Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns [Done]

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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby cramill on Thu May 08, 2008 8:10 pm

I support this as well. See the link to the other thread at the end of treefiddy's post to see my arguments.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby poo-maker on Thu May 08, 2008 8:28 pm

God damnit, what is it with people trying to change things that others like. First classic, now freestyle...
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby bbqpenguin on Thu May 08, 2008 8:59 pm

i strongly oppose this. double turns is just basic part of freestyle strategy. stopping this is akin to prohibiting teamates form taking turns at the same time, blocking, hedging, or any other basic strategy usable in any game. double turns simply takes advantage of the rules of a certain gametype; something which you should always do. if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. if you play freestyle regularly (which i don't), then you need to be prepared to take double turns, it helps you win. if you are unable to or don't like this strategy, then don't play freestyle.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby cramill on Thu May 08, 2008 10:06 pm

bbqpenguin wrote:i strongly oppose this. double turns is just basic part of freestyle strategy. stopping this is akin to prohibiting teamates form taking turns at the same time, blocking, hedging, or any other basic strategy usable in any game. double turns simply takes advantage of the rules of a certain gametype; something which you should always do. if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. if you play freestyle regularly (which i don't), then you need to be prepared to take double turns, it helps you win. if you are unable to or don't like this strategy, then don't play freestyle.

I don't think you understand the argument. This should not be a legal tactic. Everything else that falls within the rules is fine. I don't think anyone will complain about teammates taking their turns at the same time unless they are complete idiots.

I'll quote this here for anyone who is too lazy to read the linked thread:
Page of Instructions wrote:In a freestyle game it doesn't matter in which order players take their turns. Players can even play simultaneously! After the last player takes his turn, a new round begins immediately. The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.

This says that the last person to go in the round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn. Now, don't say that because you don't end your turn that doesn't trigger the new round, so you can start another turn right away. Thats the loophole that we want to get rid of. You chose to go last so you shouldn't be able to go first in the next round.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby treefiddy on Fri May 09, 2008 1:18 am

We can go back and forth on what we think is correct and what we don't. I view it as an exploit of sorts; and based on the response it was given by Fireside Poet in the Abuse forum lead me to believe that he couldn't identify if it getting a double turn like that was abuse or by design.

We should probably just wait for Lack or someone else in charge to determine if it's by design or not.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby yeti_c on Fri May 09, 2008 4:19 am

Double turns due to running out of time is a tactic that should be disallowed from the rules - claiming that it's a tactic is a load of shit and all of you :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: know it... very shocked at Poo Maker for his comments - I thought that you were better than that.

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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby poo-maker on Fri May 09, 2008 4:28 am

yeti_c wrote:Double turns due to running out of time is a tactic that should be disallowed from the rules - claiming that it's a tactic is a load of shit and all of you :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: know it... very shocked at Poo Maker for his comments - I thought that you were better than that.

C.

Yeti, the double turns in freestyle are what helps to make freestyle so much fun. Anyone and everyone can do it, so I don't see anything unfair about it.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby yeti_c on Fri May 09, 2008 4:36 am

poo-maker wrote:
yeti_c wrote:Double turns due to running out of time is a tactic that should be disallowed from the rules - claiming that it's a tactic is a load of shit and all of you :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: know it... very shocked at Poo Maker for his comments - I thought that you were better than that.

C.

Yeti, the double turns in freestyle are what helps to make freestyle so much fun. Anyone and everyone can do it, so I don't see anything unfair about it.


Exactly a reason why I don't play Freestyle... it doesn't make it fun for the people that don't use the loopholes... it just makes it a guaranteed way to lose.

C.

PS - congrats on Conqueror again.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Scott-Land on Fri May 09, 2008 4:43 am

poo-maker wrote:God damnit, what is it with people trying to change things that others like. First classic, now freestyle...



hehee.... are they talking about casual games or speed freestyle? i wouldn't mind that being a game type- it would be pretty interesting in speed games. can you imagine missing a card at the last second and then be a sitting duck for the next 2.5 minutes? think it would also make players more aware of their card count. downfall to this is that if you miss a turn entirely then what- same 2.5 minute penalty?
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Thezzaruz on Fri May 09, 2008 4:58 am

bbqpenguin wrote:double turns is just basic part of freestyle strategy.


If that would be true then there wouldn't be any need for the "no back-to-back turns" rule that is set now would there???
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby poo-maker on Fri May 09, 2008 8:41 am

yeti_c wrote:
poo-maker wrote:
yeti_c wrote:Double turns due to running out of time is a tactic that should be disallowed from the rules - claiming that it's a tactic is a load of shit and all of you :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: know it... very shocked at Poo Maker for his comments - I thought that you were better than that.

C.

Yeti, the double turns in freestyle are what helps to make freestyle so much fun. Anyone and everyone can do it, so I don't see anything unfair about it.


Exactly a reason why I don't play Freestyle... it doesn't make it fun for the people that don't use the loopholes... it just makes it a guaranteed way to lose.

C.

PS - congrats on Conqueror again.

Fair enough... though, because of the loopholes, there are more tactics that you can use.

Ty btw.

Scott- i think they're talking about freestyle in general.... casual and speed
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby poo-maker on Fri May 09, 2008 8:45 am

Btw, I have just read over the original suggestion again. Tbh, it wouldn't actually change speed freestyle that much... I mean, most of the best players can start 2 or 3 seconds after the round starts. Those using clicky maps can also start a fraction of a second after the round starts or a fraction of a second after the first person triggers their turn. There wouldn't be time to break them....
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby yeti_c on Fri May 09, 2008 9:56 am

poo-maker wrote:Btw, I have just read over the original suggestion again. Tbh, it wouldn't actually change speed freestyle that much... I mean, most of the best players can start 2 or 3 seconds after the round starts. Those using clicky maps can also start a fraction of a second after the round starts or a fraction of a second after the first person triggers their turn. There wouldn't be time to break them....


