Stop multis from playing (Merged) [Done]

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is turning busted multis armies into neutrals a good idea?

a resounding YES!!!
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93%
a resounding HECK NO!!!!
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Total votes : 91

Re: Dealing with Multis

Postby hulmey on Fri May 30, 2008 2:35 am

owenshooter wrote:
Vace Cooper wrote:I think Owen is messing with you a little bit... We are true believers in the ways of babysitting partners turns.

no i'm not. i just spent 20 days trying to make sure the new rule they were proposing for baby sitting accounts was fair to doubles players. one of the huge sticking points was the refusal to differentiate between sequential and freestyle team play by lack and twill... nobody could prove how sequential teams gained a "STRATEGIC" advantage in game play, by baby sitting. and now, in this thread, these guys just show how rampant it is in freestyle, by openly admitting it and declaring it standard in freestyle team play! now they are back tracking about a camping trip or whatever. like it or not, freestyle teams abuse baby sitting, and it is wrong. these two guys were just "smart" enough to admit it in a thread and declare it as no big deal. these two abuse the system, and i hope they are watched closely in their upcoming games. and to be fair, please monitor me in my team games, also...-0

p.s.-jbrettlip, there is no new rule... yet... stop drinking so early in the day if you are going to troll the forums bashing mods.


If you cant understand the strategic advantage of having the same player play all turns for its team then you need an IQ test. There is an advantage albiet alot smaller one than in freestyle games!!
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Re: Dealing with Multis

Postby Timminz on Fri May 30, 2008 11:55 am

hulmey wrote:If you cant understand the strategic advantage of having the same player play all turns for its team then you need an IQ test. There is an advantage albiet alot smaller one than in freestyle games!!


It can only be an advantage if all but one player on the team are idiots, and the non-idiot is the one taking the turns.
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Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby owenshooter on Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:10 am

question, when a person is busted for multiple accounts, why are they allowed to play out their games, possibly taking points off of members that are not cheats? would it be possible to turn an offenders armies into neutrals, as if they had deadbeated, when/if they are busted for multiple accounts? this would end the cries for points to be returned and/or games to be deleted. just an idea...

anyway, searched this forum, only found a thread about marking cheats, which is not what i'm suggesting. so, please resist the urge to merge this...
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=55097&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

thanks for your time!!!-0
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby yeti_c on Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:17 am

I think the ruling should be a deadbeating as if in Terminator game... i.e. they're still there - and you can kill them for their cards...

Unless it's a team game - then the teammate should inherit their cards (If it's a full team then the team should get dropped like a terminator death).

Either way though - this topic will get merged.

C.
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby lancehoch on Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:28 am

owenshooter wrote:question, when a person is busted for multiple accounts, why are they allowed to play out their games, possibly taking points off of members that are not cheats?
This is because the busted player still has the right to appeal. If they are cleared after a second look and they have done nothing wrong, then why should they have been forced to lose all of their active games?
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby yeti_c on Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:32 am

lancehoch wrote:
owenshooter wrote:question, when a person is busted for multiple accounts, why are they allowed to play out their games, possibly taking points off of members that are not cheats?
This is because the busted player still has the right to appeal. If they are cleared after a second look and they have done nothing wrong, then why should they have been forced to lose all of their active games?


As stated before - the people who successfully appeal are far outweighed by the people in the games that are ruined by having multi's that are still alive...

In fact the number of multi's will be outweighed heavily by the number of people in the games that they are ruining.

So - My point is - take the punishment away from the many and give it to the few - especially as 90% of those few are cheaters.

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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby owenshooter on Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:36 am

lancehoch wrote:
owenshooter wrote:question, when a person is busted for multiple accounts, why are they allowed to play out their games, possibly taking points off of members that are not cheats?
This is because the busted player still has the right to appeal. If they are cleared after a second look and they have done nothing wrong, then why should they have been forced to lose all of their active games?

let me type clearer. when a person IS BUSTED (as in the process is complete and they are indeed a BUSTED MULTI CHEAT), why are they allowed to play out their games? is that now clear enough?-0
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby InkL0sed on Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:40 am

This makes perfect sense.
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby PepperJack on Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:03 pm

Convicted inmates often appeal their decisions from inside the prison system. While this may be called a miscarriage of justice to the select few that are released on appeal, those numbers are vastly disproportionate to those that appeal and end up serving their term.

That's more or less a real life example of what Yeti said.

Add in the fact that one's score is weighted towards recently finished games for the bulk of the players on CC (higher ranks excluded) and an incorrectly accused multi can quickly recoup their points.

