Germany Revamp Competition - FINAL VOTE (page one)

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Which map would you like to see as CC's Germany Map?

Poll ended at Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:40 pm

Map F
89
37%
Map I
153
63%
 
Total votes : 242

Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby porkenbeans on Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:19 pm

In my opinion, I think that they are going at it wrong. I totally understand that it would be nice to do a revamp without changing any code. In most cases I would go along with this, but this map is in need of more than just a graphic revamp. The geography is wrong in many places. Why on Earth would you just make up rivers and mountains, and place them willy nilly, when it is just as easy to use the actual rivers and mountains that Germany has plenty of.

I suspect that they might be looking for a clean transition for the games that are already in progress.

I believe that there is a simple solution that will sidestep this whole problem.

Why is it not possible to just roll out this new revamp when it is ready. The games that are already in progress on the old map, can just be allowed to finish without changing the map. The start a game on the old map can be disabled. But the games that are going can finish on out. Then when they are finished, the old version can be disabled or deleted or whatever you need to do.
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby porkenbeans on Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:21 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:
porkenbeans wrote:MrBenn wrote:The general layout should be as close to the current map as possible; the idea is to make the transition between maps as easy as possible this time around, and in an ideal world we would want to keep the XML (technical description of the map) unchanged - although some flexibility will be allowed where necessary.

Well, I am confused. Mrbenn says very clearly that "flexibility" WILL be allowed.

WHICH IS IT ?????

I wish you guys would get your act together. How can anyone be expected to work on these projects, when this kind of crap is going on ?

Why don't you guys figure it out, and then with a single voice, Lay out the requirements, instead of these BS contradictory rules.

What REVAMP so far has ever changed the gameplay? Circus Maximus, Indochina, Montreal, Midgard, British Isles, Brazil, even pep's Germany?
The geography on the maps that you have mentioned did not need to be corrected.
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby porkenbeans on Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:29 pm

edbeard wrote:Mr. Benn is talking about moving army circles and the physical location of borders.

People think you are saying changing the actual gameplay (eg: you make Berlin and Dresden connect when currently they do not)

I'm unsure as to what you mean.
What I mean is, there are impassable mountains where none exist. There are impassable rivers where none exist. There are mountains where rivers should be and visa-versa.
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby edbeard on Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:37 pm

porkenbeans wrote:
edbeard wrote:Mr. Benn is talking about moving army circles and the physical location of borders.

People think you are saying changing the actual gameplay (eg: you make Berlin and Dresden connect when currently they do not)

I'm unsure as to what you mean.
What I mean is, there are impassable mountains where none exist. There are impassable rivers where none exist. There are mountains where rivers should be and visa-versa.


In the case where you've got mountains and rivers mixed up that's pretty simple. when you've got impassable mountains and none really exist there then you've got a problem.

this is where you have to just get creative. In the Canada revamp we saw someone use clouds. There's more than one way to make an impassable border. you can go back to the old Germany and Brazil style where you've just got an impassable border for gameplay purposes. you've got no rules as to how you're going to do it. obviously, since you're trying to make a real representation of Germany, you've got a harder job.

bottom line is it's a graphics only revamp. that's all that can change.
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby Incandenza on Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:38 pm

porkenbeans wrote:What I mean is, there are impassable mountains where none exist. There are impassable rivers where none exist. There are mountains where rivers should be and visa-versa.


Yes, because pepperonibread had to fit his revamped image to fit the exact gameplay of the old Germany map. All Revamps have had to follow the same template: absolutely no gameplay changes. When MrB was talking about "flexibility", he was referring to XML coordinates and the precise drawing of terits, NOT flexibility on gameplay.

The "no changed gameplay" rule has always been the case, with this and other revamps. While that's not necessarily the ideal situation in this case, that's the way it is. This is not policy set by the foundry, but rather by lackattack, so if you'd like to protest, don't blame the foundry, address all comments to the big turtle.
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby porkenbeans on Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:58 am

Incandenza wrote:
porkenbeans wrote:What I mean is, there are impassable mountains where none exist. There are impassable rivers where none exist. There are mountains where rivers should be and visa-versa.


Yes, because pepperonibread had to fit his revamped image to fit the exact gameplay of the old Germany map. All Revamps have had to follow the same template: absolutely no gameplay changes. When MrB was talking about "flexibility", he was referring to XML coordinates and the precise drawing of terits, NOT flexibility on gameplay.

The "no changed gameplay" rule has always been the case, with this and other revamps. While that's not necessarily the ideal situation in this case, that's the way it is. This is not policy set by the foundry, but rather by lackattack, so if you'd like to protest, don't blame the foundry, address all comments to the big turtle.
:lol:
Thank you for spelling it out so that it is more clear.

