TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby TheMissionary on Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:12 am

ViperOverLord wrote:
TheMissionary wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:
TheMissionary wrote:You can't please all the people, all the time, but you can please some of the people, some of the time.


If you setup the system to be as fair as possible from the outset; then the inevitable problems are minimized later. Systems without proper rigors are destined for chaos. So, frankly, I find your well intentioned rhetoric to be apathetic and misguided.


This is what this debate is over isn't it? We have a handful of people, within the masses, who feel they are discriminated against by a so called "inner circle". Therefore they want an election of 'power' (which in reality is delegated to volunteers), to be distributed to people who could potentially be of the same resolve. Makes sense to you I guess, but I'm not sure I can understand your logic.


Why would you assume that whoever is delegated and whoever is elected would be of the same caliber? And frankly, even if they are the same, better, or worse; at least the clans get their equal say. That's all I can rightfully ask for in anything. Personally, though, I think it's a mistake to minimize this debate to a matter of margins on the performance of potential CDs. The community as a whole that gets to vote for who represents them on important matters, gets respect out of the gate.


I believe that just killed your own argument. You are taking the margins of performance away from people who are trying to volunteer, for an elected group who may, or may not have, the same dedication to providing a solid effort to the community.

Edit: Is someone appointed to a position really going to put in as much effort per-say, as a person who is willing to give up their own time willingly?
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:22 am

TheMissionary wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:
TheMissionary wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:
TheMissionary wrote:You can't please all the people, all the time, but you can please some of the people, some of the time.


If you setup the system to be as fair as possible from the outset; then the inevitable problems are minimized later. Systems without proper rigors are destined for chaos. So, frankly, I find your well intentioned rhetoric to be apathetic and misguided.


This is what this debate is over isn't it? We have a handful of people, within the masses, who feel they are discriminated against by a so called "inner circle". Therefore they want an election of 'power' (which in reality is delegated to volunteers), to be distributed to people who could potentially be of the same resolve. Makes sense to you I guess, but I'm not sure I can understand your logic.


Why would you assume that whoever is delegated and whoever is elected would be of the same caliber? And frankly, even if they are the same, better, or worse; at least the clans get their equal say. That's all I can rightfully ask for in anything. Personally, though, I think it's a mistake to minimize this debate to a matter of margins on the performance of potential CDs. The community as a whole that gets to vote for who represents them on important matters, gets respect out of the gate.


I believe that just killed your own argument. You are taking the margins of performance away from people who are trying to volunteer, for an elected group who may, or may not have, the same dedication to providing a solid effort to the community.

Edit: Is someone appointed to a position really going to put in as much effort per-say, as a person who is willing to give up their own time willingly?


I've killed nothing. You tried to give a hypothetical of an elected volunteer doing worse than an appointed volunteer. And I really don't get your point. I believe that the clan leaders are more than capable of selecting adequate CDs. Hence, my point that there's no need to focus upon the "margins."

And whether elected or appointed, CDs will still be volunteers. Elected CDs will not have less dedication. And if they're bad, then that's the beauty of the system. We can replace them. If a CD is bad now, we have no such recourse.

"Edit: Is someone appointed to a position really going to put in as much effort per-say, as a person who is willing to give up their own time willingly?" WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. ARE YOU DRUNK? An appointed person gives up their time willingly. An elected person gives up their time willingly. You keep going off the rails like that. So, time for me to take a break.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby TheMissionary on Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:29 am

ViperOverLord wrote:I've killed nothing. You tried to give a hypothetical of an elected volunteer doing worse than an appointed volunteer. And I really don't get your point. I believe that the clan leaders are more than capable of selecting adequate CDs. Hence, my point that there's no need to focus upon the "margins."

And whether elected or appointed, CDs will still be volunteers. Elected CDs will not have less dedication. And if they're bad, then that's the beauty of the system. We can replace them. If a CD is bad now, we have no such recourse.

"Edit: Is someone appointed to a position really going to put in as much effort per-say, as a person who is willing to give up their own time willingly?" WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. ARE YOU DRUNK? An appointed person gives up their time willingly. An elected person gives up their time willingly. You keep going off the rails like that. So, time for me to take a break.


