TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:26 pm

Keefie wrote:^ +1

Great post Shannon =D>


I'll note that you were among those complaining about the insider politics. But, when someone tries to come up with a system, you ultimately uphold the status quo. That's fine. Do nothing now. But, if you don't want real change, then your complaints ring hollow.

Shannon Apple wrote:Having any kind of election for positions of responsiblity on a forum site is a no no. People are going to vote for their friends and clanmates. There is pressure on people to vote for their friends in any kind of popularity contest. That's what it WILL turn into, I'm sorry... a popularity contest. What accompanies every forum popularity contest? Yes, you've guessed it, drama, and lots of it.


Except, that it's not a no, no. And I'm very familiar with people's tribal nature during argument. That seems to be the constant de-evolution that I face when I bring up ideas to change the system. But, if the vote is constricted to one clan, one vote in the CDF then that's a limited concern. I think that clan leaders in general want the best man for the job; or at least someone who they feel can perform the job adequately. At the very least, that's going to be an over-riding concern.

Shannon Apple wrote:A team needs to gel in order to work together. They need to be unbiased people who are active and willing to spend their time doing stuff for the site. That's why, under the current system, people who spend a lot of time and show themselves to be unbiased and don't cause trouble are picked. Some of you hate the current CDs because you disagreed with some of their past decisions. Having elected CDs will only pose greater problems. People will be railroaded into doing the bidding of their own clans and shit like that. I see so much wrong with it.


An elected team can gel just fine. And there's no such thing as an unbiased person. And it's ignorant to pretend that this is about 'hating a CD.' But what's sadder is that you make these careless accusations and two people immediately applaud the hell out of your post. Also, I'm not sure how elections all of the sudden lead to being railroaded? Nor how an appointed CD is somehow no less susceptible to being railroaded. That's definitely more faulty logic.

Shannon Apple wrote:Some of you who are for elections have never worked on any kind of team online, so you have no idea how things work from the backend. It is a very different ball game when you are on the other side of the fence tying to please everyone but knowing full well that whatever decision you make is going to end up with one side in that particular scuffle being butthurt. Electing people will not make clan people nicer. You lot are ruthless and unforgiving of the staff who do so much for CC. Although, I speak of probably a handful of people when I say that.


That's your assumption that people who are for elections are somehow less enlightened than yourself. And the point of elections isn't just to find a team that you think works oh so perfectly together. Competing visions is not a bad thing. In fact, they foster debate among the clans.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby Shannon Apple on Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:50 pm

I have learned from experience not to get into an argument with you Viper, so I won't. tl:dr

Everything in my post stands. It was not a whimsical speech. I was speaking purely from what is almost 10 years of experience working as site staff across a few different sites, my current one being for the past 5 years.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby VioIet on Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:57 pm

Leehar wrote:
Anyway, I'll be opening a discussion in CDF on this topic, as Vipers vigorous campaigning has not gone unheard!


I think that is a great idea, and a class act from Leehar. More clan reps may participate in the CDF thread than here.

You did well Viper! I guess you can ignore what I said in my prior post. You have taken the initiative for discussion and bringing about change.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:00 pm

VioIet wrote:I remember about two years ago, people were really upset about peantusdad (who I think was an outstanding leader, btw) being appointed instead of nominated in. I don't know all the details, so please excuse my ignorance on the subject matter. I don't even know for sure what position it was, I just remember many people saying that there should have been a voting process. I was extremely new to the clan scene at the time, and I didn't follow it closely. I just remember there being a lot of uproar about it, and after enough time, someone did step up and make a voting poll of some sort. Interestingly, I think people voted in peanutsdad anyway. In fact, I think it was unanimous. I think people were just more concerned with having some sort of say in things, maybe more so than who was in that position.

Once he had to step down, a long time later, we all voted/nominated again, but as time went on, the idea seem to fade away. I've never heard it mentioned again since then.


Exactly, Violet. If we were starting the clan system from scratch, people would want voting to ensure fairness. But, once things get established and someone brings up the idea of voting, then those same people claim the idea is preposterous cos they're weary about losing whatever power they've brokered and losing their big piece of the pie. It's sad; but that truly does seem to be the reality.

VioIet wrote:But the reason I brought that up is that when you have enough people who strongly feel a certain way and want to take action, them something will be done. Numbers bring power.

Viper, if we're the only two people (posting) who feel that some type of voting system would be more fair, then, well, I don't think we're going to get very far.