Yes - but it would stop them from starting the turn though... therefore the next player could wait for a few hours if they wanted - and it's their decision - not the 'cheaters'...

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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Thezzaruz on Fri May 09, 2008 10:24 am

poo-maker wrote:though, because of the loopholes, there are more tactics that you can use.


Not really though. This loophole brings a quite dominant strategy and hence it would reduce the amount of usable strategies atm.



poo-maker wrote:Those using clicky maps can also start a fraction of a second after the round starts or a fraction of a second after the first person triggers their turn. There wouldn't be time to break them....


Yea this isn't meant to change that, just stop people from taking 2 turns without giving someone else the chance to respond.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby poo-maker on Fri May 09, 2008 11:34 am

Thezzaruz wrote:
poo-maker wrote:though, because of the loopholes, there are more tactics that you can use.


Not really though. This loophole brings a quite dominant strategy and hence it would reduce the amount of usable strategies atm.


I don't think its that dominant. If you're playing esc or flate rate, you have to make a sacrifice by skipping a card for this to work. Though, i agree that it is a v.dominant strategy in no cards. (due to bonuses being so important)

Do you guys have any ideas in mind as to what you would like a new rule to be? We definitely don't want a rule change that resembles anything like the old system where players would play at the last minutes. Leaving only a couple of minutes for their opponent to play in that round.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby treefiddy on Fri May 09, 2008 11:42 am

poo-maker wrote:Do you guys have any ideas in mind as to what you would like a new rule to be? We definitely don't want a rule change that resembles anything like the old system where players would play at the last minutes. Leaving only a couple of minutes for their opponent to play in that round.


I like the way I described it. If any player is active (yellow arrow next to name) when the round ends; it locks them out the same way it would if they were the ones to trigger the new round.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Thezzaruz on Fri May 09, 2008 11:47 am

poo-maker wrote:Do you guys have any ideas in mind as to what you would like a new rule to be? We definitely don't want a rule change that resembles anything like the old system where players would play at the last minutes. Leaving only a couple of minutes for their opponent to play in that round.


As I see it it should work as it does now but with players being active when the clock runs out being counted the same as if they had activated the new turn. It won't be that big a difference but it should stop any blatant abuse of the "no back-to-back" rule.




Edit: That's what I get for having a smoke mid-post, pre-empted. :D
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby poo-maker on Fri May 09, 2008 11:50 am

treefiddy wrote:
poo-maker wrote:Do you guys have any ideas in mind as to what you would like a new rule to be? We definitely don't want a rule change that resembles anything like the old system where players would play at the last minutes. Leaving only a couple of minutes for their opponent to play in that round.


I like the way I described it. If any player is active (yellow arrow next to name) when the round ends; it locks them out the same way it would if they were the ones to trigger the new round.

Ah, ok... I don't mind this rule that much, but if i could decide, I wouldn't change it. It's a part of freestyle that I like. Though, I understand why people would like this to be implemented. It would make the game fairer.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby bbqpenguin on Fri May 09, 2008 3:50 pm

i would like to change my opinion, at least somewhat. i admit i didn't read the op well enough to fully understand it. i fully oppose using "running out of time" as a tactic and i agree that this is an exploitable loop hole. however, double turns taken via the lest person to take a turn on round x starting his next turn 2 seconds after another player starts on turn y should still be allowed
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby cramill on Fri May 09, 2008 5:11 pm

bbqpenguin wrote:i would like to change my opinion, at least somewhat. i admit i didn't read the op well enough to fully understand it. i fully oppose using "running out of time" as a tactic and i agree that this is an exploitable loop hole. however, double turns taken via the lest person to take a turn on round x starting his next turn 2 seconds after another player starts on turn y should still be allowed

Yes, nothing about starting your turn right after someone needs to be changed.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby cramill on Mon May 12, 2008 1:39 pm

Looks like theres been more discussion in the 'cheating' thread linked in the first post of this thread. Do we have any comments by the mods? Is this being discussed between the mods? Because, the other thread still says [Pending].
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Velvecarrots on Mon May 12, 2008 4:56 pm

I like the idea, but I have a question:

Dubs freestyle speed game no cards Classic 4 players. Elite players know that in these games running out of time is the best strategy. What happens when all 4 players run out of time, like in Game 2111453 for example? Do they all get locked out and miss a turn?

This probably also happens in 2 player speed no card games, but I'm too lazy to confirm it. :lol:
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby cramill on Mon May 12, 2008 5:16 pm

Velvecarrots wrote:I like the idea, but I have a question:

Dubs freestyle speed game no cards Classic 4 players. Elite players know that in these games running out of time is the best strategy. What happens when all 4 players run out of time, like in Game 2111453 for example? Do they all get locked out and miss a turn?

This probably also happens in 2 player speed no card games, but I'm too lazy to confirm it. :lol:

I guess that everyone would get to start at the beginning of the next round since no one actually ended their turn. But if everyone gets locked out, it wouldn't force any one to miss a turn, you would jut be locked out until half of the round passes.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby treefiddy on Tue May 13, 2008 10:33 am

That's two questions now that were answered by my original suggestion. ><
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby strokem1257 on Tue May 13, 2008 10:16 pm

need another example of the double turn.... take at look at what just happened to me... :cry:

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