Elected people are usually nominated. If we can't get rid of the CDs now, what makes you so sure that we would be able to get rid of elected CDs? Wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose of your process? Basically what killed your argument, is the fact that you are willing to take an opportunity from a new set of volunteers, and place that in the hands of elected/nominated people.

As for being drunk, I have been up for almost 24 hours. Does that make you wonder, how I can still see the fallacies you bring to your arguments?

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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby greenoaks on Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:00 am

ViperOverLord wrote:I think it's a mistake to minimize this debate to a matter of margins on the performance of potential CDs. The community as a whole that gets to vote for who represents them on important matters, gets respect out of the gate and that sets a proper tone.

Clans already get to vote on who represents them. thats the CDF.

CC gets to choose who represents them & they have delegated that role to the current CD leader.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby TheMissionary on Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:07 am

greenoaks wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:I think it's a mistake to minimize this debate to a matter of margins on the performance of potential CDs. The community as a whole that gets to vote for who represents them on important matters, gets respect out of the gate and that sets a proper tone.

Clans already get to vote on who represents them. thats the CDF.

CC gets to choose who represents them & they have delegated that role to the current CD leader.


I think he knows this, as it has been rebutted in every argument he makes. It's beginning to sound like a broken record.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby greenoaks on Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:45 am

TheMissionary wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:I think it's a mistake to minimize this debate to a matter of margins on the performance of potential CDs. The community as a whole that gets to vote for who represents them on important matters, gets respect out of the gate and that sets a proper tone.

Clans already get to vote on who represents them. thats the CDF.

CC gets to choose who represents them & they have delegated that role to the current CD leader.


I think he knows this, as it has been rebutted in every argument he makes. It's beginning to sound like a broken record.

he's being saying clans should be able to elect someone to represent them. i just thought i better point out the obvious that they already do.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby BoganGod on Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:41 am

VOL have you considered that every person that posts here that does not agree with you may well be agents of the illuminati?

Seriously......

You have waffled, repeated yourself and disagreed with all comers. Been fun I'm sure.

Could you please address my concern about universal voting. If not everyone votes, then the vote is not representative of the community, it is only representative of those that vote. Those that vote will be those that are more involved in the "political" forum side of CC, and are more likely to have had conflict and personality issues with others due to their interest in social discourse and championing ideas rather than playing games(supposedly what we are all here for).

I'm not sure whether your aware that Australia has a compulsory voting system. All those that are registered to vote(citizens over the age of 18) must vote or they are fined. I and many others have ethical concerns about forced democracy. However it does make the work of pollsters a lot easier as pretty much every person they talk to will be voting. A majority government is elected by a majority of the people. Not like the american system when a government and head of state are elected by the majority of voters, which are not anywhere near the majority of the people. Apathy is a choice that americans are allowed to exercise and Australians are denied.

Am going out on a limb here and crediting you with the intelligience to assimilate the facts and ideas I've presented above.

So back to my question(I've asked this twice before in this thread) VOL how is voting representative of the collective will of clan members, if voting is not compulsory?
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby Leehar on Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:38 am

chapcrap wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:
Leehar wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:instead of an elite group of people


I think it was asked earlier, but what exactly defines us as elite Viper?


Instead of digging in the dirt, which is what you presumably want to do with this question; how about you actually give your position on elections?

I think that what Viper may have been referencing was the presumed fact that a lot of CD's have come from higher ranked clans.

I remember this being discussed in some other thread previously. Some people might want a little CD love from the lower ranked clans.


Well stated. I was thinking of addressing it from the point of view that none of the current cd's are in top 5 clans (With ace unranked, osa 9th & legion 25th, or coaches poll 10th/12th/unranked respectively) but your perspective was a trifle different. Although I did think it may have been somewhat weighted with a reference on masli, but non on jpcloet/alt1978/shaneback as other previous cd's that were also not up there.
However, I think the point I really wanted to address was the fashion in which he was throwing about aspersions like 'elitist' & 'inner circle' when referencing the CD. I was hoping to perhaps tackle any misapprehensions he may have been under in perhaps somehow assuming great conspiracies exist when nothing could be further from the truth.


