Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns [Done]

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Postby LLLUUUKKKEEE on Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:46 pm

They miss out on a card though if they do that, so let them.
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Postby iamjhing on Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:35 pm

this is still a glitch, and was most likely NOT intended when the game was made. It's a simple fix... late players can't go first in freestyle.
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Postby Sparqs on Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:50 pm

I think this is a more egregious problem than my rant about waiting for the next player to start and then jumping in for back-to-backs. In this case, you don't even have to sit there waiting for someone to start the next round - you know when your turn will time out.

You may miss a card, if it's a game with cards, but the bonus or strategic advantage may well outweigh that cost.

Sure, there will always be aspects of freestyle that reward optimal-timing play, but some of these problems are very unbalancing and easily addressed. I understand that a new style should fix this, but will things like this 'bug' (I honestly think this one is a bug) in current freestyle be addressed?
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Ending Turns in Freestyle

Postby Wwoody123 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:01 pm

* Suggestion Idea: When the last person doesn't end their turn in freestyle game and lets the clock run out, they cannot start the next turn.
* Specifics: Players who don't start a turn should be able to start the next turn, but if you have begun your turn, placed your armies, attacked, fortified, and just sit on your but because it's a no cards game or something, you shouldn't get to start the next turn.
* Why it is needed: Currently we have a protective measure to prevent someone in a freestyle game from going two turns in a row: if you were the last to play, you can't start the next turn. However, if you do start your turn but don't finish it, the game still allows you to begin the next round. I would assume this is because people who would be the last to play but miss their turn can still get in on the action, but people who did not miss their turn and then subsequently start the next round get a huge advantage.
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Postby lackattack on Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:21 pm

So if everyone is taking their turn when the round times out all players would then be locked out for 12 hours?
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Postby khazalid on Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:23 pm

makes sense to me..
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Postby Fire Mario on Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:30 pm

A reason that people would not finish their turns is probably in esclating games, they have four cards, and not want to be forced to turn in cards while their trade-in-value is still low. If they not end their turn, they don't get another card, and won't be forced to turn in a set.
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Postby Wwoody123 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:43 pm

lackattack wrote:So if everyone is taking their turn when the round times out all players would then be locked out for 12 hours?


First, in my experience this has never happened so I don't think that it would be an issue in all too many instances.

Second, I think that if my suggestion was implemented it would cause this to happen even more infrequently; people would know that they would have a great advantage by being able to go first and would actually end their turn.

Third, I think that the problem I brought up happens more often in speed games, meaning that the wait will be 2.5 minutes, not 12 hours.

Fourth, even if it was 12 hours, then I don't really see what the big deal is; people have games where there turns are starting and finishing all the time. If they can't afford to wait the 12 hours they should just end their turn in the first place.

Fifth, If the real worry here is that people are being forced to wait, I think it's even worse in the status quo because one person can force everyone to wait an entire turn, if my suggestion was implemented then at worst everyone would have control over the waiting.

Sixth, if you think that this instance would present a significant flaw in my suggestion, then I'm sure that the code can be altered to prevent that from happening.

Fire Mario wrote:A reason that people would not finish their turns is probably in esclating games, they have four cards, and not want to be forced to turn in cards while their trade-in-value is still low. If they not end their turn, they don't get another card, and won't be forced to turn in a set.


That is an alternate motive for why people would not end their turns and is absolutely true. Although my suggestion wouldn't *fix* the cards issue, it's not the problem that it's addressing in the first place but would at least mitigate the offensive power of someone using it for that purpose because they couldn't get a sneak attack in at the beginning of their next turn.

For everyone who voted 'Bad Idea' please feel free to provide your reasoning below and I will promptly dismiss your silliness :twisted:
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Postby wicked on Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:56 pm

I voted yes. 8) I agree if no one finishes their turn, than that's their own fault and they should have to wait. :wink:

But are there any more elegant solutions out there?
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Postby Wwoody123 on Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:19 am

lack, still thinking about it?
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Postby lackattack on Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:20 am

I have this bookmarked, I'll consider it for a future update.
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Eliminate Time-Out Advantage in Freestyle Games

Postby Shino Tenshi on Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:11 pm

Suggestion Idea: Eliminate the advantage of timing out in freestyle games in order to not have to wait for someone else to start their turn.

Specifics: Instead of allowing someone to take their turn immediately after they have timed out, treat their turn order as if they had gone last and don't allow the player to take their turn until someone else has started theirs.

Why it is needed: Many people will time out during freestyle (usually speed freestyle) games in order to go immediately after they're finished their turn. This circumvents the penalty that's already in place for taking your turn last. This allows players who burn down the clock in freestyle games to go last the ability to deploy quicker and have less chance of losing bonuses they've just gained by waiting for everyone else to finish their turns. Effectively, this suggestion would, hopefully, speed games up and if nothing else, make them slightly fairer.
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Postby mitchmitch11 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:20 pm

Yes I never thought of that but it would make the game overall more fair. Or just not give back the extra armies for missing their turn.
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Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby treefiddy on Thu May 08, 2008 5:50 pm

Concise description: Adjust Freestyle in such a way that if someone is active in their turn when the round timer ends; they must still wait half the round or until someone else starts their turn to start their turn. If all players are active when the round expires, then anyone may go at the start of the new round.