Let me pose a scenario, and then tell me what the Foundry's position would be.

Lets say someone produced a Germany map, that is unique in both game play, and geography, from this current map in question.

Would there be room for 2 Germany maps ?

It's just that the map that I have made is an accurate representation of Germany. I am now finding it very hard to bring myself to ruin it, by making rivers and mountains where none exist, for the sake of keeping to an inaccurate map. I am not from Germany, but I would think that the German CCers, would appreciate a map that shows an accurate representation of their country.
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby sully800 on Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:16 am

porkenbeans wrote:
Incandenza wrote:
porkenbeans wrote:What I mean is, there are impassable mountains where none exist. There are impassable rivers where none exist. There are mountains where rivers should be and visa-versa.


Yes, because pepperonibread had to fit his revamped image to fit the exact gameplay of the old Germany map. All Revamps have had to follow the same template: absolutely no gameplay changes. When MrB was talking about "flexibility", he was referring to XML coordinates and the precise drawing of terits, NOT flexibility on gameplay.

The "no changed gameplay" rule has always been the case, with this and other revamps. While that's not necessarily the ideal situation in this case, that's the way it is. This is not policy set by the foundry, but rather by lackattack, so if you'd like to protest, don't blame the foundry, address all comments to the big turtle.
:lol:
Thank you for spelling it out so that it is more clear.

Let me pose a scenario, and then tell me what the Foundry's position would be.

Lets say someone produced a Germany map, that is unique in both game play, and geography, from this current map in question.

Would there be room for 2 Germany maps ?

It's just that the map that I have made is an accurate representation of Germany. I am now finding it very hard to bring myself to ruin it, by making rivers and mountains where none exist, for the sake of keeping to an inaccurate map. I am not from Germany, but I would think that the German CCers, would appreciate a map that shows an accurate representation of their country.


There is room for more than one map of the same area... BUT the maps would have to be unique (more than just a few connections) and would probably require some interesting gameplay to warrant having two separate maps. And of course the worse news is that the new map would have to start at the beginning of the new map making process, and could not get a huge leg up from being a revamp (where gameplay is already set in stone and therefore does not need to be reapproved).

The thing about this current map though - most of the region names are derived from cities that reside within those regions. MANY of those cities are located on rivers, so with a bit of stretching and small redrawing you should be able to include all the current regions accurately with real rivers and maintaining the current gameplay. I would definitely advise this route instead of trying to create a new slightly different Germany II
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby Incandenza on Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:34 am

Setting aside the fact that there is no such thing as a "foundry position" on anything (given that the foundry is just a collection of individuals who often disagree), I personally would say that a second, completely different Germany map would be a tough row to hoe, so to speak. Right off the bat, there's the issue of repetition. CC already has the notably-geographically-flawed Germany map, plus the proto-German Holy Roman Empire map, plus the German Unification map making its way thru the main foundry. Having two maps that only depict the exact same country (in the same thematic context) would be a first for CC, and that's a Rubicon that I'm not sure many people would be willing to cross. Certainly there are overlaps between maps, but they are different in either geographical scope (like the aforementioned Germany vs. HRE) or theme (USA vs. USApocalypse, or Australia vs. Rail Australia, or France vs. France 1789). The only thing that really comes close is Europe vs. Europa, and then we're talking about an entire continent of a half-billion people as opposed to just a single country. The problem with Germany is that there really isn't much more that can be done thematically with the country, since the country itself is still only, what 130 years old, with a decent portion of that history off-limits for obvious reasons. Given that its distant past (HRE), somewhat-less-distant past (German Unification), and present are taken care of, Germany's pretty well taken care of, and having a map that's simply more accurate geographically isn't a lot to hang your hat on.

You're obviously welcome to give the idea a whirl and submit the map to the usual foundry process, but there will certainly be resistance. German CCers may or may not cotton to the idea, but the fact remains that it's almost always necessary to suborn real-world geography to gameplay needs. Also, before you think that Germans would flock to your map, have a look at the absolute clusterfuck that was the British Isles revamp, which took over a year IIRC.

It sucks that you spent a lot of time and effort on a map that isn't currently eligible for the revamp competition, and I understand that you don't just want to turn your back on all that, but ask yourself if it's worth spending potentially another year on a map that, geographical accuracy aside, would merely duplicate something already in the CC map library.

EDIT: fastposted by sully, who makes some excellent points that I should have thought of
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby RedBaron0 on Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:02 am

MrBenn wrote:3. The general layout should be as close to the current map as possible; the idea is to make the transition between maps as easy as possible this time around, and in an ideal world we would want to keep the XML (technical description of the map) unchanged - although some flexibility will be allowed where necessary.