I support the cessation of activity on busted multis that are in the appeals process.
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby Fruitcake on Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:15 pm

owenshooter wrote:
lancehoch wrote:
owenshooter wrote:question, when a person is busted for multiple accounts, why are they allowed to play out their games, possibly taking points off of members that are not cheats?
This is because the busted player still has the right to appeal. If they are cleared after a second look and they have done nothing wrong, then why should they have been forced to lose all of their active games?

let me type clearer. when a person IS BUSTED (as in the process is complete and they are indeed a BUSTED MULTI CHEAT), why are they allowed to play out their games? is that now clear enough?-0


Sounds good to me. It would certainly resove a lot of the emotive issues surrounding letting them continue after being busted.
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby nagerous on Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:29 pm

yeti_c wrote:
lancehoch wrote:
owenshooter wrote:question, when a person is busted for multiple accounts, why are they allowed to play out their games, possibly taking points off of members that are not cheats?
This is because the busted player still has the right to appeal. If they are cleared after a second look and they have done nothing wrong, then why should they have been forced to lose all of their active games?


As stated before - the people who successfully appeal are far outweighed by the people in the games that are ruined by having multi's that are still alive...

In fact the number of multi's will be outweighed heavily by the number of people in the games that they are ruining.

So - My point is - take the punishment away from the many and give it to the few - especially as 90% of those few are cheaters.

C.


Very valid point there C.
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby jbrettlip on Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:57 pm

I voted to trun them neutral. And then I am going to sign in with my other account and do the same. I hate multis.
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby Jeff Hardy on Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:33 am

lancehoch wrote:
owenshooter wrote:question, when a person is busted for multiple accounts, why are they allowed to play out their games, possibly taking points off of members that are not cheats?
This is because the busted player still has the right to appeal. If they are cleared after a second look and they have done nothing wrong, then why should they have been forced to lose all of their active games?

dont bust them unless you are sure :roll:
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby yeti_c on Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:57 am

jbrettlip wrote:I voted to trun them neutral. And then I am going to sign in with my other account and do the same. I hate multis.


I think your multi voted the wrong way!?

C.
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby SirSebstar on Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:12 am

its a bad idea. really.
You want real world analogies that turn wrong or you want real reasons. A busted multi gets to make no new games. This saves time on the staff instead of wasting it from having to go through games and award or detract points in a meaningless fashionor turn their armies neutral.

As was stated before, being busted does not mean its sure you have been multi'ing (nor did he recieve a criminal trial with impartial judgement and evidence.) Since the verdict can be overturned, dispite how rare that is, its not really nice to just break in on those games and chance the game that way. Ofcourse there is also the terminator game where someone was eliminated by the multi, he is also not getting their point back, so the moment when it is appropriate to take action is also to late.
If you cant do it right, maybe you should not do it at all, and i feel thats the stance with cheaters / adjusting things ingame that CC takes. And rightly so!!
next time come up with a real suggestion that you have given some thought as to impact, severity andtry to see it from all sides.
Have a nice day.
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby yeti_c on Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:15 am

Multi.

C.
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby owenshooter on Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:59 am

yeti_c wrote:Multi.

C.

ha!! i'm glad someone made it through that mess of a post. i gave up after the 53rd typo and grammatical error within the first few attempted sentences. i still think it is a great idea for people that are truly busted...-0
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby shanksdigs on Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:01 pm

OMG. Conquer Club is a database and gameserver, right? Why has every discussion I've read on this topic included some mention of the inability to delete users? If it is a database and a gameserver, deleting a user is completely functional, acceptable, and correct. This topic suggests turning the abuser into a neutral which is part of the way towards the right solution. Go all the way, delete abusers accounts and the games they entered. It MUST be easy to do considering that Conquer Club is a database and gameserver.

To continue to allow them to play only causes the following to happen:

-honest players get frustrated with Conquer Club and resort to playing heads up games or private games secluding themselves from competition against new players.
-same honest players may decide to bail on paying the annual fee as this kind of abuse continues to happen.
-the ranking and rating system of Conquer Club is null and void. Any system that allows for a cheater to improperly modify theirs or another player's ranking makes most rankings suspect. (Clearly some of the better players can be determined to be solid players based on years of winning and thousands of wins. That being said, how can any member know whether a brigadier got his ranking because of multis or other methods of cheating?)
-some players may resort to cheating to return themselves the points that they undeservedly lost...and chaos ensues. (I have read PMs and emails from fellow players who have decided to cheat to get their points back, so I know it happens.)
-good players get their points and ranking shot down for no good reason.

Essentially, I am saying that the only effective strategy for ending the cheating that is rampant on this system is to delete cheater's accounts. Send a message that says that "Conquer Club does not advocate cheating!"
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby yeti_c on Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:09 pm

Deleting data from a Database is generally considered a bad thing in the IT Trade...

In fact - it's one of the primary cornerstones of Database integrity.

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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby Megadeth666 on Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:55 pm

So if a multi that got busted, and comes back and screws up games of the person that busted them, it is ok?

Because of some IT thing?...Don't know much how the program goes, but I have been screwed before from multis, and turning them neutral does seem like a logical answer.