Nonetheless, it was something I deliberately sought to encourage with the most recent callout, to have a frank look at prospective candidates from new & lower ranked clans. Unfortunately, such a search is also hindered by the fact that they don't always have the skills & experience of the clan world to ably assist. So while it is important to increase our independence & build confidence from amongst clans & other stakeholders, I also think that the CD's are also here to perform a bureaucratic role in performing our roles & responsibilities.
That being said, I think quite a few candidates who fulfill those requirements made our shortlist, and were viable prospects to meet our needs.


Anyway, I'll be opening a discussion in CDF on this topic, as Vipers vigorous campaigning has not gone unheard!
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby Masli on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:05 am

However, when I joined the cd team, kort wasn't a top 5 clan...
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby VioIet on Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:37 pm

TheMissionary wrote:
Edit: Is someone appointed to a position really going to put in as much effort per-say, as a person who is willing to give up their own time willingly?


I completely see your point here. But that's why in the scenarios/examples that I gave, someone would have to accept the nomination and be interviewed to say why they want the job and how they hope to improve things or make things run smooth, and so forth. They'd have to really want the huge responsibilities of the position.

I think the only way some type of voting system would take place is if the majority of people here were adamant about it.

I remember about two years ago, people were really upset about peantusdad (who I think was an outstanding leader, btw) being appointed instead of nominated in. I don't know all the details, so please excuse my ignorance on the subject matter. I don't even know for sure what position it was, I just remember many people saying that there should have been a voting process. I was extremely new to the clan scene at the time, and I didn't follow it closely. I just remember there being a lot of uproar about it, and after enough time, someone did step up and make a voting poll of some sort. Interestingly, I think people voted in peanutsdad anyway. In fact, I think it was unanimous. I think people were just more concerned with having some sort of say in things, maybe more so than who was in that position.

Once he had to step down, a long time later, we all voted/nominated again, but as time went on, the idea seem to fade away. I've never heard it mentioned again since then.

But the reason I brought that up is that when you have enough people who strongly feel a certain way and want to take action, them something will be done. Numbers bring power.

Viper, if we're the only two people (posting) who feel that some type of voting system would be more fair, then, well, I don't think we're going to get very far.

I think it's fantastic that you always want to stand up for what you believe in and for what you feel is right. I am the exact same way, so I COMPLETELY understand how you feel. Believe me, I do. But sometimes it's also best to know when we've been.....oh I don't want to use the word "defeated," but basically, something like that. But if most are happy with the way it is now, then we just have to let it be.

It's a good skill to know when to keep fighting a battle and when to just hang it up. Or not necessarily hang it up, but maybe try to figure a different way to go about it.

I mean, I think a voting system sounds perfectly reasonable. But if many people don't feel that way, then oh well, I guess.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:49 pm

greenoaks wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:I think it's a mistake to minimize this debate to a matter of margins on the performance of potential CDs. The community as a whole that gets to vote for who represents them on important matters, gets respect out of the gate and that sets a proper tone.

Clans already get to vote on who represents them. thats the CDF.

CC gets to choose who represents them & they have delegated that role to the current CD leader.


This is truly an oversimplification. The CDs operate quite independently of admin upon oh so many issues. That's not to say that admin relinquishes any rights. But, the clan world tends to be on an island relative to admin. I'm sure somebody will have some technical cogs to throw into my argument; but there's no doubt in my mind that the CDs enjoy a great deal of autonomy.

TheMissionary wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:I've killed nothing. You tried to give a hypothetical of an elected volunteer doing worse than an appointed volunteer. And I really don't get your point. I believe that the clan leaders are more than capable of selecting adequate CDs. Hence, my point that there's no need to focus upon the "margins."

And whether elected or appointed, CDs will still be volunteers. Elected CDs will not have less dedication. And if they're bad, then that's the beauty of the system. We can replace them. If a CD is bad now, we have no such recourse.

