Double Turns and Freestyle Turn Holding

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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Torter_of_Worlds on Tue May 27, 2008 10:01 am

Though I do not particpate in this activity I feel I must comment.

Any double turn taker loses his ability to fortify - depending on the map and fort settings, this can be huge.

I also don't see this being a problem for 1 v. 1 speed freestyle games. The other player has equal opportunity to start his turn. Also relevant to speed games: the other player can keep tabs on you...if it is 10 seconds...5...2 seconds; be prepared for a double turn taker.

However, for casual freestyle games, I see how the possibility of exploiting this could become very relevant.

Regards,

ToW
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Torter_of_Worlds on Tue May 27, 2008 10:01 am

FabledIntegral wrote:I agree with this. Basically in No cards games, people ALWAYS let the timer run out, because they don't lose anything. It's actually detrimental to end your turn in these types of games... if you run out of time the other person should be able to start first, thus rewarding the player who ends first. My opinion.


I don't =p

But then again, you understand and appreciate my strategy.

=D
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Torter_of_Worlds on Tue May 27, 2008 10:03 am

Thezzaruz wrote: Can't see why it shouldn't as it seems to be needed there the most...


hmmm - seems conclusory to me.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby kentington on Tue May 27, 2008 10:22 am

Everyone keeps asking about a 1 v 1 game where they both let the time run out.
It is impossible to start your turns at the exact same time, so whoever begins their turn first will run out of time first. Thus, if they both let their time run out the person who started their turn first, then starts the next round. In this scenario, it is stupid for player 2 to let the time run out.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby cramill on Tue May 27, 2008 3:17 pm

kentington wrote:Everyone keeps asking about a 1 v 1 game where they both let the time run out.
It is impossible to start your turns at the exact same time, so whoever begins their turn first will run out of time first. Thus, if they both let their time run out the person who started their turn first, then starts the next round. In this scenario, it is stupid for player 2 to let the time run out.

Are you sure? It seems like you are thinking of the case that there is plenty of time left in the round so both players run out of time before the round timer runs out - so each player times out individually. People are wondering about if both players start and then their turns run out of time because the round timer ended, not their individual turn time.
So, if both players are going when the round timer expires, does it say that the person who started first ran out of time first? Does it matter?
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby hatterson on Tue May 27, 2008 3:23 pm

cramill wrote:
kentington wrote:Everyone keeps asking about a 1 v 1 game where they both let the time run out.
It is impossible to start your turns at the exact same time, so whoever begins their turn first will run out of time first. Thus, if they both let their time run out the person who started their turn first, then starts the next round. In this scenario, it is stupid for player 2 to let the time run out.

Are you sure? It seems like you are thinking of the case that there is plenty of time left in the round so both players run out of time before the round timer runs out - so each player times out individually. People are wondering about if both players start and then their turns run out of time because the round timer ended, not their individual turn time.
So, if both players are going when the round timer expires, does it say that the person who started first ran out of time first? Does it matter?


If all active (still alive) players are mid turn when the turn timer ends then it's just a free for all to begin the next turn. After all they were all mid turn so they should all be active.

If not all active players (still alive) are mid turn when the turn timer ends then they can't start the next turn but anyone else can.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby lancehoch on Tue May 27, 2008 3:36 pm

I think someone stated it perfectly before. If all of the players run out of time due to the round ending, they should all be locked out until half of the next round has passed. This is the most simple solution to code, it is also the most fair solution.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby cramill on Tue May 27, 2008 5:27 pm

lancehoch wrote:I think someone stated it perfectly before. If all of the players run out of time due to the round ending, they should all be locked out until half of the next round has passed. This is the most simple solution to code, it is also the most fair solution.

But, that doesn't make much sense. I have no idea if it would be hard or easy to code (although i think it wouldn't be too hard if it required a few extra lines of code), but the thing is that there would be a period of time that no one is able to do anything in the game. In a casual game, it sits there for 12 hours with no one being able to do anything. Now, I've never played a speed freestyle game, but I'm sure those who do don't want to be waiting half the round while everyone sits there, not being able to do anything.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby lancehoch on Tue May 27, 2008 5:33 pm

The people that play speed freestyle keep saying that only the last few seconds are important. What they do is essentially, start their turn to receive the maximum amount of armies then sit for three or four minutes. This would not affect them, since they would just have to wait 2.5 min to get the maximum amount of armies. For 24 hour turn games, it would actually stop people from doing this. They would realize that the strategy forces them to waste their time (12 hours) waiting around. Maybe people would stop using the strategy, which was the intent of this thread in the beginning.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby hatterson on Tue May 27, 2008 5:56 pm

cramill wrote:
lancehoch wrote:I think someone stated it perfectly before. If all of the players run out of time due to the round ending, they should all be locked out until half of the next round has passed. This is the most simple solution to code, it is also the most fair solution.