Maybe not delete them, just postpone there moves till they lose....just like if your allowed to ban some one from chat , or playing some one, why can't you ban some one from doing a turn?
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby lancehoch on Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:12 pm

shanksdigs wrote:OMG. Conquer Club is a database and gameserver, right? Why has every discussion I've read on this topic included some mention of the inability to delete users? If it is a database and a gameserver, deleting a user is completely functional, acceptable, and correct. This topic suggests turning the abuser into a neutral which is part of the way towards the right solution. Go all the way, delete abusers accounts and the games they entered. It MUST be easy to do considering that Conquer Club is a database and gameserver.

As yeti points out, it has to do with the server integrity. If CC were to delete all of the games which involved someone who cheated, then a large percentage of the games which have been played would need to be deleted (just a guess, but I think 20% is a conservative number). This would affect more than just the games which are deleted. The resultant scores for every remaining game would have to be recalculated (at least those which finished after the first deleted game). This would absolutely kill the server, as scores are only kept as a current value. Also, the games which are missing logs could not be reversed. Also, if users were deleted, it would be impossible to prove who has previously held an account and the multi problems would compound.
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby owenshooter on Sat Nov 01, 2008 1:53 pm

lancehoch wrote:
shanksdigs wrote:OMG. Conquer Club is a database and gameserver, right? Why has every discussion I've read on this topic included some mention of the inability to delete users? If it is a database and a gameserver, deleting a user is completely functional, acceptable, and correct. This topic suggests turning the abuser into a neutral which is part of the way towards the right solution. Go all the way, delete abusers accounts and the games they entered. It MUST be easy to do considering that Conquer Club is a database and gameserver.

As yeti points out, it has to do with the server integrity. If CC were to delete all of the games which involved someone who cheated, then a large percentage of the games which have been played would need to be deleted (just a guess, but I think 20% is a conservative number). This would affect more than just the games which are deleted. The resultant scores for every remaining game would have to be recalculated (at least those which finished after the first deleted game). This would absolutely kill the server, as scores are only kept as a current value. Also, the games which are missing logs could not be reversed. Also, if users were deleted, it would be impossible to prove who has previously held an account and the multi problems would compound.

exactly lance! so why not just turn them neutral instead of discussing deleting them? i love when people argue my points for me in round about ways! i knew you would see the light lance!!!-0
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby lancehoch on Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:32 pm

owenshooter wrote:exactly lance! so why not just turn them neutral instead of discussing deleting them? i love when people argue my points for me in round about ways! i knew you would see the light lance!!!-0

I guess I was slightly off topic there, but turning them neutral would have a similar effect as not letting the person take their turns (well, the same effect, just 72 hours sooner). The reason I do not like the idea is that there are people who are incorrectly busted (see the incident a few weeks ago where 50 people were wrongly busted by accident) and this does not allow them any leeway for clearing their names.
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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby yeti_c on Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:32 pm

lancehoch wrote:
owenshooter wrote:exactly lance! so why not just turn them neutral instead of discussing deleting them? i love when people argue my points for me in round about ways! i knew you would see the light lance!!!-0

I guess I was slightly off topic there, but turning them neutral would have a similar effect as not letting the person take their turns (well, the same effect, just 72 hours sooner). The reason I do not like the idea is that there are people who are incorrectly busted (see the incident a few weeks ago where 50 people were wrongly busted by accident) and this does not allow them any leeway for clearing their names.


Agreed - but that is due to an error in the Bust system - and not the norm...

Without that specific issue involved (which should be fixed but hasn't been) the percentages far outweigh any potential "oh noes I got busted but I wasn't a multi" in comparison to "fucking multis stole my points again even though they got busted 2 weeks ago".

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Re: Turning Busted Multis Armies into Neutrals

Postby shanksdigs on Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:45 pm

lancehoch wrote:
shanksdigs wrote:OMG. Conquer Club is a database and gameserver, right? Why has every discussion I've read on this topic included some mention of the inability to delete users? If it is a database and a gameserver, deleting a user is completely functional, acceptable, and correct. This topic suggests turning the abuser into a neutral which is part of the way towards the right solution. Go all the way, delete abusers accounts and the games they entered. It MUST be easy to do considering that Conquer Club is a database and gameserver.

As yeti points out, it has to do with the server integrity. If CC were to delete all of the games which involved someone who cheated, then a large percentage of the games which have been played would need to be deleted (just a guess, but I think 20% is a conservative number). This would affect more than just the games which are deleted. The resultant scores for every remaining game would have to be recalculated (at least those which finished after the first deleted game). This would absolutely kill the server, as scores are only kept as a current value. Also, the games which are missing logs could not be reversed. Also, if users were deleted, it would be impossible to prove who has previously held an account and the multi problems would compound.


Who cares about server integrity when the ranking and rating system's integrity becomes invalid? These people are allowed to come on to this game, create multis and/or chaos accounts and they wreak havoc on paying customers. The ranking system is invalid until a method is developed whereby cheaters accounts and games can be voided. Your response just encourages me to NOT renew when the annual fee time comes around again. Can anyone give me a good reason why I shoud renew? Every comment following mine just reaffirms the fact that I should not renew.
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