Agreed. And despite my bold objections to various arguments; I do think that perhaps ultimately it will be a lost cause without a critical mass. It is sad that so many people were willing to scream at the top of their lungs during perceived injustices. But, those same people don't seem to be here now during more tranquil times. I reckon that's human nature to shout at problems one day and then not want to do the work to fix the system the next day. But, then again, at least some of those objectors may not even be aware of this discussion.

I'll ultimately be relatively fine with whatever the community decides. But, I want to fight for a great cause now and if it fails then such is life.

VioIet wrote:It's a good skill to know when to keep fighting a battle and when to just hang it up. Or not necessarily hang it up, but maybe try to figure a different way to go about it.

I mean, I think a voting system sounds perfectly reasonable. But if many people don't feel that way, then oh well, I guess.


LOL - Not my best skill for sure.

And voting is perfectly reasonable; which makes it utterly pathetic that so many posters pretend the idea is preposterous.

I've fought the fight for transparency and inclusion. But, it would seem that there's too much apathy at this point. And when the next round of chaos starts, I'll understand why and I'll hopefully spin my wheels a little less or not at all.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:05 pm

Shannon Apple wrote:I have learned from experience not to get into an argument with you Viper, so I won't. tl:dr

Everything in my post stands. It was not a whimsical speech. I was speaking purely from what is almost 10 years of experience working as site staff across a few different sites, my current one being for the past 5 years.

You have no idea what you are talking about.


So, you basically want to take pot shots and then not defend the counter, except to take more pot shots and state that you won't be engaging in rational discussion. Got it. As for the tl;dr - my responses were equal in brevity to your original arguments. But, such a response is on par with the rest of your failed logic.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby VioIet on Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:08 pm

ViperOverLord wrote: But, if the vote is constricted to one clan, one vote in the CDF then that's a limited concern. I think that clan leaders in general want the best man for the job; or at least someone who they feel can perform the job adequately. At the very least, that's going to be an over-riding concern.


I actually think this is a really good idea! One vote per clan.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby Lindax on Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:14 pm

ViperOverLord wrote:It is sad that so many people were willing to scream at the top of their lungs during perceived injustices. I reckon that's human nature to shout at problems one day and then not want to do the work to fix the system the next day.


Is that why you didn't apply for a CD position?

Lx
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby Night Strike on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:18 pm

Many times, Team CC positions are filled based on a specific need, especially in task-oriented groups such as TDs, CDs, and Cartos. Viper, how would your elections fill those specific roles with people who have the skills necessary for those tasks? Furthermore, what happens when the entire group is replaced in the same election? Are the current-now-former CDs required to train all the new CDs and then just leave? What if those people who were elected have a poor record on CC and wouldn't get the required approval from other Department Leaders? Are the rest of the members of Team CC just forced to work with people who can't be worked with?

And having a power-hungry mod is fairly rare, and it is possible to get those mods removed. I know of a few that have been. And finding good mods can be hit-and-miss even with the application process. I wouldn't be surprised if an election process makes that even harder. When I add new TDs, I'm happy if 50% of our new hires turn into long-term and reliable TDs. Some people just don't work out for a myriad of reasons (burnout, personal life changes, poor task assignment, etc.), no matter how great of an applicant they are or how eager they are to help.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby Bruceswar on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:41 pm

Night Strike wrote:Many times, Team CC positions are filled based on a specific need, especially in task-oriented groups such as TDs, CDs, and Cartos. Viper, how would your elections fill those specific roles with people who have the skills necessary for those tasks? Furthermore, what happens when the entire group is replaced in the same election? Are the current-now-former CDs required to train all the new CDs and then just leave? What if those people who were elected have a poor record on CC and wouldn't get the required approval from other Department Leaders? Are the rest of the members of Team CC just forced to work with people who can't be worked with?

And having a power-hungry mod is fairly rare, and it is possible to get those mods removed. I know of a few that have been. And finding good mods can be hit-and-miss even with the application process. I wouldn't be surprised if an election process makes that even harder. When I add new TDs, I'm happy if 50% of our new hires turn into long-term and reliable TDs. Some people just don't work out for a myriad of reasons (burnout, personal life changes, poor task assignment, etc.), no matter how great of an applicant they are or how eager they are to help.