Specifics: If Player 1 is playing against Player 2. Player 1 starts and ends their turn. Player 2 can then start their turn, and let the round time out. Because Player 2 did not end their turn, and the round timeout triggered the new turn, Player 2 can immediately take their turn again. If done correctly, Player 2 basically gives up a card (or nothing in No Cards games) to get two turns in a row.

This will improve the following aspects of the site: Will eliminate Double Turns from Freestyle while still allowing people to play faster paced games where they can take their turns at the same time as their opponents and/or teammates. In my opinion, putting everyone on a level playing field and allowing the best player to win without any cheap advantages.

This is basically a more formal request from some discussion that has taken place in the cheating forum in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50587
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Thezzaruz on Thu May 08, 2008 6:22 pm

I strongly support this. Seems quite clear that taking back-to-back turns is meant to be prohibited but this is a loophole to get around that restriction, close it please.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby cramill on Thu May 08, 2008 8:10 pm

I support this as well. See the link to the other thread at the end of treefiddy's post to see my arguments.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby poo-maker on Thu May 08, 2008 8:28 pm

God damnit, what is it with people trying to change things that others like. First classic, now freestyle...
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby bbqpenguin on Thu May 08, 2008 8:59 pm

i strongly oppose this. double turns is just basic part of freestyle strategy. stopping this is akin to prohibiting teamates form taking turns at the same time, blocking, hedging, or any other basic strategy usable in any game. double turns simply takes advantage of the rules of a certain gametype; something which you should always do. if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. if you play freestyle regularly (which i don't), then you need to be prepared to take double turns, it helps you win. if you are unable to or don't like this strategy, then don't play freestyle.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby cramill on Thu May 08, 2008 10:06 pm

bbqpenguin wrote:i strongly oppose this. double turns is just basic part of freestyle strategy. stopping this is akin to prohibiting teamates form taking turns at the same time, blocking, hedging, or any other basic strategy usable in any game. double turns simply takes advantage of the rules of a certain gametype; something which you should always do. if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. if you play freestyle regularly (which i don't), then you need to be prepared to take double turns, it helps you win. if you are unable to or don't like this strategy, then don't play freestyle.

I don't think you understand the argument. This should not be a legal tactic. Everything else that falls within the rules is fine. I don't think anyone will complain about teammates taking their turns at the same time unless they are complete idiots.

I'll quote this here for anyone who is too lazy to read the linked thread:
Page of Instructions wrote:In a freestyle game it doesn't matter in which order players take their turns. Players can even play simultaneously! After the last player takes his turn, a new round begins immediately. The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.

This says that the last person to go in the round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn. Now, don't say that because you don't end your turn that doesn't trigger the new round, so you can start another turn right away. Thats the loophole that we want to get rid of. You chose to go last so you shouldn't be able to go first in the next round.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby treefiddy on Fri May 09, 2008 1:18 am

We can go back and forth on what we think is correct and what we don't. I view it as an exploit of sorts; and based on the response it was given by Fireside Poet in the Abuse forum lead me to believe that he couldn't identify if it getting a double turn like that was abuse or by design.

We should probably just wait for Lack or someone else in charge to determine if it's by design or not.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby yeti_c on Fri May 09, 2008 4:19 am

Double turns due to running out of time is a tactic that should be disallowed from the rules - claiming that it's a tactic is a load of shit and all of you :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: know it... very shocked at Poo Maker for his comments - I thought that you were better than that.

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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby poo-maker on Fri May 09, 2008 4:28 am

yeti_c wrote:Double turns due to running out of time is a tactic that should be disallowed from the rules - claiming that it's a tactic is a load of shit and all of you :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: know it... very shocked at Poo Maker for his comments - I thought that you were better than that.

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Yeti, the double turns in freestyle are what helps to make freestyle so much fun. Anyone and everyone can do it, so I don't see anything unfair about it.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby yeti_c on Fri May 09, 2008 4:36 am

poo-maker wrote:
yeti_c wrote:Double turns due to running out of time is a tactic that should be disallowed from the rules - claiming that it's a tactic is a load of shit and all of you :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: know it... very shocked at Poo Maker for his comments - I thought that you were better than that.

C.

Yeti, the double turns in freestyle are what helps to make freestyle so much fun. Anyone and everyone can do it, so I don't see anything unfair about it.


Exactly a reason why I don't play Freestyle... it doesn't make it fun for the people that don't use the loopholes... it just makes it a guaranteed way to lose.

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PS - congrats on Conqueror again.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Scott-Land on Fri May 09, 2008 4:43 am

poo-maker wrote:God damnit, what is it with people trying to change things that others like. First classic, now freestyle...



hehee.... are they talking about casual games or speed freestyle? i wouldn't mind that being a game type- it would be pretty interesting in speed games. can you imagine missing a card at the last second and then be a sitting duck for the next 2.5 minutes? think it would also make players more aware of their card count. downfall to this is that if you miss a turn entirely then what- same 2.5 minute penalty?
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Thezzaruz on Fri May 09, 2008 4:58 am

bbqpenguin wrote:double turns is just basic part of freestyle strategy.


If that would be true then there wouldn't be any need for the "no back-to-back turns" rule that is set now would there???
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