"Edit: Is someone appointed to a position really going to put in as much effort per-say, as a person who is willing to give up their own time willingly?" WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. ARE YOU DRUNK? An appointed person gives up their time willingly. An elected person gives up their time willingly. You keep going off the rails like that. So, time for me to take a break.


Elected people are usually nominated. If we can't get rid of the CDs now, what makes you so sure that we would be able to get rid of elected CDs? Wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose of your process? Basically what killed your argument, is the fact that you are willing to take an opportunity from a new set of volunteers, and place that in the hands of elected/nominated people.

As for being drunk, I have been up for almost 24 hours. Does that make you wonder, how I can still see the fallacies you bring to your arguments?

"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein


Well, let's just say that you were up for nearly 24 hours explains some of your incoherent statements/questions as well as some inconsistencies. Contrary to your claim, I've not fallaciously spoken to any significant degree though.

As for 'being sure' of 'getting rid of elected CDs;' you haven't listed a clear premise for such a matter. I've pointed out that if the clan community decides, then they take ownership of their system. I haven't argued for 'getting rid' of anyone (other than to state that the community would have power to vote out a CD). I've stated that clans will have the power to choose who they feel will serve the community.

Leehar wrote:
Well stated. I was thinking of addressing it from the point of view that none of the current cd's are in top 5 clans (With ace unranked, osa 9th & legion 25th, or coaches poll 10th/12th/unranked respectively) but your perspective was a trifle different. Although I did think it may have been somewhat weighted with a reference on masli, but non on jpcloet/alt1978/shaneback as other previous cd's that were also not up there.
However, I think the point I really wanted to address was the fashion in which he was throwing about aspersions like 'elitist' & 'inner circle' when referencing the CD. I was hoping to perhaps tackle any misapprehensions he may have been under in perhaps somehow assuming great conspiracies exist when nothing could be further from the truth.

Nonetheless, it was something I deliberately sought to encourage with the most recent callout, to have a frank look at prospective candidates from new & lower ranked clans. Unfortunately, such a search is also hindered by the fact that they don't always have the skills & experience of the clan world to ably assist. So while it is important to increase our independence & build confidence from amongst clans & other stakeholders, I also think that the CD's are also here to perform a bureaucratic role in performing our roles & responsibilities.
That being said, I think quite a few candidates who fulfill those requirements made our shortlist, and were viable prospects to meet our needs.

Anyway, I'll be opening a discussion in CDF on this topic, as Vipers vigorous campaigning has not gone unheard!


A quick point, BW was the head CD of the number one ranked clan during the time of the CC4 madness and Empire was something like top 3ish before the split. Most definitely, the CDs have recently been representative of a top clan class.

But, I think I should clarify that I don't want to be on a crusade against top clans (I hope to have a top clan someday). Nor do I want appear to even be for quotas of CDs based upon rankings. In theory, five CD from top five clans could work out just fine. My point though, has been that that there did seem to be some significant insider improprieties during CC4 and there was a strong element of it going in favor of the higher ranked clans in general while many mid ranked and lower ranked clans felt disenfranchised. I feel like elections is the best way to keep CDs a bit more honest and transparent and to keep all of the clans a bit more engaged.

And Leehar; I could dig-up the comments. Elitist and inner circle are perfect words and are not merely aspersions, despite your attempt wave it away with your magic wand when you say "nothing could be further from the truth." When we were having the CC4 discussions and the vote was canceled; we were hit with a wave of alleged objections from the top clans that the CDs represented through an intermediary fashion. They did not even have be a part of the discussion on the boards. They just had to work through you guys behind the scene and that was patently clear. Also, CDs even went so far as to state that of course higher ranked clans should have more clout regarding decisions. So, don't pretend that elitism is not prevalent because it most certainly is.