Sorry for your confusion, this part "- although some flexibility will be allowed where necessary." refers to the XML coordinates ONLY. Meaning that placement of the armies by the XML on the map we would like to keep as close to the original as possible. You don't have to have a XML file ready when you finish. If your image is a slightly different size, or your "Berlin" is a different spot slightly then pep's this will require a change to the XML file.

"The general layout" part just means Germany should look like Germany. You can change the LOOK of the map, but not the gameplay as everyone in this thread has been trying to explain to you. If you want to make the physical appearance of a border different, go ahead, if a border needs to curve left instead of right for some reason, okay. Change the font, change the colors, etc... all okay. A mountain instead of a river..... eh alright, but it must still block the same territories!

porkenbeans wrote:It's just that the map that I have made is an accurate representation of Germany. I am now finding it very hard to bring myself to ruin it, by making rivers and mountains where none exist, for the sake of keeping to an inaccurate map. I am not from Germany, but I would think that the German CCers, would appreciate a map that shows an accurate representation of their country.


It is as sully says, it would not likely pass through because it won't be unique enough. If you like to go for some sort of Germany 2.0 it will have to have unique gameplay(i.e. 80-90 territories or more) you would have a better chance of getting through.
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:25 pm

What about France 1989 and the France map?

They're reasonably similar and both are available, though 1789 purports to have a historical theme which it really doesn't.
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby the.killing.44 on Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:26 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:What about France 1989 and the France map?

They're reasonably similar and both are available, though 1789 purports to have a historical theme which it really doesn't.

and noticably different gameplay.
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Dec 25, 2009 4:17 pm

Yeah, I think that they're different as well, but only in terms of how the territories are laid out. Does that, should that, qualify a map as "unique"?
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby gimil on Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:57 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Yeah, I think that they're different as well, but only in terms of how the territories are laid out. Does that, should that, qualify a map as "unique"?


I don't think that is a discussion for this thread.

Is anyone else as excited as me for this competition? A good competition always gets me going!
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby porkenbeans on Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:26 pm

gimil wrote:
Industrial Helix wrote:Yeah, I think that they're different as well, but only in terms of how the territories are laid out. Does that, should that, qualify a map as "unique"?


I don't think that is a discussion for this thread.

Is anyone else as excited as me for this competition? A good competition always gets me going!
Yeah, me too. :D

Does anyone know just how the voting is going to take place ?
Is it going to be held in a Foundry "poll thread" ? Where the regular hand full of Elites get to decide for everyone, or Is it going to be more widespread, and seek to poll from the larger CC community ?
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby sully800 on Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:30 pm

porkenbeans wrote:
gimil wrote:
Industrial Helix wrote:Yeah, I think that they're different as well, but only in terms of how the territories are laid out. Does that, should that, qualify a map as "unique"?


I don't think that is a discussion for this thread.

Is anyone else as excited as me for this competition? A good competition always gets me going!
Yeah, me too. :D

Does anyone know just how the voting is going to take place ?
Is it going to be held in a Foundry "poll thread" ? Where the regular hand full of Elites get to decide for everyone, or Is it going to be more widespread, and seek to poll from the larger CC community ?


A poll in the foundry is open to the entire CC community, not a "hand full of Elites". I think the foundry is a proper place for such a poll, but I'm not sure what the plan is for this revamp. (an announcement will probably be made to attract non-regulars to the foundry poll).
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby porkenbeans on Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:50 pm

sully800 wrote:
porkenbeans wrote:
gimil wrote:
Industrial Helix wrote:Yeah, I think that they're different as well, but only in terms of how the territories are laid out. Does that, should that, qualify a map as "unique"?


I don't think that is a discussion for this thread.

Is anyone else as excited as me for this competition? A good competition always gets me going!
Yeah, me too. :D

Does anyone know just how the voting is going to take place ?
Is it going to be held in a Foundry "poll thread" ? Where the regular hand full of Elites get to decide for everyone, or Is it going to be more widespread, and seek to poll from the larger CC community ?


A poll in the foundry is open to the entire CC community, not a "hand full of Elites". I think the foundry is a proper place for such a poll, but I'm not sure what the plan is for this revamp. (an announcement will probably be made to attract non-regulars to the foundry poll).
The Foundry is only regularly visited by a very small group of CC Forum goers.

The forums in turn, are only visited by a small fraction of CC members.

So, I am sure that you know exactly what my question was trying to get at.

I would like to make a suggestion regarding this topic.
CC could easily send out a pm to all CC members, inviting them to come take part in the poll. They could be enticed with a weeks premium upgrade, or something. This will have two benefits for CC.

1.) It will garner a much wider, and more representative CC electorate.