+1 You said it so well. This is just a bad bad bad idea that needs to be scraped.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:44 pm

Night Strike wrote:Many times, Team CC positions are filled based on a specific need, especially in task-oriented groups such as TDs, CDs, and Cartos. Viper, how would your elections fill those specific roles with people who have the skills necessary for those tasks? Furthermore, what happens when the entire group is replaced in the same election? Are the current-now-former CDs required to train all the new CDs and then just leave? What if those people who were elected have a poor record on CC and wouldn't get the required approval from other Department Leaders? Are the rest of the members of Team CC just forced to work with people who can't be worked with?

And having a power-hungry mod is fairly rare, and it is possible to get those mods removed. I know of a few that have been. And finding good mods can be hit-and-miss even with the application process. I wouldn't be surprised if an election process makes that even harder. When I add new TDs, I'm happy if 50% of our new hires turn into long-term and reliable TDs. Some people just don't work out for a myriad of reasons (burnout, personal life changes, poor task assignment, etc.), no matter how great of an applicant they are or how eager they are to help.


I'm not stumping for TD's to be elected; though truthfully, I wouldn't see a problem with it. Elections for cartos wouldn't make sense to me as that is a very advanced skill set. I am stumping for CD elections because the CDs have become power brokers within the clan world. That being the case, I think it is important for the clan world to have greater say in who administers the system.

You could stagger CD elections if a full turnover was a big enough concern.

If someone is elected, then why would they have a 'poor record.' That doesn't make much sense to me; nor do I even know how you define a poor record.

If a Team CC member doesn't want to work with another CC member that is his or her problem and imo he/she should resign. I question why you would want someone in power who is potentially so averse to people who are voted to serve by their own peers. And if that exists, then that only speaks to the elitism I speak of, that should not be catered to.

The other problems you speak of are problems that will exist irrespective of the selection process.

Lindax wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:It is sad that so many people were willing to scream at the top of their lungs during perceived injustices. I reckon that's human nature to shout at problems one day and then not want to do the work to fix the system the next day.


Is that why you didn't apply for a CD position?

Lx


So, you ask me publicly if I applied for the CD position. I answer you in good faith that I believe it would have been an exercise in futility (but that I had recruited members of my own clan to fulfill the position), and yet you still elect to take this cheap shot? I guess if that's how you want to operate.
Last edited by ViperOverLord on Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:58 pm

angola wrote:Let's hold a straw poll about whether or not the community wants Viper elected as a CD.

I'll vote first: No.


This is the problem with the system as it stands. There are a bunch of entitled members who think its okay to personally diminish well intentioned people who dare to seek positive changes in the system.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby Bruceswar on Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:22 pm

ViperOverLord wrote:
angola wrote:Let's hold a straw poll about whether or not the community wants Viper elected as a CD.

I'll vote first: No.


This is the problem with the system as it stands. There are a bunch of entitled members who think its okay to personally diminish well intentioned people who dare to seek positive changes in the system.



You do not understand clearly. Nobody is entitled. Everybody has good ideas and such. Just because someone cannot get on team X or Y does not make the people who are there now bad. Think about your clan for a second. If someone is applying who might be a good player and have some fresh ideas, but he does not mesh with many in the clan are you going to bring him in? I think not.

To be a TD, CD, Carto or any other mod, you need 3 things.

1. a Skill set of some sort.
2. Lots of extra time to donate to mod duties.
3. A very thick skin to not get ruffled when things get heated.


Many people fail at one of the 3.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby angola on Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:25 pm

ViperOverLord wrote:
angola wrote:Let's hold a straw poll about whether or not the community wants Viper elected as a CD.

I'll vote first: No.


This is the problem with the system as it stands. There are a bunch of entitled members who think its okay to personally diminish well intentioned people who dare to seek positive changes in the system.


Well, it was a joke. But I don't think you seek to bring positive changes to the system. I think you just like to "hear" yourself talk.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby chapcrap on Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:32 am

Leehar, you're right about me leaving out some CD's. I couldn't remember everyone. I did remember jpcloet, but that was a long time ago, so was trying to remember more recent history.

I don't think VOL is being out of line or is misintentioned. He's just trying to think of a way that the clan world can have a little more...stability? transparency?

I'm not sure I agree with electing CD's, because of the obstacles that it can present, but maybe it could be a situation where the current CD's choose the new CD's and then they must be approved by a majority vote in the CDF. Something more similar to how judges are appointed and approved.

I don't have strong feelings either way, but I do think that part of what VOL is presenting has some merit.
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