But, that doesn't make much sense. I have no idea if it would be hard or easy to code (although i think it wouldn't be too hard if it required a few extra lines of code), but the thing is that there would be a period of time that no one is able to do anything in the game. In a casual game, it sits there for 12 hours with no one being able to do anything. Now, I've never played a speed freestyle game, but I'm sure those who do don't want to be waiting half the round while everyone sits there, not being able to do anything.


Easy solution, don't let time expire on your turn. Then you'll be assured that you can go as soon as the turn pops.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Herakilla on Tue May 27, 2008 9:29 pm

lancehoch wrote:The people that play speed freestyle keep saying that only the last few seconds are important. What they do is essentially, start their turn to receive the maximum amount of armies then sit for three or four minutes. This would not affect them, since they would just have to wait 2.5 min to get the maximum amount of armies. For 24 hour turn games, it would actually stop people from doing this. They would realize that the strategy forces them to waste their time (12 hours) waiting around. Maybe people would stop using the strategy, which was the intent of this thread in the beginning.


it would affect them because the faster player could possibly do all he/she needs to do and end turn with a second or two left and the other player doesnt see this and thus is locked out

this whole idea IMO is just dumb
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby cramill on Wed May 28, 2008 2:19 pm

Herakilla wrote:it would affect them because the faster player could possibly do all he/she needs to do and end turn with a second or two left and the other player doesnt see this and thus is locked out

Well, don't be slow then. This is encouraging people to be quick and finish their turns. If they don't - too bad for them. Unfair? I don't think so because all they have do do is wait for someone else to start, then they can start. Everyone should be online and ready to go if its a speed game. No?

Honestly, I don't play speed freestyle games - so I'm not exactly sure how this would affect those. But in casual games, the double turn exploit needs to be fixed!
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Herakilla on Wed May 28, 2008 3:18 pm

leave speed games alone at least, the block and the whole idea of it will really hurt it
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Thezzaruz on Wed May 28, 2008 6:31 pm

Herakilla wrote:leave speed games alone at least, the block and the whole idea of it will really hurt it


Yea following the rules can be a bitch...
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby MrBenn on Fri May 30, 2008 8:33 am

cramill wrote:...the thing is that there would be a period of time that no one is able to do anything in the game. In a casual game, it sits there for 12 hours with no one being able to do anything...

That would only happen if everybody was active in their turn at the end of the round, meaning that everybody is waiting 23hrs before taking their turn and letting the clock run down.

cramill wrote:...Now, I've never played a speed freestyle game, but I'm sure those who do don't want to be waiting half the round while everyone sits there, not being able to do anything.

That would only happen if everybody was active in their turn at the end of the round - which only happens due to the 'double-turns-loophole' strategy. As somebody else mentioned, most serious/successful speed freestlyers sit around waiting in any case; and 2.5 mins is nothing compared to the 12hrs of half-a-standard-game.

The intention of this suggestion is to stop people taking advantage of the last-minute-sniping that is a consequence of the loophole. Freestyle speed games are currently unecessarily slow due to the loophole... I see no real reason why not to implement this suggestion.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby cramill on Fri May 30, 2008 2:26 pm

MrBenn wrote:That would only happen if everybody was active in their turn at the end of the round, meaning that everybody is waiting 23hrs before taking their turn and letting the clock run down.

Thats exactly what i was saying. It would be silly if everyone ran out of time and then everyone had to wait untill half the round passed to take their turn. Especially in a casual game where the game is sitting there for 12 hours with everyone not being able to do anything.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby lancehoch on Fri May 30, 2008 2:34 pm

cramill wrote:Thats exactly what i was saying. It would be silly if everyone ran out of time and then everyone had to wait untill half the round passed to take their turn. Especially in a casual game where the game is sitting there for 12 hours with everyone not being able to do anything.