As for your general objections to current lower ranked clan candidates, they seem to be not specifically listed. Experience? What do you mean exactly? I would assume that most candidates don't exactly have spot-on experience and are attempting to be CDs for the first time. Skills? What skills exactly do you require? This is really all a tangent to my overarching call for elections though. It could be that the community could have the same concerns during an election process and that lower ranked clans would not gain the representation. But, really the ranking element is being overplayed anyhow. Again, it's about building trust, not meeting artificial quotas.
Last edited by ViperOverLord on Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby Gilligan on Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:59 pm

tl;dr
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby Shannon Apple on Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:11 pm

Well, I have been reading this whole argument and facepalming. (I did skip a bunch of repetitive essays though)

As a person who has been on a small team of supermoderators running a pretty active site, i will say that any form of forum elections is a BAD BAD BAD idea. People who are nominated by the current site team on any site are usually the right people for the job. Yes of course there is the odd chance that they can get it wrong, but that comes with being human.

Having any kind of election for positions of responsiblity on a forum site is a no no. People are going to vote for their friends and clanmates. There is pressure on people to vote for their friends in any kind of popularity contest. That's what it WILL turn into, I'm sorry... a popularity contest. What accompanies every forum popularity contest? Yes, you've guessed it, drama, and lots of it.

A team needs to gel in order to work together. They need to be unbiased people who are active and willing to spend their time doing stuff for the site. That's why, under the current system, people who spend a lot of time and show themselves to be unbiased and don't cause trouble are picked. Some of you hate the current CDs because you disagreed with some of their past decisions. Having elected CDs will only pose greater problems. People will be railroaded into doing the bidding of their own clans and shit like that. I see so much wrong with it.

Some of you who are for elections have never worked on any kind of team online, so you have no idea how things work from the backend. It is a very different ball game when you are on the other side of the fence tying to please everyone but knowing full well that whatever decision you make is going to end up with one side in that particular scuffle being butthurt. Electing people will not make clan people nicer. You lot are ruthless and unforgiving of the staff who do so much for CC. Although, I speak of probably a handful of people when I say that.

I wouldn't take this position if I was paid because I know I wouldn't be able to please everyone. Never before have I seen it on a site that a group of people can attack volunteers so harshly and ruthlessly, and get away with it.
Last edited by Shannon Apple on Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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18:19:01 ‹#1_stunna› Pixar is the only noob that would leave Kort
18:20:39 ‹*Pixar*› thats a new sig!
18:20:51 ‹*Pixar*› "only player to leave kort"
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby Keefie on Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:14 pm

^ +1

Great post Shannon =D>
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby TheMissionary on Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:17 pm

Shannon Apple wrote:Well, I have been reading this whole argument and facepalming. (I did skip a bunch of repetitive essays though)

As a person who has been on a small team of supermoderators running a pretty active site, i will say that any form of forum elections is a BAD BAD BAD idea. People who are nominated by the current site team on any site are usually the right people for the job. Yes of course there is the odd chance that they can get it wrong, but that comes with being human.

Having any kind of election for positions of responsiblity on a forum site is a no no. People are going to vote for their friends and clanmates. There is pressure on people to vote for their friends in any kind of popularity contest. That's what it WILL turn into, I'm sorry... a popularity contest. What accompanies every forum popularity contest? Yes, you've guessed it, drama, and lots of it.

A team needs to gel in order to work together. They need to be unbiased people who are active and willing to spend their time doing stuff for the site. That's why, under the current system, people who spend a lot of time and show themselves to be unbiased and don't cause trouble are picked. Some of you hate the current CDs because you disagreed with some of their past decisions. Having elected CDs will only pose greater problems. People will be railroaded into doing the bidding of their own clans and shit like that. I see so much wrong with it.

Some of you who are for elections have never worked on any kind of team online, so you have no idea how things work from the backend. It is a very different ball game when you are on the other side of the fence tying to please everyone but knowing full well that whatever decision you make is going to end up with one side in that particular scuffle being butthurt. Electing people will not make clan people nicer. You lot are ruthless and unforgiving of the staff who do so much for CC. Although, I speak of probably a handful of people when I say that.

I wouldn't take this position if I was paid because I know I wouldn't be able to please everyone. Never before have I seen it on a site that a group of people can attack volunteers so harshly and ruthlessly, and get away with it.


=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
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2013-11-13 11:47:40 - NapoleonTanerite [team]: "We will forgive your forgetting to use the troops in Turkey." It's hard to think with an erection, which I bet TM had!
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