greenoaks wrote:ViperOverLord wrote:I think it's a mistake to minimize this debate to a matter of margins on the performance of potential CDs. The community as a whole that gets to vote for who represents them on important matters, gets respect out of the gate and that sets a proper tone.
Clans already get to vote on who represents them. thats the CDF.
CC gets to choose who represents them & they have delegated that role to the current CD leader.
This is truly an oversimplification. The CDs operate quite independently of admin upon oh so many issues. That's not to say that admin relinquishes any rights. But, the clan world tends to be on an island relative to admin. I'm sure somebody will have some technical cogs to throw into my argument; but there's no doubt in my mind that the CDs enjoy a great deal of autonomy.
TheMissionary wrote:ViperOverLord wrote:I've killed nothing. You tried to give a hypothetical of an elected volunteer doing worse than an appointed volunteer. And I really don't get your point. I believe that the clan leaders are more than capable of selecting adequate CDs. Hence, my point that there's no need to focus upon the "margins."
And whether elected or appointed, CDs will still be volunteers. Elected CDs will not have less dedication. And if they're bad, then that's the beauty of the system. We can replace them. If a CD is bad now, we have no such recourse.
"Edit: Is someone appointed to a position really going to put in as much effort per-say, as a person who is willing to give up their own time willingly?" WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. ARE YOU DRUNK? An appointed person gives up their time willingly. An elected person gives up their time willingly. You keep going off the rails like that. So, time for me to take a break.
Elected people are usually nominated. If we can't get rid of the CDs now, what makes you so sure that we would be able to get rid of elected CDs? Wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose of your process? Basically what killed your argument, is the fact that you are willing to take an opportunity from a new set of volunteers, and place that in the hands of elected/nominated people.
As for being drunk, I have been up for almost 24 hours. Does that make you wonder, how I can still see the fallacies you bring to your arguments?
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Well, let's just say that you were up for nearly 24 hours explains some of your incoherent statements/questions as well as some inconsistencies. Contrary to your claim, I've not fallaciously spoken to any significant degree though.
As for 'being sure' of 'getting rid of elected CDs;' you haven't listed a clear premise for such a matter. I've pointed out that if the clan community decides, then they take ownership of their system. I haven't argued for 'getting rid' of anyone (other than to state that the community would have power to vote out a CD). I've stated that clans will have the power to choose who they feel will serve the community.
Well stated. I was thinking of addressing it from the point of view that none of the current cd's are in top 5 clans (With ace unranked, osa 9th & legion 25th, or coaches poll 10th/12th/unranked respectively) but your perspective was a trifle different. Although I did think it may have been somewhat weighted with a reference on masli, but non on jpcloet/alt1978/shaneback as other previous cd's that were also not up there.
However, I think the point I really wanted to address was the fashion in which he was throwing about aspersions like 'elitist' & 'inner circle' when referencing the CD. I was hoping to perhaps tackle any misapprehensions he may have been under in perhaps somehow assuming great conspiracies exist when nothing could be further from the truth.
Nonetheless, it was something I deliberately sought to encourage with the most recent callout, to have a frank look at prospective candidates from new & lower ranked clans. Unfortunately, such a search is also hindered by the fact that they don't always have the skills & experience of the clan world to ably assist. So while it is important to increase our independence & build confidence from amongst clans & other stakeholders, I also think that the CD's are also here to perform a bureaucratic role in performing our roles & responsibilities.
That being said, I think quite a few candidates who fulfill those requirements made our shortlist, and were viable prospects to meet our needs.
Anyway, I'll be opening a discussion in CDF on this topic, as Vipers vigorous campaigning has not gone unheard!
A quick point, BW was the head CD of the number one ranked clan during the time of the CC4 madness and Empire was something like top 3ish before the split. Most definitely, the CDs have recently been representative of a top clan class.
But, I think I should clarify that I don't want to be on a crusade against top clans (I hope to have a top clan someday). Nor do I want appear to even be for quotas of CDs based upon rankings. In theory, five CD from top five clans could work out just fine. My point though, has been that that there did seem to be some significant insider improprieties during CC4 and there was a strong element of it going in favor of the higher ranked clans in general while many mid ranked and lower ranked clans felt disenfranchised. I feel like elections is the best way to keep CDs a bit more honest and transparent and to keep all of the clans a bit more engaged.
And Leehar; I could dig-up the comments. Elitist and inner circle are perfect words and are not merely aspersions, despite your attempt wave it away with your magic wand when you say "nothing could be further from the truth." When we were having the CC4 discussions and the vote was canceled; we were hit with a wave of alleged objections from the top clans that the CDs represented through an intermediary fashion. They did not even have be a part of the discussion on the boards. They just had to work through you guys behind the scene and that was patently clear. Also, CDs even went so far as to state that of course higher ranked clans should have more clout regarding decisions. So, don't pretend that elitism is not prevalent because it most certainly is.
As for your general objections to current lower ranked clan candidates, they seem to be not specifically listed. Experience? What do you mean exactly? I would assume that most candidates don't exactly have spot-on experience and are attempting to be CDs for the first time. Skills? What skills exactly do you require? This is really all a tangent to my overarching call for elections though. It could be that the community could have the same concerns during an election process and that lower ranked clans would not gain the representation. But, really the ranking element is being overplayed anyhow. Again, it's about building trust, not meeting artificial quotas.