Yes, it would be silly. Thats what we are trying to avoid. Those of us who do not want to end the double turn do not want people using this strategy at all. So, if it is silly and people are waiting half of the round, we do not care. We want these people to be put off and not to use this strategy any more. This is the best way to stop them. Why would we let a larger group get away with this strategy (a full game) when if an isolated person in a game does this they have to wait for half the turn.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Thezzaruz on Fri May 30, 2008 7:57 pm

cramill wrote:Thats exactly what i was saying. It would be silly if everyone ran out of time and then everyone had to wait untill half the round passed to take their turn. Especially in a casual game where the game is sitting there for 12 hours with everyone not being able to do anything.


Yes it would be silly. But it would almost never happen as the benefit of having the possibility to act directly is great enough for people make sure they end their turn in time. It's a non-issue IMO.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby pimphawks70 on Fri May 30, 2008 9:46 pm

wicked wrote:Then both have to wait 2.5 minutes. Or should this not apply to speed games?



It should not apply anywhere. Letting your time run out is a very good tactic when playing freestyle and it shouldn't be changed
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby JesusReigns on Sat May 31, 2008 1:35 am

Well Personally I like the double turns... It's the other person or teams fault if they don't get there move done.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby cramill on Sat May 31, 2008 11:37 am

pimphawks70 wrote:
wicked wrote:Then both have to wait 2.5 minutes. Or should this not apply to speed games?

It should not apply anywhere. Letting your time run out is a very good tactic when playing freestyle and it shouldn't be changed

I disagree. Its an exploit, not a tactic.

JesusReigns wrote:Well Personally I like the double turns... It's the other person or teams fault if they don't get there move done.

??? I don't understand what you just said. Its the other person or teams fault if they don't get their move done? What do you mean? Are you saying that the person who gets screwed over because someone took a double turn is to blame? Or, are you saying that the person who ran out of time because the round ended - its their fault for running out of time and therefore they should be able to take a double turn? That doesn't make much sense. I don't understand your logic, or what you are trying to say.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby kentington on Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:44 am

Freestyle speed games are speed games, if you can't play fast enough to end your turn in time don't play.
Freestyle casual games were intended to have only one turn, no back-to-backs, if you don't like it and can't win playing by the rules and not exploiting loop holes, then don't play.
Stop telling people who follow the rules and win, when the rules are followed and sometimes when not, to play sequential if they don't like it.
People who use this "tactic" are like little kids who play a game and say, "the rules don't specifically say that you can't do this," even when it is highly implied, just to win. The only difference is the rules specifically forbid double turns.
The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Soloman on Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:50 am

kentington wrote:Freestyle speed games are speed games, if you can't play fast enough to end your turn in time don't play.
Freestyle casual games were intended to have only one turn, no back-to-backs, if you don't like it and can't win playing by the rules and not exploiting loop holes, then don't play.
Stop telling people who follow the rules and win, when the rules are followed and sometimes when not, to play sequential if they don't like it.
People who use this "tactic" are like little kids who play a game and say, "the rules don't specifically say that you can't do this," even when it is highly implied, just to win. The only difference is the rules specifically forbid double turns.
The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.

It is part of the game people use the rules to there avantage do not play freestyle if you cannot handle how it is played...
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby meathead on Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:55 am

If this suggestion was implemented it would likely turn the game into a sequential game with whoever joined last going 1st, which isn't fair either. This would hold very true in casual games especially as the player who goes 1st can chose a tme when their opponants are offline to start and end their turn, blocking them from going until they have finished.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby kentington on Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:16 pm

meathead wrote:If this suggestion was implemented it would likely turn the game into a sequential game with whoever joined last going 1st, which isn't fair either. This would hold very true in casual games especially as the player who goes 1st can chose a tme when their opponants are offline to start and end their turn, blocking them from going until they have finished.


Yes, the last person to join gets to go first. What is the problem with that? They get an advantage, but you know about it and it doesn't go against what the rules say, but it is fair. It does not block anyone from going until they finish their turn. It is freestyle, simultaneous, which makes it very different from sequential. This does not creat an order like sequential and it is very easy to be first on the next round unless, you are the last to sign on and see everyone else has gone, which would be your fault for not checking. I have seen someone go first and get crappy dice and everyone after picked them off. It is fair.

Soloman wrote:It is part of the game people use the rules to there avantage do not play freestyle if you cannot handle how it is played...


Did you not read my post? People are not using the rules to their advantage they are going against what the rules say about back-to-back turns. Please re-read my post and the quote inside it. I think you just typed as fast as you could to say, "Don't play." If you find in the rules that it is okay to do this post the quote and show me. I will admit I was wrong.
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