2.) It will also act as a pretty good advertising tool, to prompt players to upgrade their membership to PREMIUM. ;)
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby sully800 on Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:54 pm

porkenbeans wrote:The Foundry is only regularly visited by a very small group of CC Forum goers.

The forums in turn, are only visited by a small fraction of CC members.

So, I am sure that you know exactly what my question was trying to get at.

I would like to make a suggestion regarding this topic.
CC could easily send out a pm to all CC members, inviting them to come take part in the poll. They could be enticed with a weeks premium upgrade, or something. This will have two benefits for CC.

1.) It will garner a much wider, and more representative CC electorate.

2.) It will also act as a pretty good advertising tool, to prompt players to upgrade their membership to PREMIUM. ;)


I do see what you're getting at. But keep in mind that ALL maps are created in the foundry and could benefit from the input of the whole CC community. Do you think every player should receive a PM when every new map is created? Whenever each map is updated or upgraded through the foundry process? That would be a lot of unwanted/unnecessary spam IMO.

I hope an announcement is made to reach out to the larger community. Site wide announcements can be seen by every CC user (regardless if they regularly visit the forum) and it's much less intrusive/annoying than unwanted PMs. Once again, I don't know what the actual plan for this competition is.
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby natty dread on Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:06 pm

So when will the poll be posted? The deadline for the contest entries was yesterday. So will it be at the same time the foundry opens or...something else?
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:14 pm

natty_dread wrote:So when will the poll be posted? The deadline for the contest entries was yesterday. So will it be at the same time the foundry opens or...something else?

No, the deadline is in 46 minutes.
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby cairnswk on Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:14 pm

Guys, just to fill you in....and i don't know if this is a process that wil change with a push...

Several months ago when Twill was in charge of the General Discussion...i tried to get polls in the GD thread and promotion for my maps, however, this was overruled and i was told that anything to do with the maps "was to be kept in its rightful place -> i.e. the foundry."

As far as PMing everyone...this comes under the guise of spam and would probably be disallowed.
The problem has always been to get regulars into the Foundry to vote on polls, but that just doesn't happen as well as we'd like, and proably a lot has to do with the disillusionment of the Foundry.

A wider-spread poll is definitely needed on this, but what will CC allow/disallow ?? :?: :?: :!:
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby WidowMakers on Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:15 pm

sully800 wrote:I do see what you're getting at. But keep in mind that ALL maps are created in the foundry and could benefit from the input of the whole CC community. Do you think every player should receive a PM when every new map is created? Whenever each map is updated or upgraded through the foundry process? That would be a lot of unwanted/unnecessary spam IMO.

I think that it is a good idea.

I PMed over 8500 players and got back close to 1,300 votes in a poll for the HIVE map.
I think I got close to 200 PM's back and only 1 or 2 were "please don't bug me"

This site exists because of new maps. I would think the community would be happy to know when more are coming, ESPECIALLY when there is a revamp!

A PM to everyone initially (they may ask to be removed) would work wonders.
TONS of new people in the foundry. Even if many of the posts are "Map looks good", at least that is positive attention.
Once a map hits FF/or revamped a mass PM to all active players letting them know.
They cannot change GP or GFX but just come in to make sure that the map is understandable and if there are any concerns about readability.

Worst case it does not work and we stop mass emailing active players.
Best case it works and we get a large majority of people commenting.

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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:59 pm

Host your map file (one entry per contestant please) using Photobucket or some other file sharing program, and a link must be provided to MrBenn by 11:59pm GMT on December 27th, 2009. Late submissions will not be considered for entry.

Entry submitted 30 seconds ago 8)
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby gimil on Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:07 pm

I think you are all forgetting that there is no need to PM every single CC member for this revamp. Remember that the headlines that should be used for the competition reach the entire CC community. The Brazil revamp had hundreds of votes, pobably more than every former REVAMP (exc. the old school classic touch-up). In terms of REVAMP Brazil was the most successful for community involvement. I don't know why a few of you are getting your knickers all twisted about details. ;)
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby natty dread on Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:54 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:
natty_dread wrote:So when will the poll be posted? The deadline for the contest entries was yesterday. So will it be at the same time the foundry opens or...something else?

No, the deadline is in 46 minutes.


Damn, forgot about time zones...

OK, so now the deadline is past, so let me reiterate: where is the poll? :D
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Re: Germany Graphics ONLY Revamp Competition

Postby MrBenn on Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:34 pm

I've received a good number of entries, and now I need to check each of them for adherence to the competition rules (identical gameplay, terr names etc).

Once that has been done, it may be necessary to compile a shortlist (due to the number of entries) for a public vote (which will be 'headlined').

For the record, the re-revamp has only come about due to the disappearance of the mapmaker while the map is still in Beta.
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