clan, that they played for, but if they had room for extra games, they could list their pool availability. Maybe have something where both clans involved in a war agreed to which players from the pool could be used, or how many, or something like that. I was thinking the pool would be comprised of solid team players, but, we could also have superstars in it as well, just that both sides perhaps got one superstar each? Anyway, some thoughts, and let's please continue this discussion elsewhere; we are here on this site for fun, and imo, this "mixing it up" could be really fun!!

this must be thought over very well. with a straight structure and rules about it. Otherwise we creat a pool where clans can hire some players from (could made effects on the outcome of a clan war)
But if there would be a clan in trouble...and they can continue their tourney with having 1 or 2 more players...how can we solve that...players from clan 5 can join clan 32? I hope you see the difficulty...
Maybe create a pool from clanless people....? so they can hump in wherever needed?
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby Doc_Brown on Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:25 pm

Genoke wrote:
catnipdreams wrote:I don't want to take away from this thread and be off-topic, but I don't know where else to put this post... I don't think I am the right person to campaign for a major change in the clan world, but I would love to have a continuing discussion on ways to make the clan world more interesting. I understand that there are issues with having certain highly skilled players popping in and out of different games in different wars between different clans. However, that doesn't mean that we can't mix it up in some constructive ways. For instance, I am a solid player, but I am not a superstar. I could easily see players at my level of competence being part of a pool, that could be used by any clan to fill games if there was a temporary glitch going on with a particular clan. Pool members would still have a "home" clan, that they played for, but if they had room for extra games, they could list their pool availability. Maybe have something where both clans involved in a war agreed to which players from the pool could be used, or how many, or something like that. I was thinking the pool would be comprised of solid team players, but, we could also have superstars in it as well, just that both sides perhaps got one superstar each? Anyway, some thoughts, and let's please continue this discussion elsewhere; we are here on this site for fun, and imo, this "mixing it up" could be really fun!!

this must be thought over very well. with a straight structure and rules about it. Otherwise we creat a pool where clans can hire some players from (could made effects on the outcome of a clan war)
But if there would be a clan in trouble...and they can continue their tourney with having 1 or 2 more players...how can we solve that...players from clan 5 can join clan 32? I hope you see the difficulty...
Maybe create a pool from clanless people....? so they can hump in wherever needed?


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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:42 pm

With a great deal of personal info in our clan forum as well as a valuable insight into how we prepare for each challenge I find the notion of admitting 'part time' players from another clan to be quite preposterous, if I'm perfectly frank.

Also let's face it - if any clan were to loan out any of its members they would hardly be top drawer material and possibly unreliable. That then brings into the equation how they would be covered (i.e. by whom) and opens another can of worms when it comes to confidentiality contained in PMs with stored passwords belonging to members of a rival clan.

Nice idea, but really quite implausible.

Now a pool of mercenary players who are currently clanless - that would be something else entirely.
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Re: Dropping Major Clan Events

Postby eddie2 on Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:14 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:With a great deal of personal info in our clan forum as well as a valuable insight into how we prepare for each challenge I find the notion of admitting 'part time' players from another clan to be quite preposterous, if I'm perfectly frank.

Also let's face it - if any clan were to loan out any of its members they would hardly be top drawer material and possibly unreliable. That then brings into the equation how they would be covered (i.e. by whom) and opens another can of worms when it comes to confidentiality contained in PMs with stored passwords belonging to members of a rival clan.

Nice idea, but really quite implausible.

Now a pool of mercenary players who are currently clanless - that would be something else entirely.



got to agree with this....

look at the kort via aka war if i was to approach tofu and afos(over 60 players) and fielded there players via kort would that really be aka via kort ????
also there will be abuse when it comes down to map choices... clans look for other clans weak maps, so you put the time and effort into doing that they see the map and go to this pool of players to find someone who can play it. this will take a lot of fairness out of wars and might be fun for those who are in higher ranked clans with more players than games available but not for lower ranked ones whose players won't get games. this will also mess with the f400 rank board because clans using these players and winning wars will be getting points they do not deserve.
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